The true Islam
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peace AB,
Also, "edges of the day" and "adjacent parts of the night" would fit together in one mold, and this would make perfect sense, if "zulfa" meant "adjacent". But it doesn't mean "adjacent", it means "near" or "part of" something. Therefore, if the verse said the "zulfa" of the night, it would literally be speaking about a part of the night, most applied to the near/beginning/onsetting part of it. This would also apply to "zulufan", which is a plural actually designating THREE OR MORE. The "adjacent" parts of the night would fit with the edges of the day if both were forming one designated time period, namely 2 frames (i.e. morning and evening). However, since "zulufan" is speaking about THREE OR MORE, there's no way it can apply to the same two times unless these are only part of it's time frame (i.e. morning, evening, and part of the night). So, either way, "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat.
Before I comment any further, did you read the following or not?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991If you did, and still say "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat." then please disprove the above before I comment further.
Thanks.
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Peace Wakas,
Before I comment any further, did you read the following or not?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991Yes, I did.
If you did, and still say "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat." then please disprove the above before I comment further.
Wait, so you're saying "zulufan min al-layl" IS sunset?
I can understand how, since the night merges into the day, the near/beginning parts of the night could be regarded as sunset itself, and this is very logical. However, why would "wa" be used as a continuation marker instead of a dividing marker? For example, when interpreting
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day (at morning and evening), and the near parts of the night (at sunset). The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
This would provide a redundant statement, since sunset is regarded as part of the evening. If you're talking about salaat at (1) morning and (2) evening until the darkness of the night ("ghasaqi al-layl", this could make sense. But the word "wa"/and splits these times up, making that statement illogical.
Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God's bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the salaat and give zakaat and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God's forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful. (7320)
This speaks of reading the Quran in the same sense of upholding the salaat, and this is spoken of as being done by Mohammed and his followers (1) 2/3 of the night, (2) 1/2 of it, and (3) 1/3 of it. Now, this is clearly speaking about THREE distinct time periods, not a continuation.
Let's say, hypothetically, that "night"/layl equals 12 hours (i.e. 6pm-6am).
a. 12 x 2/3 = 8
b. 12 x 1/2 = 6
c. 12 x 1/3 = 4Since the scripture says that he would "rise" for the salaat, this is most likely speaking of the morning prayer (i.e. before sunrise), which is still considered part of the night. Later, the evening prayer would take place (i.e. at/after sunset), which is still considered the night. Now, the marker between the end of the night salaat and the morning salaat would be "half", or approximately around midnight. One-third of this would be 10pm, and two-thirds of this would be around 2am. Since there's no clear distinction of these times, since both are dark at night, God tells them that He knows 'they won't be able to keep up', and this is why He pardons them. This would form a clear indication of why the night salaat ("layl" is considered the "middle" AND "best" salaat - regardless of the translation, both these terms (223 would convey an accurate message about the night salaat. It is in the middle, directly between the evening and morning; and it is the best because it is "extra" (1779), and many are not able to "keep up" with completing it.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Wakas,
Where did you get this from?
It was said in the other topic you posted, by either you or Ayman...
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Hate to break it to you, but detailed discussion has taken place on the number of "salat" and the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2 per day. As far I'm aware, no long term member disagrees with this.
Of course, I know that it is irrelevant who or how many agree with 2 or not, my point is if this many people who have read the detailed discussions think it's 2, then I strongly recommend doing significant research if you feel it is not 2.
Salaam Wakas
Often people leave this forum because of the stubbornness of some long term members, and therefore their opinion has no bearing on what is a conclusive answer. Salat performed on the day of gathering clearly shows that there is a middle prayer, which was performed in congregation once a week, unless the day of gathering was not weekly but, perhaps on the feast of Hajj. The case of Suleyman who missed the middle prayer due to his preoccupation with the horses, strongly indicates the existence of this prayer.
peace -
Salaam Wakas
Often people leave this forum because of the stubbornness of some long term members, and therefore their opinion has no bearing on what is a conclusive answer. Salat performed on the day of gathering clearly shows that there is a middle prayer, which was performed in congregation once a week, unless the day of gathering was not weekly but, perhaps on the feast of Hajj. The case of Suleyman who missed the middle prayer due to his preoccupation with the horses, strongly indicates the existence of this prayer.
peacepeace farida,
Those verses you reference have been discussed in significant detail before, and so have the points you raise. I'm sorry, but not you or AB have brought anything new to the table.
