How can we prove that the Quran is the word of GOD and not Muhammad??
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I commented on this earlier in this thread, and this is what I wrote
This is one of the reasons I believe the Quran is the work of a rather simple minded individual. I wouldn't expect God to use such flawed arguments in support of the book he has supposedly authored. What does it mean exactly when the Quran says "a surah like it"? The author of the Quran fails to provide the conditions of the challenge, and a means to judge whether the challenge has been met. In the end all it comes down to is subjective opinion on whether the challenger had been able to produce "a surah like it".Peace
I fear you are being very very dishonest here... Why not just tell us that you cannot do it?? What conditions are you looking for exactly for this challenge??
CONSIDER THIS!!
I am a great car manufacturer and I made one of the best cars on earth, a car which I know no one will be able to duplicate... And best, I made many many duplicates myself and gifted it to each and everyone... And then I tell them, BRING A CAR LIKE THIS.... If you got some brain, you will definitely know what I mean by this statement...
Since I gave you the car, you should examine it yourself... I will not come and tell you which paint I used, or which type of metal,engine,leather etc... It is up to you do disect the car, do your analysis and then BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... It does not matter where the car will run etc... Just bring a car like this...
When I tell you to BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... will you BRING A LORRY or A TRACTOR??
Is it clear??
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Peace Bubbles,
Have you? Why is chance not sufficient? When people play the lottery the chances that they will win are could be 1 in a million, but in the end someone wins. Nothing divine is involved in them winning because the chances are the same for each person who played the lottery. I'm a bit of a believer in determinism and I see everything that happens as a result of cause and effect including my own existence and even the decisions that I make, if the physical constants were somewhat different then I simply wouldn't exist and that would be that. Our existence is no more amazing than our non-existence.
YET AGAIN you have refused to answer my question asking you the exact odds of all the precise values that I mentioned being what they are. That CLEARLY shows your SKIMPY, HASTY, and CARELESS attitude and NOT DOING YOUR HOMEWORK. No wonder you are having difficulty getting to the truth.
What you wrote above does not even come close to the odds I am referring to. If the odds of someone winning the lottery are one in a million or even one in a billion, of course it is possible by random chance. But what if I tell you that a person played 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance of winning, and that person won all of them. Can that happen by random chance? If you go ask this question to a statistician, he/she will calculate the exact odds of that happening, and then after p value testing will tell you that according to the laws of probability, such an event is impossible to happen by random chance alone. The odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, are much lower than the example I gave above of winning 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance. So it is impossible for that to happen by random chance alone.
It is a very simple task that you are refusing to perform. Why don't you find out the exact odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, and then test your null hypothesis of "the universe came into existence by random chance", and do the p value testing. The matter will instantly become clear to you once you do all this. Ask a statistician to help you out.
Go through the following article with a sincere mind, which will help you do your homework
http//www.rationalreality.com/ (click on "God and science" in the left margin)
The above article scientifically proves the existence of God. See what conclusion the brilliant scientific minds have come to
- Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist) "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
(Hoyle, F. 1982. The Universe Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics 2016)
- Alan Sandage (Carnegie Observatories-winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy and multiple cosmology awards) "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
(Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.)
- John O'Keefe (a man considered to be the father of space geodesy, a pioneer in planetary physics and astronomer at NASA) "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."
(Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.)
- George Greenstein (astronomer) "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"
(Greenstein, G. 1988. The Symbiotic Universe. New York William Morrow, p.27.)
- Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist) "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."
(Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 233. )
- Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics) "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural' plan."
(Margenau, H and R.A. Varghese, ed. 1992. Cosmos, Bios, and Theos. La Salle, IL, Open Court, p. 83)
- Roger Penrose (mathematician and author) "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."
(Penrose, R. 1992. A Brief History of Time (movie). Burbank, CA, Paramount Pictures, Inc)
- Tony Rothman (physicist) "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."
(Casti, J.L. 1989. Paradigms Lost. New York, Avon Books, p.482-483) 9. Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist) "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."
