A Question About Jinns
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Peace everyone,
Ayman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 3414 which says
- So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.
Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?
Fantasies don?t know anything beyond what our senses can feed them. The products of our fantasies can be machines with sensors and so on but nothing that tells the non-physical hidden side. For example, in the case of Solomon?s death, the fantasies could have created a device to listen to the heartbeat or a heat sensing device to measure body temperature. However, all those devices are much like the falling of the staff that Solomon was leaning on. They provide a physical indication of death. They don?t peer into the hidden side to get the info directly.
There are only certain places where those meanings (i.e. "jinn"=fantasy) would actually fit. For example
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6130)
If jinn meant "fantasy", this would imply that our fantasies receive messengers from among the fantasies, and this is not logical.
Fantasies do indeed receive messages and messengers (all humans, including messengers have fantasies). Much of the great reading (all the allegorical passages that rely on our imagination) is directed towards fantasies.
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He was/became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! (1850)
Satan is here described among the angels, and this makes it illogical for him to be a fantasy after the scripture verifies his reality. A real person can't be or become a fantasy.
The problem is that you are thinking of ?malaika? in the sense of mythological angels, or winged people wearing white robes with halos hovering on the top of their heads. You are not thinking of them as controllers. A controller is not a specific specie but can be any specie. It is an attribute. Thus, 1850 says that Satan WAS a fantasy/jinn. A fantasy in control and given control of certain aspects of the universe is a controller. A controller by definition obeys the god. As soon as any controller (fantasy or other creature) disobeys the god then they cease to be a controller.
Satan is not a ?real person?. You are again thinking in terms of Judeo-Christian mythology of Satan being a red guy with horns and a pointy tail. The reality that we can empirically verify is that the ultimate source of all evil that we do is our fantasy not a guy with a huge fork.
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn. (5574)
If jinns are simply fantasies, then this verse would be illogical, since fantasies can't physically touch anything or anyone. There are other examples as well that show the concept to be more logical if jinns were actually a separate group of people/separate species of beings, not imaginary creatures.
Do you seriously think that 5574 is about virgins that no humans and alien ?species of beings? or guys with horns touched?
I think that it is more logical that the imagination didn?t touch them. In other words, we can?t even imagine them. This is empirically verifiable since we can?t even imagine what the mates in Chapter 55 will be like.
What does it mean to you when you say Satan was a controller? He was a controller of what?
Whatever matter the god gave control to Satan in. Controllers are given different things to control. We are given the example of the controller of death in the great reading.
As for Jinns, it seem to be very clear from Al-Quran that they are creatures, which share some of our characteristics... When we read Surah Al-Jinn, it says a group of Jinns were passing by and they heard the Quran being recited and they responded to it in a positive manner... So they have the ability to hear, think and reflect, detect the truth and formulate an opinion on issues... Same qualities that we have as humans... However, we should always focus on the CLEAR verses and not try to force interpretation and see things which are not there...
Fantasies are part of the human psyche. So they share and provide our characteristics. When we listen, they are listening too.
Even though "controller" is a more accurate translation of the Arabic word "malayka", from the scriptures, it is scripturally referring to the angelic beings, not those who physically control things. Indeed, Allah is the One who is in control of all things, and He is the controller. Satan (Iblis) was among the angelic beings, and he became a jinn.
The god gives control to whom he wills and takes it away from whom he wills. Being a controller is about being given control by the god. It is not about mythical angelic beings.
Satan was already a ?jinn? and control can be given to a ?jinn? by the god if he decides to do so. He simply stopped being a controller when he disobeyed the god.
I read Ayman's article, and it is incorrect in terms of an accurate translation of that verse. 5574 is a continuation of the previous verses, and after each one, the question arises, "Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?" This is followed by the statement
They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings. (5576)
Well, obviously this verse isn't speaking about jinns or about the human mind. It's speaking about the spouses/mates mentioned in 5570. So, in this case, "jinn" can't be referring to a "fantasy" since the verse is speaking about a physical touching.
Do you really think that green carpets like the ones that we are familiar with is what is being talked about here?
This is clearly an allegorical passage and it goes back to the fact that the fantasies can?t know the hidden. The god gives us those allegories so that our fantasy tries to comprehend and be guided but the reality of the hidden is not even close.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman
Your post shows how much you are convinced in what you are advocating.... )
No problem though... Our minds remain open and we should be using it to come to conclusions... It is good that you are defending your theory...
I have a question...
How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread... And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...
There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?
Can I send my fantasy to someone else? Or command it to do so and so...
Will wait for your reply.
Peace brother.
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How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread... And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...
Have you ever seen that happening? Is there any evidence beside anecdotal evidence of such a thing happening? Perhaps it's only the so-called "possessed person" who's talking.
There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?