If you or AB or anyone feels so strongly about it, feel free to write a detailed article on the topic.
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Peace Wakas,
Please quote me directly or if you fail to do so, correct your statement.
I went back, and I believe that statement was made by Ayman, who I believe is also a contender for the two daily salaat. So, my apologies for putting those words on you... However, this still doesn't explain the passage in 7320, which clearly mentions THREE
Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God's bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the salaat and give zakaat and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God's forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful. (7320)
This verse is speaking about studying the Quran in the same context as holding the salaat, and it describes THREE distinct periods for them. There's no point in posting my opinion on the salaat to contradict your theory because the Quran already states the refutation.
You said
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 1778.
So, as you can see, 1778 AND 11114 are needed together for clarification and to confirm a time-range.
This is incorrect, since the Quran clearly confirms the time-ranges for salaat in ALL of the mentioned verses, and 1778, 79 and 11114 are speaking of the exact same time periods (i.e. morning, evening, and night).
Keep up salaat from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night (i.e. evening), and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed. (177
This is speaking about evening and morning recitation and salaat. The verse that directly follows it (1779) is clearly speaking about the night. So, you can use 1778, 79 to confirm and clarify the time range, but they both do a sufficient job in confirming their own time ranges individually. Regarding 11114, there is no confusion; the two ends/edges of the daytime are (1) morning/sunrise and (2) evening/sunset. There's no mistaking this, and the people of Mohammed's time knew exactly what the edges of the day were. So, obviously "zulufan min allayl" is talking about a time separate from the other two, not defining them. It specifies THREE OR MORE times during the night, and this is the same specification given in 7320, which mentions THREE TIMES during the night. Do you believe this to be coincidence?
God knows best.
Peace,
Ahmad
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How long do the Muslim prayers last? Is it the full time from sunset to night time?
017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed.017.079
YUSUFALI And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!
PICKTHAL And some part of the night awake for it, a largess for thee. It may be that thy Lord will raise thee to a praised estate.
SHAKIR And during a part of the night, pray Tahajjud beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a position of great glory. -
peace AB,
Thanks for correcting yourself with regards to me. However, if you feel brother Ayman said it, please quote him directly or correct your statement about him too.
First, let me critique your response in order to clarify it
However, this still doesn't explain the passage in 7320, which clearly mentions THREE
Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God's bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the salaat and give zakaat and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God's forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful. (7320)
This verse is speaking about studying the Quran in the same context as holding the salaat, and it describes THREE distinct periods for them.
It mentions 3 lengths of time. Fractions of the night.
It more likely is emphasising the night salat/bond is an extra, and reminding them of upholding of the salat/bond (i.e. 2x per day).This is speaking about evening and morning recitation and salaat. The verse that directly follows it (1779) is clearly speaking about the night. So, you can use 1778, 79 to confirm and clarify the time range, but they both do a sufficient job in confirming their own time ranges individually.
No they don't. Where is the end point from these verses for the morning recitation, like the end point is given for salat al isha?
Regarding 11114, there is no confusion; the two ends/edges of the daytime are (1) morning/sunrise and (2) evening/sunset. There's no mistaking this, and the people of Mohammed's time knew exactly what the edges of the day were.
No problem with this. The above is not time-ranges however, they are times. This is a point you seem unable to grasp.
So, obviously "zulufan min allayl" is talking about a time separate from the other two, not defining them. It specifies THREE OR MORE times during the night, and this is the same specification given in 7320, which mentions THREE TIMES during the night.
Firstly, 11114 says "near parts (3 or more) of the night" NOT 3 or more times during the night. Quranic night only has 3 parts (evening twilight, dark night, morning twilight), thus unless you intend to uphold the salat/bond the whole night, you will not fulfill the criteria.