(Margenau, H and R.A. Varghese, ed. 1992. Cosmos, Bios, and Theos. La Salle, IL, Open Court, p. 52)
- Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic and astrophysicist) "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
(Jastrow, R. 1978. God and the Astronomers. New York, W.W. Norton, p. 116.)
- Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist) "Then we shall? be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."
(Hawking, S. 1988. A Brief History of Time. p. 175.)
- Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician) "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."
(Gannes, S. October 13, 1986. Fortune. p. 57)
- Ed Harrison (cosmologist) "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God - the design argument of Paley - updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."
(Harrison, E. 1985. Masks of the Universe. New York, Collier Books, Macmillan, pp. 252, 263.)
- Edward Milne (British cosmologist) "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him ."
(Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 166-167)
- Barry Parker (cosmologist) "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."
(Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 223.)
- Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists) "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."
(Zehavi, I, and A. Dekel. 1999. Evidence for a positive cosmological constant from flows of galaxies and distant supernovae ,Nature 401252-254)
- Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics) "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."
(Margenau, H. and R. A. Varghese, eds. Cosmos, Bios, Theos Scientists Reflect on Science, God, and the Origins of the Universe, Life, and Homo Sapiens (Open Court Pub. Co., La Salle, IL, 1992) )
- Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia) "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."
(Sheler, J. L. and J.M. Schrof, "The Creation", U.S. News & World Report (December 23, 1991)56-64. )
- Paul Davies (British astrophysicist) "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature?s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".
(Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint New Discoveries in Nature's Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York Simon and Schuster, p.203.)
- Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
(McIver, T. 1986. Ancient Tales and Space-Age Myths of Creationist Evangelism. The Skeptical Inquirer 10258-276.)
What about the possibility of Multiple universes? If there are many universes with different physical constants then it is plausible that at least one of those universes would have the physical constants necessary for our existence.
None of those universes can exist if the fundamental values are not precisely what they are. The above statement of yours shows your utter ignorance on this matter.
I think you should take the course. Nothing needs to be outside our universe observing it for it to exist. On the Quantum level however observation has an effect, but if we stopped observing the particles they wouldn't just cease to exist.
Shows more of your complete ignorance on this matter. It has been shown in quantum physics that reality cannot exist without an external observer. For the universe to be created and come into existence and remain in existence requires an external observer, outside the confines of the universe.
I'm not forgetting the possibility of Allah, and I'm not forgetting the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster either who would punish me for worshiping anyone other than him.
Keep all possibilities in mind and then prove or disprove them one by one, and eventually you will reach the truth by process of elimination.
I forgot to mention before that you cannot force yourself to believe something, you are either convinced by it or you aren't and I am not convinced of god or the Quran. How exactly do I "know and verify with full sincerity"? You mention that I haven't done my homework, and although I totally disagree with you, I think it is just abhorrent and evil for god to burn someone in hell for not researching everything related to Islam. A problem that is apparent in both Christianity and Islam is that belief seems to be a major determinant in who goes to heaven and hell. Simply feeling that god's existence is unknowable and lacking belief in god supposedly warrants eternal damnation.
I have already shown you repeatedly how to know and verify with sincerity but you keep refusing to do the homework required, thereby deceiving yourself in the process. You yourself made the choice out of free will which will result in your state in the life hereafter and then you are blaming God for it?
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
Are you even familiar with the concept of Panentheism?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597339.msg185482#msg185482
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597339.msg183507#msg183507http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahdat_ul-wujud
http//www.websyte.com/alan/pan.htm
http//www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/panentheism.html -
Peace Bubbles,
Show me another instance where the word "tara-ib" is used to mean testicles in Classical Arabic literature or give an example of a famous Arabic linguist that has ever used that word to mean testicles.
"Taraib" is the plural of "tareeba" which is used to describe a protruding item (such as "tareeba albaeer" meaning "camel's neck, at the point of cutting". In Lane's Lexicon, "tareeba" has been used to mean arm or leg, again something that is protruding from the body.
