Muhammad is a White Man?

[Al_Khidr]

Peace Christoph Haupt,

This is incorrect. How would the scriptures stating that Adam was created from black/"hamaa" mud be allegorical? What purpose would it serve? This is a clear example of your biased point of view. The verse says that Allah shaped Adam from "salsaalin min hamaain"/black mud. It is already accepted (and proven) that he was actually formed from mud. So, how can you say that "salsaal"/mud is literal, but "hamaa"/black is allegorical? This is clear evidence of your willingness to distort God's message to prove your biased belief.

Nobody's talking about killing all white people or killing all black people. That's ridiculous! All we're doing is addressing the problem that so many people choose to ignore, claiming that it doesn't exist. I hear over and over again from Muslims all over the place that "there is no racism in Islam". Their way of combating the problem of racism in their particular communities is by ALL of them trying to be Arabs, like Arabs have superiority among the entire human race. That's the reason why sectarians, regardless of their skin complexions, dress, walk, talk, eat, and behave like Arabs, even to the extent of growing thick beards and wearing kufi hats (which were originally worn by the Nubians/Africans). People have tried to hide the problem of racism by hiding their own identities, trying to be people they're not, people who don't even accept them. We're identifying the problem of racism so that, one day, we may be able to find a definate and permanent solution to it.

Peace,

Ahmad

As Salaamu Alaykum Bilal Ahmad

"Nobody's talking about killing all white people or killing all black people. That's ridiculous! All we're doing is addressing the problem that so many people choose to ignore, claiming that it doesn't exist. I hear over and over again from Muslims all over the place that "there is no racism in Islam". Their way of combating the problem of racism in their particular communities is by ALL of them trying to be Arabs, like Arabs have superiority among the entire human race. That's the reason why sectarians, regardless of their skin complexions, dress, walk, talk, eat, and behave like Arabs, even to the extent of growing thick beards and wearing kufi hats (which were originally worn by the Nubians/Africans). People have tried to hide the problem of racism by hiding their own identities, trying to be people they're not, people who don't even accept them. We're identifying the problem of racism so that, one day, we may be able to find a definate and permanent solution to it."

Alhamdulillah for this profound HAQQ! You are a sharp Nubian brother. Check out this one video which also compliments what you have presented. The biggest problem with white folks is that they can't truly admit racism from their white power structure exists whether its in Christianity or in Islaam. Now that Islaam is the fastest growing religion and its a scary thought to think how they try to say racism does not exist in Islaam. Do they think we are going to repeat this same form of slavery that we endured in Christianity under Al Islaam! They must be crazy if they think so but check out this video

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjoQEsd2GmA

Salaam

Al Khidr

[Al_Khidr]

Peace.

I am not sure to talk here,among you knowledgable people.I am a little frightened!

But I have to try anyway.Why should it be a problem that the mud Allah created humans from were black?Dont we all agree,that humans did came from Africa?

This doesnt say that white people is not from the creation?If man google a little on dna and ancestory on internett,man will find a lot of information,on our past,and how dna really works.

There is in your nation Usa,a lot of both private and universities,that give people their dna information and where they ancestors are from.

Like the black boy,with black parents,found out that he was 48% euoropean and 52% black.Sarah Laing,is another example of white parents giving birth to a black girl,in the days of apartheid.She was classiefied as a black person,and was ecpelled from school.A very sad story,actually.

Every man on this earth is linked to one another,by common ancestry.That the mud was black,doesnt change this.

It is greater diversities within the respective "races",than the diversity beetween them.

You said earlier Bilal,that white slaves did not exist.There is black historians in Usa that say the opposite,feks Lerone Bennet Jr,in his articel "white servitude in the united states",publisert i Ebony,1969.

There was also white people as slaves with the arab muslims,in the earlier days.The scandinavians have a few of their ancestors as slaves for muslims,in the middles east.History is big and wide.

The racism,is, if you ask the emmigrant workers in the arab states,not that the workers want to be arabs,but that the arabs look down on them,and give them lousy work conditions and no human rights.The abuse of foreign workers in arabs rich nations,is widely known,around the poor world Bilal.

One God,One Love

Marleya

You have said

?But I have to try anyway.Why should it be a problem that the mud Allah created humans from were black? Dont we all agree, that humans did came from Africa??

