Could an Atheist be a believer.
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So when you say atheist, you actually mean closet monotheist? I'm going by the common definition.
Yes and no.
What I'm saying is, if you have an atheist who does everything right, and a monotheist who does a lot of things wrong, then maybe the atheists are right?
and if the atheists are right, and monotheism is right, then the atheists are the true monotheists? -
I still don't get what you mean by atheist. And now I am confused as to what you think "monotheist" is.
Let me put it this way, if the person believes that they are the creation of God, they are not an atheist. If they believe they are the result of chance and there is no Creator, they are an atheist.
By this definition of atheist. It does not matter whether they are good or evil. Their works are wasted, because everything they do is a result of their own subjective decisions. An atheist cannot believe in objective morality because morality is not something tangible that can be determined using the scientific method/observation.
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There is some aya inthe Qur'an where it says something about worshiping Him by any of His names. For me it is quite plain that someone who practices and believes in truth, justice, mercy or any other of His names and considers him or herself as subservient to any of those names and acts consquently is undoubtedly a believer. In fact many die in peace precisely because they consider all those things above him or herself.
I think we put a lot of stock on the word god, and we debate about who believes in god or not, but, but many do not relate the word god to any of the names of God, because simply the word god has been so much abused to commit crimes or hide crimes against many of His names that they do not want any part in that travesty. They are in fact not denying that there is some ultimate value above them to which they are subservient, they are denying a state of mind whereby somebody entitles him or herself to rule over other creatures and harm them on account that"disbelief" he or she has this god who condones those actions. In fact in some good people disbelief in god is a reaction to an abuse of the idea "god" of those who claim to believe in Him when in fact they abuse His names.
As Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit.
Words do not serve only to tell the truth, they serve to lie and mislead.
And with this of course, I am not calling believers any authors of bad deeds and crimes commeted under the guise. I am speaking strictly about those people who sincerely do GOOD DEEDS because they follow their noble fitra to sere justice, mercy and truth, or any other Real Superior values.
Of course to find real good peopla like that is just as hard as to find them among the "believers". It is not that anybody who says I do not believe in God is automatically a believer in any of His other names, but there people like that. Also the fact that if they did say I believe in God for them carries a load of cowardise, of doing things because you are going to be punished or rewarded, and not because they are right, that is truthful, just or merciful. In fact theose who act like that are spiritually a step above those who act out of fear or expecting reward, even if their "wording" is off in just the one word "god" because of the dirt adhered to it through vain usage of the word.
Salaam
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Let me put it this way, if the person believes that they are the creation of God, they are not an atheist. If they believe they are the result of chance and there is no Creator, they are an atheist.
Is this a summary of the message of God?
And are these two the only options on the theory of creation?
What about setting partners with God when it's only done by those who believe God created them?
At least an atheist can never be a mushrik!! -
Salaam
believes in truth, justice, mercy or any other of His names and considers him or herself as subservient to any of those names and acts consquently is undoubtedly a believer. In fact many die in peace precisely because they consider all those things above him or herself.
What do you mean believes in truth, justice, mercy? Those are just values. They are not something tangible that you can believe in. Thats like saying I believe in cheating. What does it mean that someone believes in a value? Is the value going to benefit them somehow even though it is not even alive?
I think we put a lot of stock on the word god, and we debate about who believes in god or not, but, but many do not relate the word god to any of the names of God, because simply the word god has been so much abused to commit crimes or hide crimes against many of His names that they do not want any part in that travesty. They are in fact not denying that there is some ultimate value above them to which they are subservient, they are denying a state of mind whereby somebody entitles him or herself to rule over other creatures and harm them on account that"disbelief" he or she has this god who condones those actions. In fact in some good people disbelief in god is a reaction to an abuse of the idea "god" of those who claim to believe in Him when in fact they abuse His names.
Rather than disbelieving in God because of a few idiots who do crimes in his name. Why not just ignore the criminals and realize they are independent of God. Its not a valid excuse.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
And with this of course, I am not calling believers any authors of bad deeds and crimes commeted under the guise. I am speaking strictly about those people who sincerely do GOOD DEEDS because they follow their noble fitra to sere justice, mercy and truth, or any other Real Superior values.
The are not following their natural inclination unless they also believe in 1 God.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God?s creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
Let me pose a question. Why would they be "bound" to follow truth, justice etc. as part of their "natural inclination" when being an atheist means they are not "natural" as they are a product of chance (extremely low probability of life forming on its own, hardly what I would call "natural".
Of course to find real good peopla like that is just as hard as to find them among the "believers". It is not that anybody who says I do not believe in God is automatically a believer in any of His other names, but there people like that. Also the fact that if they did say I believe in God for them carries a load of cowardise, of doing things because you are going to be punished or rewarded, and not because they are right, that is truthful, just or merciful. In fact theose who act like that are spiritually a step above those who act out of fear or expecting reward, even if their "wording" is off in just the one word "god" because of the dirt adhered to it through vain usage of the word.
