Could an Atheist be a believer.
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It is not guilt when we feel bad about others less fortunate than us. It is more like sympathy.
I would say something good should be done for the sake of it. We should do the right thing because it is right, not because it benefits us. Although it does end up benefiting is more often than not.
When we do things for our own good (like most people do), we end up sacrificing our principles when the going gets tough. People are only moral as long as it is easy. That's not how it should be.If someone helps the poor for the sake of helping the poor, he is not serving himself but serving something higher than himself. I'd say he is a believer.
Reasons for when someone helps another person consciously are always going to be selfish in someway. When someone helps the poor, it may be that they feel bad for them, and as a result they have a sort of lust to help them. If they do not satisfy this lust, they won't be able to relieve themselves of the guilt and of feeling bad for the less fortunate person. They are therefore not doing the good deed for the sake of it.
For example, I often help others, not for the sake of it, but because seeing a smile on their face as a result of what I've done for them makes me feel happy. The goal for me is that feeling of satisfaction and happiness.
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I really don't understand what you're getting at. What does survival of the fittest have to do with this?
Let me put it this way. For an atheist the only action they should be concerned with is improving their personal chances of survival. Would you agree with this?
The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. Please explain if you believe otherwise.
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Person B through getting praise gets satisfaction and happiness from feeding the poor, so it is perfectly logical that he feed them.
Yes but Lobster has already ruled out those people as "believers"
But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
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what would you say of a satanist who actually believes in doing good things to others but only based on an ethic of reciprocity, not becvause its inherently good itself, they actually will say they reject God and worship satan and then openly do good things in order to furhter their cause, many are confused by the satanist creed when they see satanists arent out killing pweople and committing crimes, they believe in doing good but only because it will advance their own interests on earth, they deny an eternal punishment or power of Gods judgement, so are they doing good and living by GOds ethic, though they openly reject and deny, they still go therough all the motions if it benefits them personaly and temporily. Are they still believers then?
Peace bro,
Its becoming clearer to me that there are certain Quranic Criteria that need to be in place before you can be a "believer". It cannot be from actions alone. I cannot imagine an atheist doing something because it is "inherently good" because "matter" does not provide any evidence that it contains this quality. So because an atheist cannot deduce it objectively that means all their deeds are because of subjective bias. -
salam.
allah says, when asked of your faith, say you are of the faith of ibrahim who was ever the obedient one.
a person saying they are atheist is disobediance to allah. it is not obedience to claim atheism as their faith.
therefore the person who claims atheism is not of the faith.
allah is the truth.
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Peace to all,
I have to say, this is a good post, some of the best arguments ive seen in awhile on the forum. My opinions are actually closer to bro aalmaktos, though Lobster makes many good points. For the sake of argument though, LObster, just doing things that one coniders good is really not enough, and does not make a believer, what would you say of a satanist who actually believes in doing good things to others but only based on an ethic of reciprocity, not becvause its inherently good itself, they actually will say they reject God and worship satan and then openly do good things in order to furhter their cause, many are confused by the satanist creed when they see satanists arent out killing pweople and committing crimes, they believe in doing good but only because it will advance their own interests on earth, they deny an eternal punishment or power of Gods judgement, so are they doing good and living by GOds ethic, though they openly reject and deny, they still go therough all the motions if it benefits them personaly and temporily. Are they still believers then?
Kurt
We've already covered this point, Kurt. As the quran says, you have to do good for the sake of god. God is represented by all the divine qualities like mercy, graciousness, etc. These qualities are how god is manifested on earth. So if you serve these qualities with sincerity and without selfishness, you are serving god.
Doing good things to further your own cause doesn't make you a believer. Because as soon as good actions stop benefitting you, you stop doing them. You have to believe in doing the right thing no matter what. Even if it kills you you do the right thing...but maybe that's going too far I dunno.
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Reasons for when someone helps another person consciously are always going to be selfish in someway. When someone helps the poor, it may be that they feel bad for them, and as a result they have a sort of lust to help them. If they do not satisfy this lust, they won't be able to relieve themselves of the guilt and of feeling bad for the less fortunate person. They are therefore not doing the good deed for the sake of it.
For example, I often help others, not for the sake of it, but because seeing a smile on their face as a result of what I've done for them makes me feel happy. The goal for me is that feeling of satisfaction and happiness.
It's not true that people only do good for selfish reasons.
A lot of times people go through great pains to do something for others. I know I've suffered a few times just to do a favor for a friend. I'd much rather not done those things but I felt like I should, so I did.
People put their lives in danger to save others. You can't possibly think that seeing that smile on the person's face is more important to them than their instinct to survive.
there are many examples of people suffering to help others.
Even when you give money away to charity, you are hurting yourself. There are always mixed emotions. And the people who feel good about helping others CHOOSE to focus on the positive emotions.
And that obviously connects to our focus (qibla) which always has to be in the right direction. It all connects. -
salam.
allah says, when asked of your faith, say you are of the faith of ibrahim who was ever the obedient one.
a person saying they are atheist is disobediance to allah. it is not obedience to claim atheism as their faith.
therefore the person who claims atheism is not of the faith.
allah is the truth.
