Muhammad is a White Man?

progod

Ahmad Bilal,

Now, the most clear and common meanings of "nafsin" are self, soul, person, or desire.

What made you pick these 4 meanings as the "most clear" and "most common" (note the quotes)? All of the other meanings I posted can also be clearly read into that and other passages. Now I wouldn't deal with "most common" becuz number one we don't know what the most common meaning for nafsun was in 650 AD. Secondly, who are we to say that what God "really meant" is the "most common" meaning of the word which we happen to prefer?

Like I said, you can believe as you wish, and I'm not trying to force an opinion on you at all. I'm just pointing out the most logical conclusion. You don't have to consult a thick textbook on Arabic language and grammar to understand what the Quran is explaining. Just look up the other uses of the word "nafsin" throughout the scriptures, and see what the general meaning of it is. You'll notice that the most common uses of it are referring specifically to self, soul, person, or desire, and "self" or "person" are the most sensible translations for it in this verse.

That's cool, and I'm glad we both respect each other's right to believe what we will, but youare not pointing out the most logical conclusion. And it is best to consult a thick textbook on Arabic langauge and grammar to understand the wrods and grammar that the Quran uses to explain itself. Looking up other uses of nafsun does not say anything, firstly becuz those other occurrences of nafsun could be interpreted differently than they are usually translated and secondly becuase the Quran is NOT a dictionary. The Quran borrowed the language of the ancient Arabs, not the other way around. So consulting textbooks on Arabic grammar and dictionaries on all of the meanings of Arabic words is the only way to see the Quran in it's full capacity, and see all that the book can be saying. Remember, the book clearly states that it is for the knowledgeable.

Cristoph,

I don't believe that racism started with slavery. Racism started with Moorish Europe being a threat to White Christian Europe, and as White Christian Europe became a power in the World it had to exert its superiority over what was the obvious world-wide legacy of Negroid peoples. However White Christian Europe had its exclusivist mindset cemented during the days of Moorish Europe where they drew conclusions that White=Christian= Good, and brown/black = (muslim)Moor = bad. You can see that the Christian Church (in Catholic and Protestant form) was the main perpetrator of this train of thought. As Christiany wanes a bit (not totally) in the Western World the conclusions are more like White = Western (of which Christianity is a part) = Superior/Good and brown/black = Uncivilized/Heathen (of which Islam is apart) = inferior/bad. It didn't take much to make that jump, but for brown and black people our color has always been a constant marker of that connection to the Moorish civilization that Europeans grew to fear and hate so much in Midieval times. That is why Obama caught so much flack because he had almost all of those markers; i.e. He was brown, of African descent and with an Arabic name (and you see how partial European descent (or Western culture) does not count for much among those hardcord Westernists.) To Old school Christians or those who still have inherited those racist mindsets from the past they couldn't get past the message that these two things said to them, i.e. Moor = bad. But enough people were far enough removed and swayed by his campaign strategies to drop those historically, negative Western-minded associations. His capaign did a good job of underminding some of these underlying tones(some would say foundations) of Western society.

In my opinion racism is always connected to antagonisms between two civilizations, tribes etc. And whoever wins that tug of war then imposes his superiority and the inferiority of the other. Unfortuntately in most cases the winner often tries to rewrite or censor history in a way that favors him and tries to prove the original inferiority of the losing group, and real study always shows up these falsehoods.

And the Arabs WERE NEVER engaged in racialized slavery. European colonialism brought this racialized aspect of darker against lighter to the Arab world in order to divide, conquer and rule. And the Europeans kept up that mindset in order to brainwash the people into believing they were superior and that the truly most influential people in Africa, the Middle East and lower Asia; The Negroids, were inferior. The Europeans' influence in this way is not only in the Middle East, India and North Africa, but also in black Africa where Europeans mixed with some of the local populations (as in South Africa). And where the Europens could find any differences between Negroid peoples in certain countries they tried to divide them along the lines of more European looking and less European looking. That is one of the issues with the Tutsis and the Watutsis. And this also happened among Afro-Americans so that you see Afro-Americans (more pre-60's than at present) valuing more European admixture over more aboriginal African looks.

The unfortunate part is that the victims of this racism become some of the most insidious perpetrators of it.

Godbless,
Anwar

Christoph_Haupt

Salaam progod, i agree with you and hope that in time being mankind will come to the logical understanding that despite our various skincolour (given by ONE CREATOR) we are all brother and sisters with the same origin and burie once and for all rascim in the pages of history.

Peace....Chris

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Chris,

exhibiting the story of the white man being an offspring of a human mother (Adams wife) and a inhuman father (Iblis) and therefore making white people half-human or even subhuman could very well implie that black people (human) are superior to white people (half-human/subhuman).