Yes you are right there shouldn?t be a problem of accepting that the original man on the planet was created from Black Mud. However, racism exists and these are issues that have always been here and just like Ahmad Bilal said we are bringing it out to find solutions. Look at the racist Edip Yuksel and how he mistranslated his all English Qur?aan to conceal the fact that the Adam was a Black man

Qur?aan 1528
Your Lord said to the angels ?I am creating a human from hardened clay of aged mud.?

Mistranslation by Edip Yuksel (2007)

He clearly mistranslated HAMAA (BLACK) in this verse. Below is the correct translation

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch15v28boxaroundhamaa.jpg

When it came down to the Divine Word of Allah (Al Qur?aan) his perverted racism embedded within his heart could not allow how to accurately translated this verse, similarly how Sunni Muslims are guilty of mistranslating verses in the Qur?aan to conceal the fact Allah has condemned hadiyth. Edip Yuksel came in this post once and called me a racist for speaking out against racism in Islaam but I called him to task and CHALLENGED him to demonstrate how hamaa means ?hardned? and we have not heard from him since. Hamaa in this verse means BLACK, take a look at Hamaa taken from Lane Lexicon so that you can see how it means BLACK

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/hamaainredsize40.jpg

And this is why these Qur?aanic translators have accurately translated HAMAA to mean BLACK

Qur?aan 1528
And (recall the time) when your Lord said to the angels, ?I am, indeed going to create a human being from dry ringing clay (formed) from black mud, moulded into shape.

Translated by Amatul Rahman Omar & Abdul Mannan Omar

Qur?aan 1528
And when your Lord said to the angels Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

Translated by M.H. Shakir

Qur?aan 1528
And when thy Lord said to the angels I am going to create a mortal of sounding clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.

Translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali

Qur?aan 1528
Remember when your Rabb said to the angels ?I am about to create a man from sounding clay, black mud moulded into shape;

Translated by Muhammad Farooq-i-Azam Malik

Qur?aan 1528
And remember when thy Lord said to the angels, ?I am about to create man of dry ringing clay, of black mud wrought into shape

Translated by Malik Ghulam Farid

Qur?aan 1528
And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered,

Translated by Marmaduke Pickthall

Qur?aan 1528
And remember when thy Lord said to the angels, I am about to create man of dry wringing clay, of black mud wrought into shape

Translated by Sher Ali

http//kushite.webs.com

So Marleya not only are we dealing with racism in Islaam from the past but we are also dealing with racism in Islaam in the present. We have to bring it all out and expose it and address it to find solutions but if we walk around here acting like there is no racism in Islaam the problem will get worse and we will have another repeat of ?Christianity? accept under the label of Islaam.

[Al_Khidr]

Anwar

You said this about Ahmad Bilal

"Now, I read the Arabic and it seems that you are more dependent on translations and English phrasing. I can assure you those waw's do not have to been seen how you are seeing them. And that doesn't make it less clear in general, it makes it less clear to you and those who are not familiar with Arabic grammar, prhasings and literature. Whenever you do decide to get into Arabic more and start reading things you will see that Arabic styles while clear to those used to reading in Arabic are not clear to those not used to reading Arabic."

I can't stand how some people try to act like they know Arabic and reference how other people lack Arabic knowledge. Anwar, my Brother Ahmad Bilal is sound in Arabic as well as his understanding of Al Qur'aan, and he dissected & intellectually ripped your arguments to pieces. You claim that you know Arabic but yet you can't see how many periods of salaat are in Al Qur'aan and on your website you used to spell Qur'aan as "Koran" when the first letter of the word is "qaf" and not "kaaf" which is a clear indication of an amature or someone who conceals what they know to be truth. I have seen people who knows English and have a greater understanding of Al Qur'aan compared to those who can read Qur'aan in Arabic. In addition you have made foolish and ignorant claims of Arabic throughout Free-Minds Forum and below is an example of a post where my brother AhmedBahgat refuted your Arabic nonsense in a post that you created

GROUNDBREAKING QURANIC FINDING!!!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12381.0

[Samia]

Anwar

You need to open up your eyes because you haven't proven nothing. The context of Basharaan in Qur'aan 1528 is singular

What should it be if it were plural?

[progod]

Khidr,

because again Ahmad Bilal and I have shown you two verses where Allah says that the Prophet Adam (or what ever name that you want to call him) is WAAHID (ONE). Anwar, just admit that your arugment is circumstantial, unclear, unsound but not solid HAQQ!