"Taraib" is plural which implies 3 or more in Arabic. The male genitalia, consisting of two testicles and a penis will thus be 3 protruding parts of the body which will qualify as "taraib". So I think the correct translation would be "protruding organs"/"male genitalia", implying the testicles and penis. So it would mean that the semen comes forth from between the sacral spine and the male genitalia. If you look at the location of vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate (from where the semen comes out from), they are all anatomically located exactly between the sacral spine and the male genitalia.
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Peace Bubbles,
The whole passage you quoted from Galen does not even suggest that the embryo clings to the wall of the uterus. The word used in al-quran is "3alaq" which means "something that clings"
Ayn-Lam-Qaf = to adhere to, hang, love, leech, have an attachment, cling, hold fast, pertain, catch, concern, become attached by love, suspend, fasten a thing.
This is an exact description of the embryo. Where is the historical precedence of such embryological description of "3alaq"/something that clings before al-quran?
If you study embryology, you will find that muscles and bones develop from the paraxial mesoderm which differentiates first into sclerotome (which develops into the bones) and the dermamyotome. The dermamyotome then later differentiates into the dermatome (which develops into the skin) and the myotome (which develops into the muscles). Therefore, the bone forming tissue is formed before the muscle forming tissue. From week 5-12, endochondral ossification by osteoblasts originating from the sclerotome takes place forming the bones everywhere and the muscles develop from the myoblasts originating from the myotome around them, thus the flesh covers the bone (2314).
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Peace
I fear you are being very very dishonest here... Why not just tell us that you cannot do it?? What conditions are you looking for exactly for this challenge??
CONSIDER THIS!!
I am a great car manufacturer and I made one of the best cars on earth, a car which I know no one will be able to duplicate... And best, I made many many duplicates myself and gifted it to each and everyone... And then I tell them, BRING A CAR LIKE THIS.... If you got some brain, you will definitely know what I mean by this statement...
Since I gave you the car, you should examine it yourself... I will not come and tell you which paint I used, or which type of metal,engine,leather etc... It is up to you do disect the car, do your analysis and then BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... It does not matter where the car will run etc... Just bring a car like this...
When I tell you to BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... will you BRING A LORRY or A TRACTOR??
Is it clear??
If you gave that car to another manufacturer, they could take it apart and figure out exactly how you made it and make a duplicate, I would have thought? Why wouldn't they be able to make a duplicate? It really doesn't matter how great the car is.
Btw thats a horrible anology, it's like telling someone to make a copy of the Quran, which isn't too hard if you have a copier.
The author of the Quran challenges us to produce a surah "like it", but what if someone just put together a short poem, would that meet the challenge? How would you judge whether it is actually "like" the Quran? Like I said before it would just come down to sujective opinion, so it was a rather crap argument for the author of the Quran to use.
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Peace Bubbles,
YET AGAIN you have refused to answer my question asking you the exact odds of all the precise values that I mentioned being what they are. That CLEARLY shows your SKIMPY, HASTY, and CARELESS attitude and NOT DOING YOUR HOMEWORK. No wonder you are having difficulty getting to the truth.
What you wrote above does not even come close to the odds I am referring to. If the odds of someone winning the lottery are one in a million or even one in a billion, of course it is possible by random chance. But what if I tell you that a person played 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance of winning, and that person won all of them. Can that happen by random chance? If you go ask this question to a statistician, he/she will calculate the exact odds of that happening, and then after p value testing will tell you that according to the laws of probability, such an event is impossible to happen by random chance alone. The odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, are much lower than the example I gave above of winning 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance. So it is impossible for that to happen by random chance alone.
It is a very simple task that you are refusing to perform. Why don't you find out the exact odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, and then test your null hypothesis of "the universe came into existence by random chance", and do the p value testing. The matter will instantly become clear to you once you do all this. Ask a statistician to help you out.
What makes you think that the unverse didn't fail to come into existence 1000 billion billion times before it actually did?