Well if it were not for a reward, why would human beings do anything? Our entire goal in life is to earn pleasure and minimize pain. What other motives are there? The only reason why a human being would forgo a reward in this life is because they believe in the ultimate Good in the next life.
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Is this a summary of the message of God?
And are these two the only options on the theory of creation?
What about setting partners with God when it's only done by those who believe God created them?
At least an atheist can never be a mushrik!!No its not a summary, but "Simple" has set the scope of this thread to atheists and believers.
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In fact an atheist should be happy that they were not born animals and subject to following their base (natural) instincts for their entire existence. They have the opportunity to maximize their happiness which their fellow "products of chance"/animals cannot. However this is extremely short sighted of them. They're future consists of a double negative. If they are right, nothing they do really matters, if they are wrong, God will not be happy that they rejected his signs. Thank God they are wrong.
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No its not a summary, but "Simple" has set the scope of this thread to atheists and believers.
According to the quraan, you can neither call yourself a "mu'min" nor can you call others "not mu'min". So the criterea is completely different according to God. Otherwise, if I can call myself believer/mu'mina just because I believe that God created me, why does God make a difference between mu'min and muslim, and forbade the "arabs" from calling themselves "mu'min"? (4914).
He also forbade us from calling others non believer/non mu'mins, not because they have a specific opinion about their creation, but because they throw peace to us. (494). So you see, the criterea of Gd for a mu'min is completely different from the popular one. -
I don't consider myself a believer as I don't meet that description so I agree that we should not call ourselves believers. But as for calling people a disbeliever that is allowed as long as we investigate carefully.
I have thought about whether I am a believer. I hope God sees me as one. But I still make so many mistakes ( We will only know on the day of judgment.
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Yes and no.
What I'm saying is, if you have an atheist who does everything right, and a monotheist who does a lot of things wrong, then maybe the atheists are right?
and if the atheists are right, and monotheism is right, then the atheists are the true monotheists?the difference between an athiest and montheist is that one beleives in god and the other not, regardless what a person does in life as a montheist it would be expected of them to do what is right, but if they dont abviously there are not good and not considered a good beleiver, but never the less they beleive in a god, where as an athiest, does not beleive period , so regardless if they do good all there life or not they will not enter heaven, remember god brought us on earth to worship him, " w ma 5alaqna l2ins wil jin 2ila liya3bodoon. god also says no matte rhow good a person is if they dont beleive in god they will lose all the good they did on earth and lose the hearafter.
as for an athiest can he be a beleiver, well if he/she started beleiveing in a god yes of course , its not like they are not human. again in this world there are 2 kinds beleivers and non beleivers and athiests can be one of either group.and if they do become beelivers abviously they are no longer athiests. -
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of God, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace ?You are not a believer!? You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favored you, so investigate carefully. God is expert over what you do.
OT The bolded line is inaccurately translated. The preposition used is "ilaikum= to you" not "3alaikum= upon you". It's "who throw peace to you". iman is action, not lip sevice.
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Atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
You have several levels of faith.
Atheist - denying God
Agnostic - not knowing, but not denying
Gnostic - Knowing.An atheist could tangent that of being religious, for instance, that of following law. But belief, no, and probably no religious practise.
But he obscures faith (kufr), or associates with God (shirk), when he says that, the universe is self-sufficient. And if that is not "a god", then their concept of Godly qualities are fairly theorized away, from "reasonable doubt".
I do not believe someone who calls himself atheist, can be a believer. However, he may be of little faith, at first stages of Islam. However, I doubt he would take the name atheist, rather agnostic.
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If somebody who lives selflessly to the point of self sacrifice for the good of others and who does good deeds all round needs to tick the right boxes in a test to see if he deserves God's mercy, then I think we are living in the world of magic, where words work miracles and deeds do not count, and not in the world of reality, where deeds count and words don't make things work. What one does is what shows one's belief. If one talks and doesn't do then there is no real belief, just self-delusion. If one does good deeds and doesn't talk about God, that may mean that he or she submits to higher values, atrributes of God, that are above him or her. When you say that a value is nothing, then you are also talking about words. If you put justice inside the box God, it is God, if you put it outside it is not. Boxes are boxes not reality. Justice is an atrribute of God, it is one of his names it doesn't matter in what box you put it. The person who serves justice to the point of selc sacrifice is serving God, it is not serving an idol. It is real. Justice is God's attribute. The person who loves justice loves God through His attributes. ?Or what do you think God means when He says worship me by my names? ?That we utter a bunch of words or that we do deeds that show His attributes? ?And what are we doing when we praise Him under those names but ask him to make us so that we serve Him under those attributes?