Please show me where those verses say Adam. Adam was your injection. Adam is not in those verses and no where does the Quran say that Adam was one.

Why fabricate and lie and then claim that this is in the Quran when it is not? Just becuz you use strong langauge, that does not make you right.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Al_Khidr]

What should it be if it were plural?

Samia

You have indicated that there was more than one Adam and you have not even responded to that question with Qur'aanic evidence? We are still waiting for Samia to produce the evidence inside Al Qur'aan?

Now in regards to your question, I have already responded to that pertaining to you and Anwar at the links below

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597416.msg185508#msg185508

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597416.msg185187#msg185187

http//www.concealmyip.com/goto/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/uggc/=2fserr-zvaqf.bet/sbehz/vaqrk.cuc=3fgbcvp=3d9597416.zft187363#msg187363

[Al_Khidr]

Khidr,

Please show me where those verses say Adam. Adam was your injection. Adam is not in those verses and no where does the Quran say that Adam was one.

Why fabricate and lie and then claim that this is in the Quran when it is not? Just becuz you use strong langauge, that does not make you right.

Godbless,
Anwar

Anwar

We can tell that you are running out of ammunition. This point has already been addressed by Ahmad Bilal and I

http//www.concealmyip.com/goto/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/uggc/=2fserr-zvaqf.bet/sbehz/vaqrk.cuc=3fgbcvp=3d9597416.zft187431#msg187431

http//www.concealmyip.com/goto/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/uggc/=2fserr-zvaqf.bet/sbehz/vaqrk.cuc=3fgbcvp=3d9597416.zft187739#msg187739

[progod]

Al-Khidr,

You've got to be kidding me. You won't post the verses again on your own because you know I will point out again how the word Adam itself is not in those verses that mention Waahid. Wow, I feel saddened to have definitely learned through this conversation that all you know how to do is insult and beat around the bush. It's one thing to have an interpretation but don't say the Quran says something that it doesn't. That is just plain old falsehood. May God enlighten you. You have shown me no verse that says that Adam is Waahid, with those two words existing in in the same sentence in the Arabic Quran. What you showed me was Adam in parenthesis in the translation, but Adam is not in the Arabic in those passages. So why will you refuse to admit this? Why are you even a Muslim if it is not to gain knowledge? Becuz of the Nubians? Well there were and are plenty of our Black "brothers" and "sisters" who like people from all other colors, ethnicities and races were and are misguided and are going to Hell. There have been plenty of Nubians (and other peoples) who have committed shirk. Get off this Nubo-centric and Afro-centric tip and see things for what they are. Chew on this

1. we are flesh and blood and all animals are flesh and blood. So if we have pretty much everything they have physically if we were created out of black mud, what were they created out of?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say Adam is Wahid. So why are you lying to yourself? What point do you prove through falsehood?

3. Nubians were not perfect people. They were ONE (great) civilzation located in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. There is NO proof they ever used the word Islam, NO proof that they prayed 5 times a day and NO proof that they used the Arabic word Allah

4. People are misguided and evil because their cultures are corrupt or their minds are corrupt and they have listened to the suggestions of Evil and ignored God (despite their hypocresies). And that misguidance can manifest itself in many ways and among every people.

5. The original man wasn't black FOR THE REASON of being made from black mud (remember even animals are made up of flesh, blood, and bone. They even have BRAINS!)

6. The orignal man was black because the two non-black races caucasiod and Mongoloid are genetic minorities and the negroid race is a genetic majority. Just as light skin is recessive and detrimental in the orignal warm, sunny habitat in which life developed on the earth. And if you mix all the caucasiod, mongoloid and negroid types, the negroid types will genetically dominate the other two types (because there more Negroid types) in the end leaving a type of black people who will be the closest to the original human being we will ever get to.

7. You don't have to dig in the Quran and try to fabricate these truths, a sound mind and the solid evidence that exists out there can show that the orignal man was black and that Eurocentric cultures and Eurocentric influenced cultures are racist towards black peoples.