You do realise also that there being a chance by definition means that it isn't impossible?None of those universes can exist if the fundamental values are not precisely what they are. The above statement of yours shows your utter ignorance on this matter.
hmmm source?
Shows more of your complete ignorance on this matter. It has been shown in quantum physics that reality cannot exist without an external observer. For the universe to be created and come into existence and remain in existence requires an external observer, outside the confines of the universe.
I think you're talking nonsense. Source?
Keep all possibilities in mind and then prove or disprove them one by one, and eventually you will reach the truth by process of elimination.
You cannot disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I have already shown you repeatedly how to know and verify with sincerity but you keep refusing to do the homework required, thereby deceiving yourself in the process. You yourself made the choice out of free will which will result in your state in the life hereafter and then you are blaming God for it?
I don't believe free will exists.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
Are you even familiar with the concept of Panentheism?
Yes. Like all theisms there is no evidence, and therefore I don't believe it.
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If you gave that car to another manufacturer, they could take it apart and figure out exactly how you made it and make a duplicate, I would have thought? Why wouldn't they be able to make a duplicate? It really doesn't matter how great the car is.
Btw thats a horrible anology, it's like telling someone to make a copy of the Quran, which isn't too hard if you have a copier.
The author of the Quran challenges us to produce a surah "like it", but what if someone just put together a short poem, would that meet the challenge? How would you judge whether it is actually "like" the Quran? Like I said before it would just come down to sujective opinion, so it was a rather crap argument for the author of the Quran to use.
Peace.
First things first.... I am really laughing at you right now... You really CONTRADICTED yourself in this very short post of yours....
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You said the Quran is not GOD's WORD, therefore you imply its from a human being, therefore in this analogy I gave you, which you claim to be horrible, you are saying that if we gave this car to ANOTHER CAR MANUFACTURER, they will be able to replicate it... It is not my claim, IT IS YOUR OWN CLAIM that each and every human being is a CAR MANUFATURER, so bring a car like it..... Sorry, but your dishonesty is even more apparent.... And DID THE AUTHOR OF THE QURAN ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT?? HE ASKED YOU TO MAKE THE DUPLICATE... NOT JUST THINK THAT IT IS POSSIBLE... And you think you are done... And you know what, the author of the QURAN also tells you to gather YOUR TEAM to do this big task and do not do it alone.... A GOOD ADVICE FROM THE ALL-WISE... So take the team lead and gather your force...
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You claim the analogy is real bad and the replication of the QURAN can be easy if YOU HAVE A COPIER... what do mean by this? And you are saying duplicating the Quran is easy too... ;D Since you CLAIM the Quran is from MUHAMMAD, a human being, then ANYONE,INCLUDING YOU can become the copier... So again, better stop losing your time, gather all your FRIENDS and start the work it you are speaking the truth.
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You are missing the whole point about the challenge... Why are you just taking part of the challenge and not the COMPLETE CHALLENGE... The challenge is stepwise, first it tells you to bring 1 Surah, then 10 Surahs and finally, when you are really prepared, bring A WHOLE QURAN like this.... Do not worry about judging YOUR LITERARY work, it does not depend on you... Just do it and release your work in public... TRUTH will become APPARENT over falsehood.... If you have not yet study the QURAN fully, then let me tell you that, GOD says, HAD THIS BOOK BEEN FROM SOMEONE ELSE, YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND MANY CONTRADICTIONS...It is not really that hard... is it??
Again, GOD used the simplest syntax and asked you to bring A QURAN LIKE THIS without no more rules... Had he ask you to bring part of it or whatever, you could have asked how big,how small and keep asking without ever getting your feet wet... HOWEVER when he tells you to bring A QURAN LIKE THIS, its just to compose A QURAN FROM YOUR OWN LIKE THIS ONE..... Copying the QURAN through a photocopy or cutting and pasting GOD's WORD on and on would just make you look more stupid...
So come on, prove us all that you are RIGHT NOW.... And stop arguing... Bring your BOOK and let the people judge...