I never said Iblis was subhuman, and I didn't make this statement regarding white people either. I just stated the facts their genealogy is based on a general composition of recessive genes. This is a scientific fact. That's why they have pale skin, thin and straight hair, thin lips and noses, light eyes, and many other recessive genetic factors. This doesn't make them inferior or subhuman; it simply makes them different.

Exhibiting this story could although implie that Islam is meant for the black man only, because Quran is a beacon for human mankind so what about the half-human/subhuman white people?

This is unrealistic. The Qur'an plainly says that there will be a few among the jinn who will listen to the message and become submitters. So, how true is this statement if "humans" are black and "jinns" are white? Think about the general and overall statistics regarding the religion of Islam throughout the world. Most white people outrightly reject Islam, and they even promote the belief that all muslims/submitters are terrorists and murderers. However, many black people follow the beliefs of submission, especially in the United States, Africa/Nubia, and the Middle East. The majority of white people throughout the world believe in Christianity, a completely fabricated, manmade, pagan religion devoted to worshiping Jesus, which went again his own teachings. This coincides with the concept in the Qur'an implying that most of the jinns refuse to become submitters to Allah... And what about white Muslims? Most of them promote the blasphemous pagan rituals of Mekka, and they can't speak the name of Allah without subscribing Muhammad as his "partner". These are the facts. Now, regarding white Muslims dedicated to worshiping God ALONE, they are definately the minority, and they completely fit the description of the jinn group mentioned in the Qur'an (i.e. chapter 72, "Al-Jinn&quot. And just like the scriptures say, this groups submits to Allah, and they are among the righteous. The scriptures state that the Qur'an is a message to the entire world, not just to the humans.

Peace,

Ahmad

progod

Ahmad Bilal,

You said

And what about white Muslims? Most of them promote the blasphemous pagan rituals of Mekka, and they can't speak the name of Allah without subscribing Muhammad as his "partner".

What about the tons of African/Nubian Muslim who also subscribe the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him) as a partner when they mention Allah? Have you heard the Shiites? West African are no different. The Sunni/Sufi Muslims in Senegal use the same Arabic phrases the Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Bosnia use. And they have been using them since Islam came to those lands before 1200 AD.The Shiites ascribe Muhammad (God bless him), his whole family and Ali! And black Iraqis are just as Shia as the rest of the Shia Iraqis who you might not consider black. Alot of African Muslims are Sunni/Sufi Muslims but they say all the same things that the white Muslims say. They also promote the same "blasphemous" "pagan" rituals (as you call them) of Mekka. So i really don't understand how you are trying to pin the misguided things in Islam on "white" Muslims and act like the Africa/Nubian Musilms don't do the very same things?

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Samia

You have indicated that there was more than one Adam and you have not even responded to that question with Qur'aanic evidence? We are still waiting for Samia to produce the evidence inside Al Qur'aan?

Now in regards to your question, I have already responded to that pertaining to you and Anwar at the links below

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597416.msg185508#msg185508

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597416.msg185187#msg185187

http//www.concealmyip.com/goto/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/uggc/=2fserr-zvaqf.bet/sbehz/vaqrk.cuc=3fgbcvp=3d9597416.zft187363#msg187363

Salaam Khidr
I read these posts and none of them answers my question. You sited different derivatives of the word "bashar" but none of them stands for a plural of it. When I say there's more than one Adam, I base it on knowing that "bashar" is not a singular but a collective plural. Just like "insan" which you agree that it is a collective plural. You can also derive similar derivatives from "insan'as you did with 'bashar`'. Would this change the fact that it's a collective plural?

Your misguided ASSUMPTIONS, OPINIONS, EMPTY STATEMENTS and especially your EMOTIONS will blind you....

All scholars who have translated the Qur?aan agree with the evidence that I presented because they unlike your self know the difference between

http//i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo206/tawhiyd/bashar/basharaanbashariya.jpg

I will use Layth as an example since he is the only one who translated the Qur'aan that you have listed through Your typical EMOTIONAL response

I am creating A human being, trans. by Progressive Muslims A.K.A. Monotheist Group

Notice that Layth translated this verse to say "A human being" this expression using "A" denotes that it is ONE person and plus the Qur?aan 41; Qur?aan 7189 tells us this directly that Adam is ONE when Allah used the word Waahid (One) for Adam in those verses. You are just in clear denial. Below are two more translations by scholars

I am, indeed going to create A human being, trans. by Amatul Rahman Omar & Abdul Mannan Omar
I am going to create A mortal, trans. by Maulana Muhammad
Ali

And my brother AhmadBaghat have corrected many of your errors and lack of knowledge of Arabic along with your way out theories throughout this forum

WHO IS FOOLING WHO?

Would the existence of the word 'insaaniyya" change your mind about the 'insan" being a collective plural?

Christoph_Haupt

Dear Ahmad,

first Iblis was INhuman according to the Quran and not SUBhuman like you stated.