8. And lastly Arabs are not a sort of White people nor are they Europeans or Caucasiods. Stop repeating the same Euro-centric trash that Eurocentrists have been trying to claim all along in order to write Negroid peoples out of history. Yes there is a definite issue with Arab-centricity in the Islamic world, and that started when the first nominally Muslim Arabs set out to conquer the former Roman and Persian territories and beyond. But that is cultural superiority NOT a racial one, because ARAB is not a race. ARAB is a tribal and cultural/linguistic ethnicity which embraces all races through tribal, cultural and linguistic assimilation. And Caucasiods, Mongoloids and Negroids have mixed and been assimilated into Arabhood. Now Arabs with more caucasiod ancestry have had issues with Arabs of more negroid ancestry because of local situations and circumstances and issues that assimilated peoples brought to their new Arab identity, but EUROPEAN COLONIALISM and EUROPEAN COLONIALISM ALONE sought to cause division among the Arabs along Negroid looking and Caucasiod looking lines in order for the Arabs to appreciate all that is Caucasiod (especially the Europeans) and denigrate all that is Negroid, and write the Negroid people's out of history. And the effects of this are still lasting in the Arab world. But the Arabs are not a race, and defintely NOT a European race. And if a hadeeth says the last prophet was white, THAT DOESN'T MEAN CAUCASOID.

Stop the ignorance, increase the knowledge.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Christoph_Haupt]

Moin, Moin....

......there is no rascism in Islam

4913 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into
nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most
honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is
Knowledgeable, Expert.

There is no rascism inside Islam but surely inside people!

Secondly i don't believe that Allah literally shaped black mud to human form and made it alive. I interpret this verse as the begin of Life.
If it may although indicate that the first human had a black skin, oklah.
But Verse 4913 clearly indicates that ALL other human beings are descendans of this black skinned couple. Of course the question remains how white humans descend from black humans?
Maybe the same way the first human was created by Allahs will.

Peace....Chris

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Wa Alaykum Salaam, Brother Al Khidr,

"Nobody's talking about killing all white people or killing all black people. That's ridiculous! All we're doing is addressing the problem that so many people choose to ignore, claiming that it doesn't exist. I hear over and over again from Muslims all over the place that "there is no racism in Islam". Their way of combating the problem of racism in their particular communities is by ALL of them trying to be Arabs, like Arabs have superiority among the entire human race. That's the reason why sectarians, regardless of their skin complexions, dress, walk, talk, eat, and behave like Arabs, even to the extent of growing thick beards and wearing kufi hats (which were originally worn by the Nubians/Africans). People have tried to hide the problem of racism by hiding their own identities, trying to be people they're not, people who don't even accept them. We're identifying the problem of racism so that, one day, we may be able to find a definate and permanent solution to it."

Alhamdulillah for this profound HAQQ! You are a sharp Nubian brother. Check out this one video which also compliments what you have presented. The biggest problem with white folks is that they can't truly admit racism from their white power structure exists whether its in Christianity or in Islaam. Now that Islaam is the fastest growing religion and its a scary thought to think how they try to say racism does not exist in Islaam. Do they think we are going to repeat this same form of slavery that we endured in Christianity under Al Islaam! They must be crazy if they think so but check out this video

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjoQEsd2GmA

Thanks for your comments, and thanks for that very interesting video. It shows how far some people are willing to go to "transform" themselves into something they're not or never will be. Sunni and Wahhabi Muslims, even black and white ones, are trying their hardest to become Arabs, and they're denying who they really are. And regarding white denial of racism, this is evident all throughout society. Most white people don't recognize racism because they REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT, and this is the same circumstance happening with Muslims throughout the Islamic world, claiming that there's "no racism in islam". The more they keep denying the truth, the more they blind themselves to it. That's why most of them are blind and they will remain blind until Allah opens their eyes to the truth.

Thank you brother for bringing out the real meaning of WAAHID and raising those other strong points to DESTROY Anwar/Progod's foolish logic which holds no weight in Al Qur'aan as we both have clearly demonstrated. I see we are dealing with another die-hard Progressive Moslem.

It looks like you're correct on this one. I expected Brother Anwar to analyze the facts more clearly, instead of falling in line with the rest of the Progressive Moslems, even if their arguments are contradictory. With a basic knowledge of Arabic language, it's not hard to see that WAAHID means ONE, and as one, it refers to indivisibility and singularity. Based on the ridiculous logic that Adam was ONE (waahid) GROUP, it sounds just as absurd as the believers in the Trinity, who say that God is "ONE", but He's also "three", meaning God is ONE (waahid) GROUP. It doesn't make sense, and it is completely contrary to other Quranic verses that confirm that Adam was the first man, ONE PERSON, and his descendants (i.e. the entire human race) are called "banee Adam"/children of Adam.