I think the person themselves had buried the list of names and spoke from memory. People do crazy things for attention and tales of possession normally come from places where the people are generally uneducated and therefore more likely to be superstitious. In almost all the stories I've heard about witchcraft and possession, the incidents of witchcraft and possession occurred in villages.
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Peace
I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
Regards
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I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
yes always a friend of a friend had such experiences... but... your phone call is innovative )
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Peace,
I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people...
Please forgive me, but I think that's rather unwise. Your belief that possession is real is based on hearsay, which is the worst reason to believe something.
Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
There are a trillion reasons why people yell and cry. The person you're talking about could've been in a lot of pain and misery. I think belief in possession can be dangerous because a person's strange behaviour can be due to something very serious. Dismissing something that's serious as a case of possession will leave that serious issue unresolved.
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Peace WayFinder,
Your post shows how much you are convinced in what you are advocating.... )
No problem though... Our minds remain open and we should be using it to come to conclusions... It is good that you are defending your theory...
I have a question...
How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread... And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...
There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?
Can I send my fantasy to someone else? Or command it to do so and so...I have no doubt that "possession" from fantasies exist and this is scientifically proven. In fact, we all risk to one degree or another being possessed by our fantasy if we let it get out of control.
Most children have "imaginary friends", which are products of their vivid fantasies. Most children grow out of imaginary friends but some don't and continue to have them into adulthood. This may signal a serious psychological disorder. A friend of mine in college had an imaginary friend into her adulthood. This imaginary friend was amazingly real to my friend. She told me, for example, that her imaginary friend would do things like comb her hair. I think that in the case of my friend, this imaginary friend was a reaction to emotional and family problems. When she was happy, this imaginary friend disappeared.
In adults this may develop into what is known as Doppelganger syndrome. Some may even have imaginary friends who are frightening and abusive. In extreme cases, those who completely lose control over their fantasy may develop Schizophrenia and become detached from reality and live in their own fantasy world of imaginary friends and enemies.
Unfortunately, because of the stigma of mental illness it mostly goes undiagnosed and untreated even in developed countries. In developing countries, the situation is much worse and not only are such mundane mental illnesses left undiagnosed and untreated, things are made worse by superstition and exorcism. Exorcists prey on such cases and feed the fantasies of the person and those around him or her to make monetary gains.
If your friends and relatives from whom you heard those stories really care about the "possessed" person then they should try to get them to see a good psychotherapist.
Our fantasy/"jinn" can be a positive tool. However, if we let it control us then it can become a destructive tool. When fantasy is controlled with the truth then humans progress. For example, when our fantasy about flying met the truth about the laws of aerodynamics, we made airplanes. The natural order of things is that fantasy/"jinn" should be obedient ("sujud" to us but it refused. So we need to control it with the truth or it will lead us to our doom.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Please forgive me, but I think that's rather unwise. Your belief that possession is real is based on hearsay, which is the worst reason to believe something.
There are a trillion reasons why people yell and cry. The person you're talking about could've been in a lot of pain and misery. I think belief in possession can be dangerous because a person's strange behaviour can be due to something very serious. Dismissing something that's serious as a case of possession will leave that serious issue unresolved.
Peace
You think I am relying on HEARSAY like HADITHS??
In case of hadith, all of the person who heard and the one who spoke are dead, so no verification...
The one case I am talking about is that of my very close friend's brother... And his story is really one of the most strange...
He gets the attacks almost at same time every day, in the beginning of the nightfall, and he keeps in pain for the whole night, yelling and crying... When asked where he has the pain, he shows somewhere, and you will see that part of the body a little swollen, and guess what, after sometime, this swell moves to another part of his body, and it keeps moving as well as the pain...
At times, he will run away from home... on foot... And hours later, people will find him in another town and phone to his parents to come and fetch him... No matter in what closing he is, even in pyjamas... he runs away... And most of the time, he is found in front on hindu temples or burial grounds... Of couse, when asked about these escapes, he just knows nothing about it... His mother will hide the key in different places, when he is not around to know the hiding place, and when everyone is asleep, we do not know how he finds the key, open the door without anyone hearing and dissappears in the dark...
Once he was taking his bath and fell unconscious, when he regain consciousness, there were all kinds of marks on his body... like nail scratches from his neck down to his chest... There are so much more... Believe me man, this is not a story I am making.... This thing is really happening every day... and it has been happening since SEVEN YEARS!
Do not think that the guy did not consult a doc... he undergone all sort of diagnosis and they revealed nothing, he do not have even the most benign type disease ...
There was only one time I witness such weird happening, it was with a kid at school... suddenly his eyeballs flipped on the side... like he lost control on his eyes docs etc could not figure whats wrong with the kid... Later, he started to speak weird things and in ANOTHER VOICE... Can a child get an adult voice overnight? When the people recite the Quran to him, the Jinn speaks and tells who sent him to the boy and so on...
