Could an Atheist be a believer.
-
The atheist is indeed silly in his rejection of God, or idols, and unaware of his description of his universe, as selfsufficient. Is that not indeed the same attribute of God? ) They do exactly the same as the idolaters of old, and give attributes of God, to created things.
-
Rsw, how can words be actions? They are quite different. I can say whatever I like, but I only DO what I believe deep down inside. As you yourself said, I can say I believe in god, but my actions might be completely different.
I have already addressed all the points you made in your post.
The example you gave about the thief...I think you mean that people can have false beliefs about what is right and wrong. That's true, but here we are talking about someone who knows stealing is wrong (most of the time)...someone who has the right beliefs.
There's this friend of mine who considers herself an atheist but she doesn't steal, doesn't drink, doesn't lie or cheat, she's even very polite unlike myself.
That is the kind of person we are talking about. Who always does the right thing. How can his beliefs not be right if his actions are?Nothing is getting subjective here. Morality is very much objective. The truth is clear from falsehood, as the quran says.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe, rather than judging their beliefs by their actions.
-
salam lobster.
how can words be actions? They are quite different.
rsw is correct. spoken words are the action of the mouth. written words are the action of the hand.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe
allah had the quran spoken to us therefore i put a lot of stock in what allah says.
what a person thinks is irrelevant, until they justify a particular thought, by an action.for example you have justified your thought, that atheism is, to you, an acceptable practice, by the act of creating this thread.
allah is the truth.
-
The difference between words and actions is that words don't necessarily reflect our beliefs, while actions do.
So why do people have to justify thoughts with actions but not their words? I don't get what you are arguing here.
Please answer this for me
If someone's actions are all right, why would their beliefs be wrong? Aren't our actions the direct result of our beliefs?
-
salam lobster.
Aren't our actions the direct result of our beliefs?
let me give you the following actions. the actions of a paranoid person, the actions of a spastic person, the actions of a one year old child.
no reasonable person can say the actions of either person is the result of their beliefs.
allah is the truth.
-
Why not? Please explain.
Doesn't the quran say that God will not change your condition unless you change what is inside you? That is because what is inside you (your beliefs) is what directly effects your actions which determine your condition.
Your beliefs are like seeds that are sowed into you, and they grow into actions/behavior.
salam.
p.s. we are excluded mentally ill people from this discussion. But there is always a psychological reason for our actions.
-
Salaam
7174 Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."
There are some people who are put off religion because they see s. c. religious people making so much mischief in the world, in the name of God, and getting away with it. This turns many people to the belief that there is no God as there seems to be no checks and balances.
However some people are inherently good and truthful, GOD IS THEIR CONSCIENCE AND THEY WOULD NOT GO AGAINST THEIR CONSCIENCE, whereas others pretend to be believers, but do all they can to fool others. They are not not aware of their conscience and are deaf and blind. Nothing can convince them of what is a real good deed as they rebel against their own self.
However those who possess a reminding conscience AND believe that they are answerable to God, feeling they are constantly watched by the Almighty these are the ones who are careful of their testimony to God.Satan is not a believer as he has seen God after which there is no belief but rather knowledge. He is simply rebellious, but for the rest of us, who never had direct conversation with God it all depends on our beliefs whether we believe in justice and accountability for our deeds to our creator. If we do we believe in God but do not believe in accountability there is no active conscience to haunt you or remind you.
A believer reflects on God's creation and has more expectations from our afterlife, which non believer lacks 7185
Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrations after this one will they believe?
peace -
What? So you have no counter argument?
You expect counter arguments from someone who thinks God made men superior , and he is Al-Araf. brickwall
Why not? Please explain.
Doesn't the quran say that God will not change your condition unless you change what is inside you? That is because what is inside you (your beliefs) is what directly effects your actions which determine your condition.
Your beliefs are like seeds that are sowed into you, and they grow into actions/behavior.
Change what is inside you could also mean stir your conscious (belief), find out what is driving you down only then you can improve your condition.
peace -
367 Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.
I think what this verse is saying is that believing in the truth and doing the right thing constitutes belief in God.
When people ask me what my religious views are, I tell them I'm "sort of an atheist." So they go, you don't believe in anything? I do. I believe in always doing the right thing.
Having faith in the unseen has to do with having faith that our right actions will eventually pay off. A lot times doing the right thing is hard, and it seems a lot easier to just cheat your way through. But we know from observing others and from our own experiences, we know that bad actions usually have bad consequences and vice versa.Many people I know don't really believe in anything, even though they think they have faith. They do good things as long as it is convenient, and when it is not, they resort to immoral behavior. That's giving in to our desires and temptations, giving in to satan. That's not believing in anything but yourself. That's setting up partners with god, as you are serving yourself instead of god.