Peace,

Ahmad

[progod]

Ahmad Bilal,

Based on the ridiculous logic that Adam was ONE (waahid) GROUP, it sounds just as absurd as the believers in the Trinity, who say that God is "ONE", but He's also "three", meaning God is ONE (waahid) GROUP.

Are you serious? I'll put this in caps so you can understand. NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM IS WAAHID.

Why can't you see that? I am not saying that nasfun waahidun means one group. I NEVER SAID THAT and I WILL NEVER SAY THAT.

And stop trying to lump me in with all progressive Moslems. Isn't lumping people together (in particular Caucasoids and Arabs) you and Khidr's problem from the get-go? I mean what is this? Do you think you can discredit me by saying I said something I never said and then say that I'm wrong for saying something I never said it in the first place? Let me write it in caps again

NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM IS WAAHID. And i challenge you to show me where 'Adam is Waahid' is mentioned in any verse in the Quran.

AND I NEVER SAID THAT NAFSUN WAAHIDUN MEANS ONE GROUP. I JUST NEVER SAID IT.

So why the lies? Why are you saying I said something I never said? What does that prove?

I expected better from you. I expect Khidr to just spit lies and venom (he's shown that that is all he can do) but I expected you to see what I am saying and not try to twist my words or claim that the Quran says something that it doesn't say.

If you guys think you are going to enlighten anyone through these sorts of simplistic reasonings and mindsets, ya'll have got a lot to learn. All I can ask is that you get your stories straight about what I've been saying instead of trying to twist words and then condemn, like the Media does to Farrakhan. Judaism is not a gutter religion. Zionism is.

Christoph,

By the way I think that black mud is the physical origin of all human and animal life as well, at the very least. I dont know whether to include the plant kingdom in that, but at the very least we physically share so much with the rest of the animal kindgdom that I think it's fair to say that they probably come from the same black mud that we come from.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Peace Anwar,

NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM IS WAAHID.

Brother, just because it doesn't use the specific name "Adam" doesn't mean it's not referring to the man Adam. We (Brother Al Khidr and I) have already pointed this out to you several times. The verse literally says

He is who created you from one self... (7189)

Other passages throughout the Quran repeatedly refer to us as "banee Adam"/children of Adam, specifically mentioning that we are descendants of him, ONE PERSON. If this verse wasn't referring to Adam, then who was it talking about? What "one person" were we all developed/descended from? If it was referring to a community, it would say specifically, "He is who created you from one group/community/society/people/nation..." But it doesn't say this at all. Why do you think this is?

And stop trying to lump me in with all progressive Moslems. Isn't lumping people together (in particular Caucasoids and Arabs) you and Khidr's problem from the get-go? I mean what is this? Do you think you can discredit me by saying I said something I never said and then say that I'm wrong for saying something I never said it in the first place? Let me write it in caps again

NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT ADAM IS WAAHID. And i challenge you to show me where 'Adam is Waahid' is mentioned in any verse in the Quran.

AND I NEVER SAID THAT NAFSUN WAAHIDUN MEANS ONE GROUP. I JUST NEVER SAID IT.

So why the lies? Why are you saying I said something I never said? What does that prove?

I aplogize if you feel that I'm "lumping you together" with the Progressive Moslems. I was just referencing the fact that you agree with some of their ideologies, some of which don't even make sense. I already showed you the instance where we are mentioned as descending from one (waahid) person, and that means that all humans have one ancestor. And this ancestor is already mentioned in the scriptures as being "Adam". Therefore

If we all came from ONE PERSON, and we all came from ADAM, that means that ADAM is ONE PERSON. This is simply common sense, brother.

I expected better from you. I expect Khidr to just spit lies and venom (he's shown that that is all he can do) but I expected you to see what I am saying and not try to twist my words or claim that the Quran says something that it doesn't say.

I'm not spitting out any lies or venom, and neither is Brother Al Khidr. We're only showing you what the scripture says regarding our ancestry. I'm not trying to demean you or criticize you in any way. But you can't blindly study the Quran without applying common sense. Also, you can't pick random verses out of the scripture without looking at the total context and meaning. This only causes confusion, and it leads you to confuse others. The fact is Adam is clearly mentioned throughout the scriptures as being ONE PERSON. There is no disputing this. If you can find a verse that says otherwise, please point it out so we can read it.