The people who deny God's existence in words may make some intellectual mistake, at whatever level, but if they are not arrogant, if their heart is not wrong, if their deeds are not wrong, I would be afraid of God's wrath to call them kufar. Believing in God is not for a reward, it is a reward in itself. If somebody does not expect a reward and still does good deeds, he or she understands reality better than those who do our of fear or expectation of reward, and they show really what they truly believe in, independently of ideological positionings.
Salaam
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4915 Believers are those who believe in God and His messenger, then they became without doubt, and they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones
82 The believers are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts reverence; and when His revelations are recited to them, it increases their faith; and they put their trust in their Lord.
No way an atheist can be a believer according to the Quran.
Peace all
The above verses are the final Judgment in this debate if the ones debating are True Believers; Otherwise, go on debating in order to reject the Truth that came in these verses.
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Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and vote 'no.' An atheist can be a great person and all but they're not a believer if they don't believe. Now, agnostics are a different story; if they believe there is a GOD but don't believe that we can know anything about that GOD. People who don't believe in a 'personal' GOD but who consider GOD as more transcendant than that, like an omnidimensional multiversal all-powerful entity, yeah, that's a believer. but people who believe in multiple gods or no dieties at all, I'm sure they can be great folks but I wouldn't consider them believers.
believing in things like 'truth' and 'justice' can be a little too subjective sometimes...
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I still don't get what you mean by atheist. And now I am confused as to what you think "monotheist" is.
Let me put it this way, if the person believes that they are the creation of God, they are not an atheist. If they believe they are the result of chance and there is no Creator, they are an atheist.
By this definition of atheist. It does not matter whether they are good or evil. Their works are wasted, because everything they do is a result of their own subjective decisions. An atheist cannot believe in objective morality because morality is not something tangible that can be determined using the scientific method/observation.
But that's where you're mistaken. Morality IS based on reason. It is completely independent from religion. In fact, it is the standard by which religions are judged. That wouldn't be possible if religions defined morality.
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There is some aya inthe Qur'an where it says something about worshiping Him by any of His names. For me it is quite plain that someone who practices and believes in truth, justice, mercy or any other of His names and considers him or herself as subservient to any of those names and acts consquently is undoubtedly a believer. In fact many die in peace precisely because they consider all those things above him or herself.
I think we put a lot of stock on the word god, and we debate about who believes in god or not, but, but many do not relate the word god to any of the names of God, because simply the word god has been so much abused to commit crimes or hide crimes against many of His names that they do not want any part in that travesty. They are in fact not denying that there is some ultimate value above them to which they are subservient, they are denying a state of mind whereby somebody entitles him or herself to rule over other creatures and harm them on account that"disbelief" he or she has this god who condones those actions. In fact in some good people disbelief in god is a reaction to an abuse of the idea "god" of those who claim to believe in Him when in fact they abuse His names.
As Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit.
Words do not serve only to tell the truth, they serve to lie and mislead.
And with this of course, I am not calling believers any authors of bad deeds and crimes commeted under the guise. I am speaking strictly about those people who sincerely do GOOD DEEDS because they follow their noble fitra to sere justice, mercy and truth, or any other Real Superior values.
Of course to find real good peopla like that is just as hard as to find them among the "believers". It is not that anybody who says I do not believe in God is automatically a believer in any of His other names, but there people like that. Also the fact that if they did say I believe in God for them carries a load of cowardise, of doing things because you are going to be punished or rewarded, and not because they are right, that is truthful, just or merciful. In fact theose who act like that are spiritually a step above those who act out of fear or expecting reward, even if their "wording" is off in just the one word "god" because of the dirt adhered to it through vain usage of the word.
Salaam
Some good points.
I don't think people would necessary disbelieve in "god" just to dissociate themselves from the crimes committed under his name.
I agree with pretty much everything else though. Even in your other post. Well said.
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Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and vote 'no.' An atheist can be a great person and all but they're not a believer if they don't believe. Now, agnostics are a different story; if they believe there is a GOD but don't believe that we can know anything about that GOD. People who don't believe in a 'personal' GOD but who consider GOD as more transcendant than that, like an omnidimensional multiversal all-powerful entity, yeah, that's a believer. but people who believe in multiple gods or no dieties at all, I'm sure they can be great folks but I wouldn't consider them believers.
believing in things like 'truth' and 'justice' can be a little too subjective sometimes...
How can truth and justice be subjective? As huruf said, if someone serves these attributes of god selflessly, isn't he serving god?
The only other way of judging a believer is by their words. Actions speak a lot louder than words. -
But that's where you're mistaken. Morality IS based on reason. It is completely independent from religion. In fact, it is the standard by which religions are judged. That wouldn't be possible if religions defined morality.
You realize how contradictory that is? A person doesn't believe in God because God is invisible. Yet this same person believes in values that are also invisible? God defines morality, without God there can be no morality. There can be Social Contract theory but that does not equate to morality. In order to have clear right and wrong it requires intelligent design and not random chance.