Regards
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Peace B,
What makes you think that the unverse didn't fail to come into existence 1000 billion billion times before it actually did?
You do realise also that there being a chance by definition means that it isn't impossible?You still haven't given the exact odds of all those fundamental values being precisely what they are. This clearly shows that you have no intention of finding the truth.
In addition to that, your above nonsensical statements show COMPLETE and TOTAL ignorance of statistics and laws of probability. Have you ever heard of "null hypothesis" and "p value testing"? Go calculate the odds I am asking about, then form the "null hypothesis", and do the "p value testing". But I know you won't, because you are not sincere in finding the truth.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
6111 And if We had sent down to them the angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God wills. Alas, most of them are ignorant.
1781 And say ?The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!?
hmmm source?
I think you're talking nonsense. Source?You are the one talking nonsense, as is clear from your previous quote above. I cannot do your homework. Go study particle and quantum physics. Again it is obvious that you are not sincere in finding the truth.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
You cannot disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Shows your complete ignorance of basic logical fallacies. The burden of proof is on the one making any positive claim. If you make a positive claim, you have to prove it; I don't have to disprove it. While you are at it, take a course in logic too, because your statements are becoming so nonsensical and illogical that they are not even worth commenting on.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
I don't believe free will exists.
Burying your head in sand won't change anything.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
Yes. Like all theisms there is no evidence, and therefore I don't believe it.
Tell me where God ends and the universe begins.
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2255 God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in heavens and in the Earth. Who will intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the Earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.
4126 And to God is what is in heavens and in the Earth; God is Encompassing over all things.
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their Lord; but He is encompassing all things.
No further comments from me. You can knock yourself out. Only God can guide but He guides only when one is willing to be guided.
2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say ?Peace.?
PEACE peace
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Peace B,
Few additional angles that I forgot to mention in the above post
What makes you think that the unverse didn't fail to come into existence 1000 billion billion times before it actually did?
You do realise also that there being a chance by definition means that it isn't impossible?Firstly, the actual value is much bigger than the pathetic 1000 billion billion that you are conjecturing. Calculate the actual odds and you will be shocked. How does INFINITE ODDS for each of the values sound? Infinite odds would imply ZERO chance = impossible. That is why I kept asking you to calculate the odds but you didn't, hence the nonsensical response.
Secondly, the singularity will have only one chance to get all those values right otherwise it will cease to exist. How will the singularity be re-created for it to try to get it right even a second time, without an intelligent creator?
Lets say that some pieces of wood, and metal and sand etc. are lying near each other. It will be IMPOSSIBLE for them to automatically mix and connect in the right way to form a house, even over an infinite period of time, without the intervention of an intelligent construction worker. Even a house cannot come into existence like that; do you think the whole universe did which is infinitely more complex than a house?
No further comments. God guides whom He wills provided the person is willing.
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Peace B,
Few additional angles that I forgot to mention in the above post
Firstly, the actual value is much bigger than the pathetic 1000 billion billion that you are conjecturing. Calculate the actual odds and you will be shocked. How does INFINITE ODDS for each of the values sound? Infinite odds would imply ZERO chance = impossible. That is why I kept asking you to calculate the odds but you didn't, hence the nonsensical response.
Secondly, the singularity will have only one chance to get all those values right otherwise it will cease to exist. How will the singularity be re-created for it to try to get it right even a second time, without an intelligent creator?
Lets say that some pieces of wood, and metal and sand etc. are lying near each other. It will be IMPOSSIBLE for them to automatically mix and connect in the right way to form a house, even over an infinite period of time, without the intervention of an intelligent construction worker. Even a house cannot come into existence like that; do you think the whole universe did which is infinitely more complex than a house?
No further comments. God guides whom He wills provided the person is willing.
Peace TS
Its obvious that you will not get these response that you are waiting from her... She is just interested in bashing the Word of God and his messenger, she does not seem to be interested to do her homework and she will just manage to answer you with other foolish questions again and again... This is the normal behaviour of those who have been described having a disease in their hearts...