If you guys think you are going to enlighten anyone through these sorts of simplistic reasonings and mindsets, ya'll have got a lot to learn. All I can ask is that you get your stories straight about what I've been saying instead of trying to twist words and then condemn, like the Media does to Farrakhan. Judaism is not a gutter religion. Zionism is.

I'm not trying to condemn you at all, brother. Let Allah be the judge in our disputes, and He will tell us the truth of what we have been disputing. Regarding Zionism being a "gutter religion", all I have to say is laugh

Peace,

Ahmad

[progod]

Peace,

Brother, just because it doesn't use the specific name "Adam" doesn't mean it's not referring to the man Adam. We (Brother Al Khidr and I) have already pointed this out to you several times. The verse literally says

He is who created you from one self... (7189)

Other passages throughout the Quran repeatedly refer to us as "banee Adam"/children of Adam, specifically mentioning that we are descendants of him, ONE PERSON. If this verse wasn't referring to Adam, then who was it talking about? What "one person" were we all developed/descended from? If it was referring to a community, it would say specifically, "He is who created you from one group/community/society/people/nation..." But it doesn't say this at all. Why do you think this is?

I'm glad you understand that the verse does not mention Adam here. No matter how you try to interpret it the verse just DOES NOT SAY that Adam is Waahid. Again I never said that that verse was referring to a community. I DON'T think that that verse is referring to Adam IN ANY WAY. I told you how it could even refer to the single cell that we all come from, and I gave you the countless meanings for nafsun. So open your mind a bit.

I aplogize if you feel that I'm "lumping you together" with the Progressive Moslems. I was just referencing the fact that you agree with some of their ideologies, some of which don't even make sense. I already showed you the instance where we are mentioned as descending from one (waahid) person, and that means that all humans have one ancestor. And this ancestor is already mentioned in the scriptures as being "Adam". Therefore

If we all came from ONE PERSON, and we all came from ADAM, that means that ADAM is ONE PERSON. This is simply common sense, brother.

I accept your apology. I have not heard of other "progressive" Moslems who think that Adam means Humanity. I have heard other interpretations like there were people before Adam. But Adam= Humanity is something that i do not remember hearding from any other Muslim, let alone any "progressive" Moslem. And as it concerns nafsun this word does not have to mean person/human being. Again, open your mind a bit to the fact that that nafsun in the above passage does not have to mean human being. What if the mud started off in some sort of singular form. What if that single thing was a single/sole desire? How about a single spirit (the one that God breathed into us)? How about a single substance? Or a single thought? All these are meanings of nafsun.

I'm not spitting out any lies or venom, and neither is Brother Al Khidr. We're only showing you what the scripture says regarding our ancestry. I'm not trying to demean you or criticize you in any way. But you can't blindly study the Quran without applying common sense. Also, you can't pick random verses out of the scripture without looking at the total context and meaning. This only causes confusion, and it leads you to confuse others. The fact is Adam is clearly mentioned throughout the scriptures as being ONE PERSON. There is no disputing this. If you can find a verse that says otherwise, please point it out so we can read it.

And I am just trying to show you that that traditional pre-Quranic understanding does not necessarily have to apply to the Quran, according to Quranic context AND Classical Arabic. You can disagree with me, that is fine, but I AM applying good sense (I don't like the phrase common sense, becuz good sense is not common), logic and all of the Quran to this understanding. The simple fact is that the Quran does not clearly say that Adam was one person. And 7189 does not even mention Adam. That is a traditional interpretation which you happen to accept. I don't, and I have good reason for that, rememer 711? Did you ever read it?

I'm not trying to condemn you at all, brother. Let Allah be the judge in our disputes, and He will tell us the truth of what we have been disputing. Regarding Zionism being a "gutter religion", all I have to say is laugh

Well I'm glad that this post ended on a good note. God will definitely tell us the truth of what we've been disputing in the end. All i ask is that you consider what I've said seriously, that you state my claims correctly, and that you admit that 'Adam = one person' is your understanding of what the Quran says, even though the Quran DOES NOT LITERALLY say (IN ANY PLACE) that Adam = one person, but that you have your reasons to believe this.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Peace Brother Anwar,

God will definitely tell us the truth of what we've been disputing in the end. All i ask is that you consider what I've said seriously, that you state my claims correctly, and that you admit that 'Adam = one person' is your understanding of what the Quran says, even though the Quran DOES NOT LITERALLY say (IN ANY PLACE) that Adam = one person, but that you have your reasons to believe this.