Again you are putting too much stock in words and meaningless titles.
"Allah is the truth?" What does that mean? That can mean so many different things. So many wrong things, too.God is just a term....maybe we are misinterpreting it. Maybe we're not understanding it properly. What I'm arguing for is a critical look at our definitions.
Why is it that a person who CLAIMS to be a believer more of a believer than a person who actually does what a believer should?
Maybe the person who's actions are correct is a believer? Maybe the difference is only on the surface - in the form of words and mixed up terminology? -
Let me put it this way. For an atheist the only action they should be concerned with is improving their personal chances of survival. Would you agree with this?
The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. Please explain if you believe otherwise.
No, no. Here, the definiton of atheist we are using is a person who denies the existence of god. That's it.
He can be a carbon copy of a muslim, except for that fact. -
No, no. Here, the definiton of atheist we are using is a person who denies the existence of god. That's it.
He can be a carbon copy of a muslim, except for that fact.Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
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Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
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They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
Please then, explain the logic behind this hypothetical atheists actions.
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Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
I think you are taking the dog by the queue. we are talking not about acting in order to feel better but out of conviction. Moved by what you say people will go only so far, in fact not very far.
And it is our deeds what show our REAL deep down belief, not wht we say we believe, not what we think we believe, but what we stand on beyond any worldly posturing. If deep down we do not believe, we do not act. The proof of what we really believe, beyond any mental delusion, is our deeds.
Salaam
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The qeustion to be asked is what is properly meant by "God", "Good", and "Unbelief". For example suppose I say God is gravity. So an atheist must then deny gravity to be a atheist. I think "atheist" is a meaningless word.
Salam,
Good example L.Hu which lets us see a clear answer.....An atheist is a Kaffir....one who covers over the truth.
They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
Exactly!
Belief is defined by actions not labels.
A thief may claim to believe that stealing is wrong. But the fact that he steals is the TRUE evidence of his belief. So therefore he is lying.
No one goes against their own personal belief system....Makes you think doesn't it? Everything you DO is evidence of your belief....What ever your faults are what ever your transgressions are....as long as you are still doing them actively they are evidence of your TRUE belief regardless of what you say you believe.Words are just expressions of what we observe and what we are thinking (which is also a form of personal observation). They are a similitude/example they are nothing but sounds in and of themselves. They are used to get us to the point of understanding these observations clearly. Once we understand that, we can understand how to recognize the definition of belief.
Salam,
Arnab -
You've got it all wrong Lobster. It's not that words are more important than actions, it's that words ARE actions.
Saying "I believe in GOD" then doing things GOD recommends against, or neglecting to do things GOD recomends to do, shows a lack of belief in GOD. If they really believed in GOD they would do those things to the best of their ability because they know GOD knows better than them. Not only are they a liar but a hypocrite and it's up to GOD to determine their forgiveness and mercy.
However, saying "I don't believe in GOD" is an act of atheism and is disbelief. They don't have divine guidance and have to determine for themselves what is good and what is bad.
Consider the example of your thief. A monotheist knows thievery of any kind is unacceptable in GODs moral code, and will not steal.
However, an atheist could argue that private property is a human invention and there's nothing wrong with doing whatever is in your physical ability -- taking risks and facing consequences is part of life. Suddenly the act of theft changes from "Stealing another persons posession" to "liberating resources from those who don't need them." Stealing is actually working towards the 'greater good' in this mindset, but another atheist may still claim stealing is wrong for an entirely different set of reasons.
WIth atheism everything gets foggy and subjective. One could justify almost any action they wanted to. No, I don't trust atheists. They're not believers in anything I believe in.
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The atheist is indeed silly in his rejection of God, or idols, and unaware of his description of his universe, as selfsufficient. Is that not indeed the same attribute of God? ) They do exactly the same as the idolaters of old, and give attributes of God, to created things.
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Rsw, how can words be actions? They are quite different. I can say whatever I like, but I only DO what I believe deep down inside. As you yourself said, I can say I believe in god, but my actions might be completely different.
I have already addressed all the points you made in your post.
The example you gave about the thief...I think you mean that people can have false beliefs about what is right and wrong. That's true, but here we are talking about someone who knows stealing is wrong (most of the time)...someone who has the right beliefs.
There's this friend of mine who considers herself an atheist but she doesn't steal, doesn't drink, doesn't lie or cheat, she's even very polite unlike myself.
That is the kind of person we are talking about. Who always does the right thing. How can his beliefs not be right if his actions are?Nothing is getting subjective here. Morality is very much objective. The truth is clear from falsehood, as the quran says.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe, rather than judging their beliefs by their actions.
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salam lobster.
how can words be actions? They are quite different.
rsw is correct. spoken words are the action of the mouth. written words are the action of the hand.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe
allah had the quran spoken to us therefore i put a lot of stock in what allah says.
what a person thinks is irrelevant, until they justify a particular thought, by an action.for example you have justified your thought, that atheism is, to you, an acceptable practice, by the act of creating this thread.
allah is the truth.