There are so many jinn stories here my friends...
regards
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Peace
You think I am relying on HEARSAY like HADITHS??
In case of hadith, all of the person who heard and the one who spoke are dead, so no verification...
The one case I am talking about is that of my very close friend's brother... And his story is really one of the most strange...
He gets the attacks almost at same time every day, in the beginning of the nightfall, and he keeps in pain for the whole night, yelling and crying... When asked where he has the pain, he shows somewhere, and you will see that part of the body a little swollen, and guess what, after sometime, this swell moves to another part of his body, and it keeps moving as well as the pain...
At times, he will run away from home... on foot... And hours later, people will find him in another town and phone to his parents to come and fetch him... No matter in what closing he is, even in pyjamas... he runs away... And most of the time, he is found in front on hindu temples or burial grounds... Of couse, when asked about these escapes, he just knows nothing about it... His mother will hide the key in different places, when he is not around to know the hiding place, and when everyone is asleep, we do not know how he finds the key, open the door without anyone hearing and dissappears in the dark...
Once he was taking his bath and fell unconscious, when he regain consciousness, there were all kinds of marks on his body... like nail scratches from his neck down to his chest... There are so much more... Believe me man, this is not a story I am making.... This thing is really happening every day... and it has been happening since SEVEN YEARS!
Do not think that the guy did not consult a doc... he undergone all sort of diagnosis and they revealed nothing, he do not have even the most benign type disease ...
There was only one time I witness such weird happening, it was with a kid at school... suddenly his eyeballs flipped on the side... like he lost control on his eyes docs etc could not figure whats wrong with the kid... Later, he started to speak weird things and in ANOTHER VOICE... Can a child get an adult voice overnight? When the people recite the Quran to him, the Jinn speaks and tells who sent him to the boy and so on...
There are so many jinn stories here my friends...
regards
what has his family done about it , if it has been going on for 7 years, why havent they gotten the right help
this will kill the boy mentally, i wish i can help him....... he has to learn how to control them , they cant harm him if he controls them, how old is he. -
what has his family done about it , if it has been going on for 7 years, why havent they gotten the right help
this will kill the boy mentally, i wish i can help him....... he has to learn how to control them , they cant harm him if he controls them, how old is he.The right help means? Now the guys is in his twenties... The family only recite the Quran on him... Nothing more...
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The right help means? Now the guys is in his twenties... The family only recite the Quran on him... Nothing more...
there is only one way to counterattack jinn, god says in the quran that the shaytan can not come near a mo2min,that person possessed must become a mo2min and understand the meanng of it, the concept of a mo2min only then would he be able to control them, his attacks might get worsen for a while because the jinn is fearing the iman within the body, slowly they will either leave him or submit themselves, but only he can do this none can do it for him, he needs to confront them as well as speak to them let him show them he is not afraid of them, the only way a jinn can control a human is through ther faith how much they truley have
anyway you can messege me, i really would like to help........ -
The Quran clearly states that Satan was an angel, by virtue of the immense powers and rank bestowed upon him. This is why he is addressed as an angel (234, 711, 1529, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3871) prior to his fall. By definition, a jinn is a fallen angel (1850). Satan's rebellion teaches us that the angels were created with minds of their own, and absolute freedom of choice (234).
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All of you have presented interesting concepts and theories. I however know what a jinn is. Why do jinn and jinnah have the same root word? Because jinn are the people of jinnah, or the orijinnal inhabitants of eden. This is clearly explained in jinnesis in the bible. And is also explained in surah 2 of the quran. When Adam was put here there was someone already here, the Jinn. This confusion is why science and spirituality so often appear to be irreconcilable, when they are one and the same. Scripture only traces mans beginning back several thousand years. Yet science traces the presence of man back millions. Quran 1527 states "And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire.". Often we do not realize the depths of the deceivers influence on our perception. Jinn is the root word of aborijinnal. Mankind and Jinn are two different races of people. Before you reject these truths do yourself the favor of investigating. Every race on earth is Man, Jinn or varying degrees of mixture. A jinn can initiate a possession, but does not physically enter the possessed individual themself. Jews are not Jinn, I am a Jinn.
Peace and Blessings -
We must stop equating Jinn with Devil, this is a christian racist notion, and is the foundation of many of the problems We deal with today. "Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary - devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;" Here We can clearly see the distinction between My people (Jinn) and the Devil.
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Peace "MuchMuur",
You still haven't mentioned what exactly a jinn is. What differentiates a jinn from a human? What do jinns look like, and where do they live? These are some important questions that need to be answered.
Also, what about Qur'aanic passages like this
Did I not take a covenant with you, you children of Adam, that you shall not worship the devil, that he is your most ardent enemy? (3660)
If the jinn beings were already present on this earth by the time Adam was formed and placed upon it, then the jinns are NOT children of Adam. So, why didn't G-d mention taking a covenant with the jinns? Why only the humans (children of Adam)? Isn't the devil an enemy of the jinns too?