Secondly, you will have to explain away The Quran's use of "near". Quite simply, "near" what according to you?
And lastly, to prove conclusively beyond doubt, if you assign 'salat al isha' as "until the darkness of the night" then that is already one part of Quranic night used (i.e. evening twilight), thus for one to uphold the night salat for 3 or more near parts of the night as you suggest is an impossibility.
One of the most astounding features of The Quran is its logical precision. It humbles me every time.
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peace farida,
Those verses you reference have been discussed in significant detail before, and so have the points you raise. I'm sorry, but not you or AB have brought anything new to the table.
If you or AB or anyone feels so strongly about it, feel free to write a detailed article on the topic.
Salaam Wakas
You are now talking like some sunni scholars who ask for qualifications when confronted, why do we have to write a detailed article about something quite obvious. Previously I pointed to you an article written by Edip regarding three salah (prayers) which I found convincing, and you said "I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed" I am still waiting for you to refute his article.
peace -
Peace Wakas,
It mentions 3 lengths of time. Fractions of the night.
It more likely is emphasising the night salat/bond is an extra, and reminding them of upholding of the salat/bond (i.e. 2x per day).So, if the passage is encouraging the muslims/submitters to uphold the salaat TWO times per day, then why would it mention the THIRD (i.e. during the night) at all? Yes, it mentions it being "extra", but it is still recommended in 7320. The fractions of the night are periods of the night salaat observance. I didn't say anyone has to observe all three of these times, but I think they should observe all three of the salaat, which includes one of those three time periods during the night.
No they don't. Where is the end point from these verses for the morning recitation, like the end point is given for salat al isha?
Why would there be an "end point" mentioned? The Quran doesn't give a specific time limit for each salaat observance, so there's no need for an end point. Regarding the separation between the periods of salaat, it's not too difficult to tell the difference between evening, night, and morning, especially when weighed against the sky's features (i.e. sunset, dark night, and sunrise). The "end point" of the 'salaat al esha' was most likely given to separate the evening prayer and the night prayer because the evening prayer would conclude during the night. None of the others could be confused like this.
No problem with this. The above is not time-ranges however, they are times. This is a point you seem unable to grasp.
I didn't say these were time frames. The Quran says that the salaat observances are TIMED, or based on a specific timings, such as morning, evening, and night.
Secondly, you will have to explain away The Quran's use of "near". Quite simply, "near" what according to you?
Firstly, 11114 says "near parts (3 or more) of the night" NOT 3 or more times during the night. Quranic night only has 3 parts (evening twilight, dark night, morning twilight), thus unless you intend to uphold the salat/bond the whole night, you will not fulfill the criteria.
So, what's wrong with upholding the salaat one of these three times? Wouldn't that be considered a "night salaat"? Regarding the use of the word "near", this could also be a reference to an onset or beginning, referring to the beginning or ending of the night. This could also be taken as a mention of the "one-third" and "two-thirds" time periods, which are "near parts" during the night. The "one-half" time, of course, would be around midnight.
One of the most astounding features of The Quran is its logical precision. It humbles me every time.
I agree, and it humbles me too.
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace,
Salaam Wakas
You are now talking like some sunni scholars who ask for qualifications when confronted, why do we have to write a detailed article about something quite obvious. Previously I pointed to you an article written by Edip regarding three salah (prayers) which I found convincing, and you said "I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed" I am still waiting for you to refute his article.
peaceI did not ask for qualifications, I asked for a detailed article, which anyone can write.
I recall your previous point very well. And as you correctly stated, the points he brings up have already been discussed in more detail in this forum than in his article, and refuted. I am not going to type it up again for those who do not wish to use the search function.
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peace AB,
You did not correct/clarify your statement about brother Ayman. Please do so immeditately.
So, if the passage is encouraging the muslims/submitters to uphold the salaat TWO times per day, then why would it mention the THIRD (i.e. during the night) at all?