I can agree with you on this, brother. The Quran doesn't literally say, "Adam was one person"; it does imply it, though. So, yes, I have my reasons for believing in this ideology regarding him and his wife (i.e. Eve) and his children. I believe they were all individual persons, and Adam's decendants are called "banee Adam"/children of Adam throughout the message. You also have your reasons for rejecting this concept, and I'm sure, to you, your belief is just as sound and logical as mine is to me. So, surely, Allah will tell us the truth regarding our disputes. I'm also happy this debate ended on a good, positive note, and hopefully many others will end positively as well... God bless...

Peace,

Ahmad

[Al_Khidr]

Peace Brother Anwar,

I can agree with you on this, brother. The Quran doesn't literally say, "Adam was one person"; it does imply it, though. So, yes, I have my reasons for believing in this ideology regarding him and his wife (i.e. Eve) and his children. I believe they were all individual persons, and Adam's decendants are called "banee Adam"/children of Adam throughout the message. You also have your reasons for rejecting this concept, and I'm sure, to you, your belief is just as sound and logical as mine is to me. So, surely, Allah will tell us the truth regarding our disputes. I'm also happy this debate ended on a good, positive note, and hopefully many others will end positively as well... God bless...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad Bilal

This dude, Anwar is going around in circles by trying to camaflouge the weakness of his argument with the term "Adam" dispite the fact we both said it does not matter what term you want to use or who you want to call this person that Allah says is Waahid (One) which all of humanity/mankind/people came from in the verses that we presented. But what he cannot show is that inside Al Qur'aan Adam (or what ever name, title, it, or person he wants to call him) means "humanity" as he stated.

Salaam Anwar

We are still waiting for you to produce one verse in the Qur'aan which would augment your argument or point that Adam could mean "humanity". If you can produce just one verse in the Qur'aan then Ahmad Bilal and I will have to submit to the truth, but don't expect us to accept your ASSUMPTION/OPINION/STATEMENT as HAQQ. We all know whether you want to accept it or not that the original man that the Qur'aan speaks of which all came from is WAAHID (ONE), in other words Allah, The Creator of all that exists says that he is ONE.

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch4v1onebeing.jpg

Qur'aan 7189
He (Allah) created you from ONE (WAAHID) person....

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Salaam Al Khidr,

This dude, Anwar is going around in circles by trying to camaflouge the weakness of his argument with the term "Adam" dispite the fact we both said it does not matter what term you want to use or who you want to call this person that Allah says is Waahid (One) which all of humanity/mankind/people came from in the verses that we presented. But what he cannot show is that inside Al Qur'aan Adam (or what ever name, title, it, or person he wants to call him) means "humanity" as he stated.

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch4v1onebeing.jpg

Qur'aan 7189
He (Allah) created you from ONE (WAAHID) person....

Alhamdulillah, thanks for pointing out the Arabic terms as well, brother. Maybe now Brother Anwar can clearly see how the scriptures emphasize that we are all decendants of ONE BEING. So, even though it doesn't specifically use the name "Adam", it is clearly referring to Adam.

Peace,

Ahmad

[Christoph_Haupt]

Hello dear Brothers Ahmad Bilal and Al Khidr.

You translated Verse 7189 as

He (Allah) created you from ONE (WAAHID) person....

But if ALLAH created mankind from ONE person then why does ALLAH tells in Verse 4913 about mankind created from a male and female. That would be TWO person!

Verse 7189 refering to ONE person would contradict in this sense Verse 4913. Or not?

Could you please explain. Thank you.

Peace......Chris

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Peace Christoph Haupt,

You translated Verse 7189 as

He (Allah) created you from ONE (WAAHID) person....

But if ALLAH created mankind from ONE person then why does ALLAH tells in Verse 4913 about mankind created from a male and female. That would be TWO person!

Verse 7189 refering to ONE person would contradict in this sense Verse 4913. Or not?