I think what it always comes down to is what choices you make. Do you pick what is right or what is easy? That's what seperates the believers from the disbelievers, not saying the shahada or some other magic words.
-
367 Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.
I think what this verse is saying is that believing in the truth and doing the right thing constitutes belief in God.
When people ask me what my religious views are, I tell them I'm "sort of an atheist."
"sort of an atheist." so there is a glimmer of hope
So they go, you don't believe in anything? I do. I believe in always doing the right thing.
So what is that force which urges you to choose good over bad and once you search that part you may find that someone has caused you to inherently incline towards good choices? As for the rest of my post above it rhymes with what you say, but from "a sort of non-atheist point of view"
-
Nope. There's very little hope. I've been wrong so many times in the past that I'm very open to the possibilty that I'm wrong. But If I'm completely honest I think I'm definitely on the right track, and I'm definitely moving forward. And going back to the traditional belief in god seems like a step back to me, because my understanding right now makes much more sense to me.
There is no force that urges me to choose good over bad. As we talked in the other thread, our inner conscience can be ignored, or manipulated. We can think we're doing good when we're not.
There are people who pray 5 times a day and just pray for everything to be good and then just sit on their soft behinds and don't do anything. They think that's the proper thing to do, because they believe that God controls everything, and prayer is the key to changing our fate. So just pray and hope god fixes everything. They don't go out and do anything. I attempted to write a short short story dealing with that but I utterly failed. Maybe I'll give it another try.
There are people who think it's a dog eat dog world and it's every man for himself. So you SHOULD do what benefits you. They feel alright with the idea of cheating their way through life because that's what they've programmed themselves to believe.And then obviously there is our emotions. They are too, too hard to ignore. And usually they overpower people. Pushing them into making the wrong choices again and again. So even if they feel bad about doing something, they keep on doing it.
For example...
Saying I'm a bit of a slacker is a bit of an understatement. I feel bad when I don't do my work and that effects my grades, but it's too hard to do boring things like studying, so I keep on slacking and feeling bad about it later. A never ending cycle.So, those good instincts aren't nearly enough to guide us.
-
Nope. There's very little hope. I've been wrong so many times in the past that I'm very open to the possibilty that I'm wrong. But If I'm completely honest I think I'm definitely on the right track, and I'm definitely moving forward. And going back to the traditional belief in god seems like a step back to me, because my understanding right now makes much more sense to me.
Threre is always hope, I am sure you have a lot more experience in life and to say I think I'm definitely on the right track.....that right now makes much more sense to me but what about tomorrow? Eventually it's the process of going through life's cycle that will determine what was the right track.
There is no force that urges me to choose good over bad. As we talked in the other thread, our inner conscience can be ignored, or manipulated. We can think we're doing good when we're not.
The voice of conscience can be suppressed but never defeated; it always comes back to haunt you; sometime quite obviously and at other times in the form of psychological problems.
And then obviously there is our emotions. They are too, too hard to ignore. And usually they overpower people. Pushing them into making the wrong choices again and again. So even if they feel bad about doing something, they keep on doing it.
Acknowledging that it was hard to ignore one's emotions, shows the inner reminder and a weak human admitting guilt and justifying the reasons to make a wrong choice. Feeling bad about something yet keeping on doing it says what hmm ...defying voice of reason ..what is naturally wrong ie your conscience?
peace -
Threre is always hope, I am sure you have a lot more experience in life and to say I think I'm definitely on the right track.....that right now makes much more sense to me but what about tomorrow? Eventually it's the process of going through life's cycle that will determine what was the right track.
Yes, as I said, I've been wrong before and maybe I will be proved wrong again. But everything I believe is backed by real evidence. I might be wrong, but I'll be honest and say that at the moment I don't think I am. But I always think that even if I'm wrong.
The voice of conscience can be suppressed but never defeated; it always comes back to haunt you; sometime quite obviously and at other times in the form of psychological problems.
I don't know. I know I've done wrong things without even thinking that there was something wrong with my actions.
The problem with what you're saying is that although we are programmed to empathize with others and live in harmony with other human beings, we are not born with the knowledge on how best to do it. A lot of times we end up hurting people without even knowing we are doing it, or without caring if we are. Some times our actions have indirect side effects.Acknowledging that it was hard to ignore one's emotions, shows the inner reminder and a weak human admitting guilt and justifying the reasons to make a wrong choice. Feeling bad about something yet keeping on doing it says what think ...defying voice of reason ..what is naturally wrong ie your conscience?