To remind that it is an extra. I'm sure anyone can relate that if one feels God says something is an extra, some will try to do so much of it that it can become detrimental to other things.
I didn't say anyone has to observe all three of these times
I know you did not say this, however The Quran clearly says "and (observe) 3 or more near parts FROM the night".
Why would there be an "end point" mentioned? The Quran doesn't give a specific time limit for each salaat observance, so there's no need for an end point.
Thanks for indirectly admitting that your previous statements of the times and time ranges being explained were incorrect. Perhaps you do not see the need for an end point, but The Quran does, hence one for both. According to you, end point for one, not for the other.... that is up to you.
So, what's wrong with upholding the salaat one of these three times?
Because that is not what The Quran says. See above.
Regarding the use of the word "near", this could also be a reference to an onset or beginning, referring to the beginning or ending of the night.
Thanks for admitting that in your understanding the use of "near" has no clear reference and the meaning has to be assumed. Where's the precision in that?
I have no interest in discussing this issue further unless new evidence is brought to the table.
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First of all, Wakas, drop your elitist attitude. You've done nothing to strengthen your position, and have failed to weaken your opponent's position despite your many attempts. To avoid being hypocritical, please summarize your arguments...instead of claiming that they've been previously discussed. If they were previously discussed, they were discussed with a different group of people and it bears no relevance in this conversation. Don't demand from others what you can't provide yourself. You're just making yourself look like an idiot.
Secondly, don't order AB to put forth a quote that has nothing to do with this conversation. If AB says Ayman said whatever, he may or may not have said it. Point is, it doesn't matter and deflate your ego a little bit.
Third, why're you so militant? This is a discussion of religion and God, for God's sake. And it seems to me that you're a little too adamant when discussing your religious duties...you're dismissing every argument (with the retort that it's been discussed many times, although you apparently can't come up with a "detailed article" supporting your view) that says you'd have to pray more than twice without even giving it a second glance. You've already made up your mind that praying more than 2 times each day is just too much for you to handle.
I'm not a submitter or a religious person (as of yet) and am still doing lots of research, but here's one very detailed article for ya. You've probably read it already and dismissed it. However, before dismissing it in this conversation, summarize WHY with an acceptable amount of detail. Don't tell me it's already been discussed because I'll just assume you're a bitter guy that has not a clue what he's talking about.
http//www.submission.org/salat-where.htmlPeace
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Peace AB,
Following are the FATAL FLAWS in your arguments
FATAL FLAW # 1
Qur'anic daytime (nahaar) has 3 or more edges, not 2 as per YOUR CONJECTURE WHICH VIOLATES QUR'ANIC EVIDENCE.
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during the night glorify; and at VARIOUS EDGES/"ATRAAF" OF THE DAYTIME perhaps you may be content.
Here CLEARLY, the word "atraaf"/"3 or more edges" has been used for "nahaar"/daytime, which means DAYTIME HAS 3 OR MORE EDGES AND NOT 2 AS PER YOUR CONJECTURE.
In 11114, the word used is "tarafayn"/2 edges. Now the million dollar question is
WHICH TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME?
Your theory of "zulafan min al-layl" being separate from "tarafayn al-nahaar" DOES NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION. Thus the "wa" between them in 11114 is not a "wa" of separation, but a "wa" of clarification. That is the only way we can find out WHICH TWO EDGES OF DAYTIME i.e. THOSE EDGES THAT ARE ALSO NEAR PARTS OF NIGHT.
FATAL FLAW # 2
If the "wa" in 11114 is a "wa" of separation, then according to your theory we are being asked to uphold salaat during "zulafan min al-layl"/3 or more near parts of the night SEPARATE from daytime. Two implications of this
- Near what? Your theory does not answer this question and creates CONTRADICTION with 12111
12111 In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what was already revealed and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
- We are being asked to uphold salaat at least 3 times at night, so the total will be 2 during daytime/nahaar and 3 during night/layl for a total of 5 times in 24 hours. This contradicts your assumption of only 3 salaats in 24 hours.
WHEN THE "WA" IN 11114 IS TAKEN AS "WA" OF CLARIFICATION, THEN THESE FATAL FLAWS DISAPPEAR.