However, my perception can be flawed and Allah knows best on this issue... As for me, I am out of this discussion, I will be back when she and her team brings a BOOK SIMILAR TO THE QURAN... sun
It is just a BIG BIG BIG WASTE of my valuable time to keep brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall with people with ill intentions...
Regards
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Arguing like this is really a boring waste of time. I recommend everyone just stop tickling their egos, improve themselves and slowly we'll all agree anyway
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If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)
Mankind have since been unable to produce a like of only one of its chapters, including, of course, its shortest ones like sura al-Ikhlas or sura al-Kawthar; those who have ventured to do that have all laid themselves open to ridicule. This is a clear proof for the Divine authorship of the Qur?an.
This is one of the reason I believe the Quran is the work of a rather simple minded individual. I wouldn't expect God to use such flawed arguments in support of the book he has supposedly authored. What does it mean exactly when the Quran says "a surah like it"? The author of the Quran fails to provide the conditions of the challenge, and a means to judge whether the challenge has been met. In the end all it comes down to is subjective opinion on whether the challenger had been able to produce "a surah like it". If the author is really God he should be able to come up with a better argument for the Quran's authenticity.[Bubble}This bubble sounds that the perception conveyed in "fetch a surah like it' has been conceived without reading it with the context. This has been asked only if you say that Quran has been authored by a human person/the Messenger. If you are truly having this irritating confusion, then to get rid of such a confusion is to make an attempt to find a similar Surah written by some other human being because if a man, who earlier could not even read any book or write a book, then there is a hundred percent possibility that some one else in whole of the world must be able to author such a book. That is why it is not asked 'you write a similar surah' instead the word 'bring, fetch' has been used. And no condition of time and space has been prescribed, bring it from anywhere, including Mecca, Israel, Arabia and if you can't undertake this task alone take help from others.
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The challenge in the Qur'an says 'like it'. Not identical, but 'similar'. This is giving the challengers even fairer odds and is also telling you to get help from wherever you can, thus giving even more fairer odds in your favour. As a matter of fact it's not even being fair, but unfair, because all, I repeat all the odds are in favour of the challenger -100% and against the Qur'an. There is absolutely no way the Quran is keeping anything in it's favour. This is what you are being told.
It's like asking one to make something similar to a sweet, which could mean anything that is sweet, not just a candy bar, but even a spec of sugar, and in the process you can ask all the production lines, factories, farms, artificial science, organic growth, bees, aliens and just about anything you can think of in the world to help you free of charge, with all their facilities including old and new techniques that have developed over time, funding, natural resources, artificial sweeteners etc etc. You name it, you can use it. Furthermore, there is no time limit set for you, so, you can take 1 day, 1 year, 100 years, 1,000,000 years, heck even all eternity to complete the task. So in essence, you've got nothing to stop you from completing the task.
So far, approx 1400 years have passed and the challenge has not been met. Oh yes, numerous attempts have been made from the word get go. And what do we see. Nothing. The challenge is still there begging you to complete it.
Instead of arguing about the rules and regulations, the challengers better concentrate on the task at hand and get cracking and join the list of failures who have tried over the last 1400 years or so. This is an open challenge of the Qur'an with no hidden agendas.
What more do you need. The Qur'an itself?
Peace
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""""""""""""""If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)"""""""""""
the challenge is not for us, but for someone that time who has doubts about Quran if theres some other book that existed, has surahs similar to Quran,
if the challenge is for us we can easily copy it and says here I have something like Quran.Many of us has no clear idea about what Quran is all about. to me, its a guidance given to Mohammed and his men that time and for me, the message is GOD gave through Mohammed the guidance called Quran. The guidance is for the people then and there at that time.
Seeking help from Quran and Hadiths for everything and ignoring the truths from events happenning so close now and near is bad. Its just seeing backwards and walking.. we have to believe in the GOD now who guides us with the events that surrounds us, if not then it means GOD's business is over by revealing the Quran.