I'm sorry but I don't think I understood that properly, but if it means what I think it does, then I agree with sort of. If you keep feeling bad, you know that you are doing something wrong or harmful, but you cannot stop. That happens a lot with people, that is why having this inner conscience isn't enough. You need something more to push you to do the right thing.
-
Peace Lobster, all,
Just wanted to share some points
-
This life is not black and white; it is very colorful. You can always find at least a good aspect in every bad thing, and also atleast a bad aspect in every good thing.
-
Right and wrong are concepts that wouldn't exist without Human species. Right/wrong or good/bad in nature or in the animal world have no value.
-
Human species didn't accpet its status in the animal world, and decided as a whole to take its destiny in hand, not just being subjected to natural phenomenons, but to decide and influence our environment => Free will.
-
Each of our decisions during our lifetime is not black or white only, there is a spectrum of colors. Also, not only one decision would make us in "hell" or in "paradise", but it is the sum of our actions, it is like an average, and we have plenty of time to go this side or the other. At the end, I think it is a matter of how far are we from the truth.
-
As for your atheist friend, maybe she is rejecting the religious figure of god as depicted in the mainstream religions, but she might agree about the existance of a supreme "watchmaker".
--
-
-
Some times our actions have indirect side effects.I'm sorry but I don't think I understood that properly, but if it means what I think it does, then I agree with sort of. .
To understand how sometime our actions indirectly hurt others is part of learning process in a civilization, as long as we learn from our mistakes there is a room for improvement.
If you keep feeling bad, you know that you are doing something wrong or harmful, but you cannot stop. That happens a lot with people, that is why having this inner conscience isn't enough.
May be you missed what I said earlier
7174 Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."There are some people who are put off religion because they see s. c. religious people making so much mischief in the world, in the name of God, and getting away with it. This turns many people to the belief that there is no God as there seems to be no checks and balances.
However some people are inherently good and truthful, GOD IS THEIR CONSCIENCE AND THEY WOULD NOT GO AGAINST THEIR CONSCIENCE, whereas others pretend to be believers, but do all they can to fool others. They are not not aware of their conscience and are deaf and blind. Nothing can convince them of what is a real good deed as they rebel against their own self.
However those who possess a reminding conscience AND believe that they are answerable to God, feeling they are constantly watched by the Almighty these are the ones who are careful of their testimony to God.Satan is not a believer as he has seen God after which there is no belief but rather knowledge. He is simply rebellious, but for the rest of us, who never had direct conversation with God it all depends on our beliefs whether we believe in justice and accountability for our deeds to our creator. If we do we believe in God but do not believe in accountability there is no active conscience to haunt you or remind you.
A believer reflects on God's creation and has expectations from afterlife, a non believer lacks this concepts so his life has limited meaning 7185
Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrations after this one will they believe?You need something more to push you to do the right thing
So you do agree we need something more like a proper system handshake
Peace Lobster, all,
-
Human species didn't accpet its status in the animal world, and decided as a whole to take its destiny in hand, not just being subjected to natural phenomenons, but to decide and influence our environment => Free will.
-
Each of our decisions during our lifetime is not black or white only, there is a spectrum of colors. Also, not only one decision would make us in "hell" or in "paradise", but it is the sum of our actions, it is like an average, and we have plenty of time to go this side or the other. At the end, I think it is a matter of how far are we from the truth.
handshake
-
-
Maybe you say you are an atheist because you reject the god described by christians or any big religious institution, because it does not make sense
or any traditional view of god, like making god something that will get angry, that need attention, all that kind of bullshit.The true God, is fair in all affairs. Nobody knows God enough to say "i truely disbelieve". What you disbelieve in, is the current view people have of God.
-
Maybe you say you are an atheist because you reject the god described by christians or any big religious institution, because it does not make sense
or any traditional view of god, like making god something that will get angry, that need attention, all that kind of bullshit.The true God, is fair in all affairs. Nobody knows God enough to say "i truely disbelieve". What you disbelieve in, is the current view people have of God.
Maybe.
What I'm trying to do is understand God working backwards. If believing in God makes us good, then those who are good must believe in god.
So we must learn from those who live a happy, righteous life, no matter what their beliefs are supposed to be. -
Maybe.
What I'm trying to do is understand God working backwards. If believing in God makes us good, then those who are good must believe in god.
Nope, that's a logical fallacy. All bears are mammals does not all mammals are bears. Just because believing in God makes you good doesn't mean there aren't other factors affecting behaviour.