FATAL FLAW #3
In 2238, "salawaat" already includes all salaats, so if "salaat al-wusta" is an individual salaat then it would already be included in "salawaat" and hence totally redundant and illogical.
The "salawaat" in 2238 is mentioned generally and not in the context of one day and therefore refers to all the salaats of one's lifetime, which qualifies as "3 or more". Why do you take it as referring to only one day's salaats, and based on what qur'anic evidence?
The only possible explanation is that 2238 is commanding us to protect/maintain all the salaats of our lifetime and observe each salaat in the best/balanced manner.
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20130 Literal So you be patient on what they say, and praise/glorify with your Lord's praise/gratitude/thanks, before the sun's ascent/rising, and before its decline/setting , and from the night's hours so praise/glorify, and the daytime's ends/edges, maybe/perhaps you accept/approve.
Notice that praise, is repeated two times. That means, it simply restates the times, as referred to other times in the Quran.
In this verse, are three times, Morning, Sunset, Evening.
The first part of the verse, refers morning, sunset, and evening, and the second part, after the second praise, refers morning, and sunset. This is also what edges of the day, refers to elsewhere in the Quran. It is the same as sunrise/sunset.That makes sense, with the "middle" of 2230.
For all referances to prayer in the Quran, to make sense, one have to include the concept of intuitive prayer. And it is an easily understandable one.
Who doesn't pray, in situations of emergency, for instance.7320, mentions not three times, but that the prophet prays intuitively, and that he is reducing the time prayer, as time passes, first he prays 2/3 of the night, then 1/2, then 1/3. He cannot keep up, and God pardons him.
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Peace Wakas,
You did not correct/clarify your statement about brother Ayman. Please do so immeditately.
What statement about Ayman? I only said what he said in the topic YOU posted for me to reference
The night is merged into the day (for example, see 2261). Hence, night starts at sunset. Therefore, the near part of the night (a="zulufan mina allayli" is between sunset (the beginning of night) and the total darkness of the night (b="ghasaqi allayli".
Those two times (a) and (b) are not equivalent. (a) comes before (b).
the near part of the night = sunset----->the darkness of the night
So, what's wrong with me referencing Ayman's words? I don't see where he has come and objected to it, so I don't see what the problem is...
Now, back to the topic of discussion
To remind that it is an extra. I'm sure anyone can relate that if one feels God says something is an extra, some will try to do so much of it that it can become detrimental to other things.
So, salaat becomes detrimental? Why do you suppose the Quran says
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the near parts of the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
I don't think the salaat can become detrimental to us since it is specifically regarded as one of the "righteous works" that "wipe out the evil works". It's regarded as "extra" because it is difficult to maintain, and God knows some people will not be able to keep up (7320).
Thanks for indirectly admitting that your previous statements of the times and time ranges being explained were incorrect. Perhaps you do not see the need for an end point, but The Quran does, hence one for both. According to you, end point for one, not for the other.... that is up to you.
Well, we know the Quran gives starting points for the salaat, so this is not in question? But you're saying the Quran gives "end points" for all the salaat? Can you please show some evidence of this? The other topic you referenced doesn't say this at all. Where are these "end points" for all the salaat?
Thanks for admitting that in your understanding the use of "near" has no clear reference and the meaning has to be assumed. Where's the precision in that?
Has to be assumed? If something is considered "near" something, this is attributing "closeness". This is not assumed. If the passage speaks about the "morning, evening, and NEAR PART of the night", it's referencing the part of the night nearest to the evening. Is this difficult to understand?
I have no interest in discussing this issue further unless new evidence is brought to the table.
I should've known this response was coming... If you don't wish to discuss this, fine; nobody can force you to do so. Your participation or absence in this discussion is completely up to you...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Truthseeker,
Following are the FATAL FLAWS in your arguments
NONE of these are "fatal flaws", they are just your misunderstandings of my posts...
FATAL FLAW # 1
Qur'anic daytime (nahaar) has 3 or more edges, not 2 as per YOUR CONJECTURE WHICH VIOLATES QUR'ANIC EVIDENCE.