You children of Adam, do not let the devil dupe you as he did when he caused the eviction of your parents from the garden, and the removal of their garments to expose their bodies... (727)
Again, is this saying that the jinns were NOT expelled from the garden? In other words, are they still in the "paradise"? Why doesn't the Qur'aan mention them in this passage? Why only the children of Adam? Here's an interesting point the scriptures mention
He is Who created you from one soul/self/person. And He made from HER a spouse to be secure to HER, so when he covered her, she bore a light weigh... (7189)
Now, what does this have to do with the subject at hand? Simple. Since the Qur'aan is a message to the entire world, this passage emphasizes that we all, humans and jinns, come from ONE PERSON. However, this person was NOT Adam, it was his wife (the passage repeatedly refers to "her". So, since humans are called "bani Adam", then the jinns must be the descendants of someone else other than Adam. And the only other person mentioned as being banished to this earth was Iblis, the one who rejected. Therefore, Iblis must've reproduced with Eve (Adam's wife) to produce the race of jinns, who are a separate race from the humans.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Now, what does this have to do with the subject at hand? Simple. Since the Qur'aan is a message to the entire world, this passage emphasizes that we all, humans and jinns, come from ONE PERSON. However, this person was NOT Adam, it was his wife (the passage repeatedly refers to "her". So, since humans are called "bani Adam", then the jinns must be the descendants of someone else other than Adam. And the only other person mentioned as being banished to this earth was Iblis, the one who rejected. Therefore, Iblis must've reproduced with Eve (Adam's wife) to produce the race of jinns, who are a separate race from the humans.
Peace,
Ahmad
Wow, normally I'm very open minded to various opinions, but those statements above are assumptions with no logical basis. There is way too much that we do not know about everything that relates to the story of Adam. To simply create statements out of one or two variables is a good way to create a faulty foundation.
The Quran clearly states that Satan was an angel, by virtue of the immense powers and rank bestowed upon him. This is why he is addressed as an angel (234, 711, 1529, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3871) prior to his fall. By definition, a jinn is a fallen angel (1850). Satan's rebellion teaches us that the angels were created with minds of their own, and absolute freedom of choice (234).
I don't know that the Quran clearly states that Iblees was an angel. It might be implied, and even then by association only. And only then if whoever is making the implication can state what the nature an "angel" might be. Linguistically "angel" is originated from the greek for messenger. This doesn't work with the arabic word Malaak, which is closer to "controller" as was previously stated. We know that Djinn and Man were created, from the essence of fire and the essence of clay, respectively. I haven't been able to find a place in the Reading that mentions that Mala'ikah were created entities, let alone from light or what have you. This indicates to me that a Malaak is more of a title or a function.
In my understanding, the act of the Sajdah commanded of Mala'ikah to Adam can be interpreted as the forces of the universe and all that controls them "re-arranging themselves" in favor of this new creation. Like the way everything on earth is "man-sized" and how the moon and sun and stars seem to be convenient in how they make our lives easier. One of the reasons why mankind always felt they were the center of the universe.
The Mala'ikah could be composed of an innumerable number of creations, with Iblis of the Djinn being one of them. Perhaps the Malaak of gravity, math, chemistry, etc. all acquiesced and submitted to Man except the Malaak of passion, unpredictability and desire represented by fire. God knows best.
As far as the Djinn are concerned, the Qur'an indicates to me that they are a separate entity from us 2739 and 727 for example.
I think the confusion comes in when we try to fit all the concepts of the unseen into the small cube of our existence. We are creatures that live in the third-dimension. Can we really grasp the real nature of that which exists in dimensions that are beyond our own? We know that every higher dimension contains the entirety of the dimensions below it. However lesser dimensions only experience aspects of higher dimensions as only they intersect with them.
To the two dimensional being, everything it will see will be in two dimensions. If a two dimensional being were to see us, they wouldn't understand us. A two dimensional cutout of you will look like an MRI slide. However if they catch us at the right "slice" they will be able to recognize that we have eyes and the like and then talk about us around a campfire.
Djinn and all things of the "beyond" might be nebulous but they can also just be beyond our comprehension, doesn't mean they don't exist as sentient beings. As for the Shayateen al-Jinn, the method of their interaction with us could be through our fantasies and emotions. The same way as the Shayateen of the marketing industries interact with us through our desires and emotions.
Just because I believe these entities might be sentient does not mean that I believe they will look like anything hollywood or our imaginations can come up with. There is no reason for them to be required to submit to the same laws of the universe as we do, they do not have to be biological, physical or even quantum mechanical. Simply because the Mala'ikah have sajadu to us does not mean they have recreated the entirety of reality in our image. We are an arrogant race.