This would not be a contradiction at all. It only alludes to the wife of Adam (i.e. "Eve&quot having a geneology tracing back to Adam as well. For example, the Quran never specifies the creation of Adam's wife, and it never mentions her being born. The first instance of her being mentioned is in 235, and that says

We said, "O Adam, live with your wife in paradise, and eat therefrom generously, as you please, but do not approach this tree, lest you sin." (235)

This is the first instance where Adam's wife (often called "Eve&quot is mentioned at all. So, where did she come from? Why does Allah speak about creating Adam, but he doesn't mention creating his wife? hmm The only acceptable explanation is that she also came from Adam. Now, since men can't give birth, then she must've been formed another way from Adam outside of natural childbirth, and this alludes to the Jewish legend that she was formed by God from Adam (i.e. his rib). Either way, she came from Adam, just like all other humans ("banee Adam&quot did. You may reject the story of the Bible and the Torah regarding the creation of "Adam and Eve" as individual people, but the Quran plainly supports this Jewish legend, leading us to believe that it is factual, at least to a degree.

Peace,

Ahmad

[progod]

Peace,

Ahmad Bilal, let's not go backwards, Al-Khidr is obviously instigating. That's all he knows how to do.

Alhamdulillah, thanks for pointing out the Arabic terms as well, brother. Maybe now Brother Anwar can clearly see how the scriptures emphasize that we are all decendants of ONE BEING. So, even though it doesn't specifically use the name "Adam", it is clearly referring to Adam
.

As we agreed upon Adam is not mentioned in that verse. And all of the meanings I gave for nafsun came from the book 'dictionary of the holy Quran' by 'Omar. As I said as long as you consider what I've said seriously and try to understand my reasonings behind this, I'm okay with it. It's your mind and you have to make the best decisions you can from what you see.

Al-Khidr,

So what book are you using, and why do you think that by showing some limited translations of arabic words that you are being scholarly? Why don't you get a real dictionary, instead of that glossary you keep using? Dictionary of the Holy Quran & Lane's Lexicon are two books that would bring your scholarship game up to a more serious level. Until then you are just playing with doctrine based books published by certain schools of thought. Obviously they won't give you the whole picture. The same thing goes for translations. As Ahmad and I both admitted and saw clearly, Adam is not mentioned in that passage. If I were you i'd stop provoking and just deal with reality of the situation. Furthermore, I have been repeating over and over again that 711 is the reason why I think Adam = Mankind. Have you read it yet? How many times do I have to point to this passage until you decide to read it, instead of claiming I've offered up no passages in support of my understanding?

I swear, every time I read a post of yours you prove to me how bad the situation (of Afro-Americans, Afro-American Muslims and Muslims in general) really is. It disheartening, really. But Maa shaa' allaahu. We are paying for the sin and errors of our own actions.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Ahmad_Bilal]

Peace Anwar,

As we agreed upon Adam is not mentioned in that verse. And all of the meanings I gave for nafsun came from the book 'dictionary of the holy Quran' by 'Omar. As I said as long as you consider what I've said seriously and try to understand my reasonings behind this, I'm okay with it. It's your mind and you have to make the best decisions you can from what you see.

You are correct in saying that Adam is not mentioned by name in 41. However, here is the literal translation of it

O people, be conscious of your Sustainer/Lord who created you from NAFSIN WAAHIDATIN, and He created from it it's spouse, and He scattered from them many men and women; and be conscious of Allah of whom you ask of eachother and the wombs. Allah has been observing you. (41)

Now, the most clear and common meanings of "nafsin" are self, soul, person, or desire. The meaning of "waahid" always refers to one individual object or person. Self, soul, and person all convey the same concept, so this lowers it down to PERSON or DESIRE. It would be illogical for this to be referring to a "desire" because it says that from this "nafsin", Allah also formed it's "spouse". Throughout the scriptures, the word "spouse" is used exclusively for humans. So, this clearly indicates that the verse was speaking about a human person when it mentioned "nafsin waahidatin"/one being. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have spoken of this creature having a "spouse". Also, the verse goes on to relate this creature to the "one whom you ask" and it refers specifically to "alarhama"/the womb, which shows a direct reference to a father and mother. So, why would this verse compare the "nafsin" and it's spouse to our parents if these CREATURES weren't individual human beings?

Like I said, you can believe as you wish, and I'm not trying to force an opinion on you at all. I'm just pointing out the most logical conclusion. You don't have to consult a thick textbook on Arabic language and grammar to understand what the Quran is explaining. Just look up the other uses of the word "nafsin" throughout the scriptures, and see what the general meaning of it is. You'll notice that the most common uses of it are referring specifically to self, soul, person, or desire, and "self" or "person" are the most sensible translations for it in this verse.

Peace,

Ahmad