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during the night glorify; and at VARIOUS EDGES/"ATRAAF" OF THE DAYTIME perhaps you may be content.
Here CLEARLY, the word "atraaf"/"3 or more edges" has been used for "nahaar"/daytime, which means DAYTIME HAS 3 OR MORE EDGES AND NOT 2 AS PER YOUR CONJECTURE.
This is WRONG. 20130 is speaking of TWO edges of the day, and the direct and literal translation would be
Therefore, be patient in the face of their sayings, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, and at BOTH ENDS/EDGES of the day, that you may be satisfied. (20130)
I don't know where you got the word "various" from, but this is incorrect. This pretty much shatters your whole "FIRST FATAL FLAW" theory...
FATAL FLAW # 2
If the "wa" in 11114 is a "wa" of separation, then according to your theory we are being asked to uphold salaat during "zulafan min al-layl"/3 or more near parts of the night SEPARATE from daytime. Two implications of this
- Near what? Your theory does not answer this question and creates CONTRADICTION with 12111
This alleged "FATAL FLAW" is ridiculous. Do you think the "near parts of/during the night" are DURING the daytime? If the Quran was putting them together in a descriptive form, it would not have the word "wa"/and between them. Please show me somewhere else in the Quran where "wa" refers to a description instead of "and"...
- We are being asked to uphold salaat at least 3 times at night, so the total will be 2 during daytime/nahaar and 3 during night/layl for a total of 5 times in 24 hours. This contradicts your assumption of only 3 salaats in 24 hours.
I didn't say this at all, and like I said, this is your misunderstanding of my posts. I think ONE of those three periods being upheld is observance of the night salaat. Therefore, salaat observance at (1) evening, (2) night, and (3) morning equals THREE salaat periods, not two or five.
FATAL FLAW #3
In 2238, "salawaat" already includes all salaats, so if "salaat al-wusta" is an individual salaat then it would already be included in "salawaat" and hence totally redundant and illogical.
I see this is part of your conjecture. The word "salawaat" is used directly before "salaat al wusta". However, "salawaat" refers to THREE OR MORE periods, not two.
The "salawaat" in 2238 is mentioned generally and not in the context of one day and therefore refers to all the salaats of one's lifetime, which qualifies as "3 or more". Why do you take it as referring to only one day's salaats, and based on what qur'anic evidence?
The only possible explanation is that 2238 is commanding us to protect/maintain all the salaats of our lifetime and observe each salaat in the best/balanced manner.
This is also WRONG. The Quran makes several mentions of all the "salawaat" in a person's lifetime, and in these verse, the general word (i.e. "salaat" is used, not the plural form. This is used throughout the rest of the reading to refer to the entire salaat during one's life or the general communion of God's people. So, if "salawaat" is used to refer to all the periods during one's lifetime, why isn't this also used in the other verses? Also, since "salaat al wusta" is referred to separately from the other "salawaat", it gives in the impression of speciality, which is also shown by the Quran calling it "extra" (1779). It's special significance is explained in 7320.
Your alleged "FATAL FLAW" theories are not supported by the Quran.
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Thanks for indirectly admitting you quoted brother Ayman incorrectly.
He actually said, and I quote "the near part of the night = sunset----->the darkness of the night"
It is revealing in how you only made bold the part that matched your claims, ignoring the rest. Misleading, and at worst, dishonest.
There is nothing wrong with quoting someone or saying someone else said XYZ as long as it is accurate. You were inaccurate, simple.
peace t,
Thanks for adding fatal flaws 1 and 2 to the evidence table.
The only possible explanation is that 2238 is commanding us to protect/maintain all the salaats of our lifetime and observe each salaat in the best/balanced manner.
I agree that the plural "salawat" in this verse is discussing general oaths/bonds (like in chapter 9) but when it says "salat al wusta", it is referring to upholding the most balanced/just bond, and as we all know, this is to God's system via The Quran, which then links perfectly into 2239.
Perfect simplicity.