Second it is YOUR STORY about Iblis and "Eve" what implies that in your worldview white peopple are inferior. And others here can see the same.

Third I still refute strongly YOU STORY and until now you have not given ANY evidence from the Quran supporting that YOUR STORY about Iblis breeding with Eve and creating a different than black offspring is true.
Until now you have not refuted my evidence from the Quran that Allah created the various colours of the people.

Posted on Yesterday at 111127 AMPosted by Christoph Haupt

But I refute strongly and vehemently your claim and that of Al Khidr and Amin74 that caucasoid people are not descendants of Adam. That is a racial biased and separatist view with no support in the Quran!! Rather the opposite

And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colors. As such, only the knowledgeable among God?s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving.

Allah tells us that it was IT that is responsible for our different appearances and not Iblis breeding with Adams wife like you want people to believe.
If it is beyond your comprehension to understand the matter of diversity I would advise to seek knowledge the way Allah tells us

Say ?Roam the Earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Thus God will establish the final creation. God is capable of all things.?

The answer can be found in exploring creation itself and not in mythological books.

Until know you did not answer to this post of mine so for you convience to read i put it again in here.

Peace.....Chris

Al_Khidr

Peace Christoph Haupt,

This would not be a contradiction at all. It only alludes to the wife of Adam (i.e. "Eve&quot having a geneology tracing back to Adam as well. For example, the Quran never specifies the creation of Adam's wife, and it never mentions her being born. The first instance of her being mentioned is in 235, and that says

We said, "O Adam, live with your wife in paradise, and eat therefrom generously, as you please, but do not approach this tree, lest you sin." (235)

This is the first instance where Adam's wife (often called "Eve&quot is mentioned at all. So, where did she come from? Why does Allah speak about creating Adam, but he doesn't mention creating his wife? hmm The only acceptable explanation is that she also came from Adam. Now, since men can't give birth, then she must've been formed another way from Adam outside of natural childbirth, and this alludes to the Jewish legend that she was formed by God from Adam (i.e. his rib). Either way, she came from Adam, just like all other humans ("banee Adam&quot did. You may reject the story of the Bible and the Torah regarding the creation of "Adam and Eve" as individual people, but the Quran plainly supports this Jewish legend, leading us to believe that it is factual, at least to a degree.

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad Bilal

Thank you brother for responding to Christoph Haupt and clearing up the misconsceptions or alleged contradiction as he applied in the interpretation. One thing we definately know and that is the meaning of the word WAAHID which is used for the original man from which all came from, they on the other hand have to show us inside the Qur'aan where there are more than one Adam or a verse saying that Adam means humanity, mankind and as long as they don't have this, they have no argument and they can conjecture all they want.

Al_Khidr

Peace,

Ahmad Bilal, let's not go backwards, Al-Khidr is obviously instigating. That's all he knows how to do.
.

As we agreed upon Adam is not mentioned in that verse. And all of the meanings I gave for nafsun came from the book 'dictionary of the holy Quran' by 'Omar. As I said as long as you consider what I've said seriously and try to understand my reasonings behind this, I'm okay with it. It's your mind and you have to make the best decisions you can from what you see.

Al-Khidr,

So what book are you using, and why do you think that by showing some limited translations of arabic words that you are being scholarly? Why don't you get a real dictionary, instead of that glossary you keep using? Dictionary of the Holy Quran & Lane's Lexicon are two books that would bring your scholarship game up to a more serious level. Until then you are just playing with doctrine based books published by certain schools of thought. Obviously they won't give you the whole picture. The same thing goes for translations. As Ahmad and I both admitted and saw clearly, Adam is not mentioned in that passage. If I were you i'd stop provoking and just deal with reality of the situation. Furthermore, I have been repeating over and over again that 711 is the reason why I think Adam = Mankind. Have you read it yet? How many times do I have to point to this passage until you decide to read it, instead of claiming I've offered up no passages in support of my understanding?

I swear, every time I read a post of yours you prove to me how bad the situation (of Afro-Americans, Afro-American Muslims and Muslims in general) really is. It disheartening, really. But Maa shaa' allaahu. We are paying for the sin and errors of our own actions.

Godbless,
Anwar

"I swear, every time I read a post of yours you prove to me how bad the situation (of Afro-Americans, Afro-American Muslims and Muslims in general) really is"

Thats funny Anwar because everytime I read a post from you, you demonstrate what an UNCLE TOM you are.

"So what book are you using"

I'm using the Qur'aan and putting verses in proper context. You still have not shown a verse where Adam, or the original man or what every name or person or title you want to call him or it means humanity, mankind. All you have to do is produce the verse then we will have to submit to the truth.

"Obviously they won't give you the whole picture."

You have not came close to the surface yet because you still fail over and over and over again to produce just one verse that indicates Adam means humanity, mankind. Again Ahmad Bilal and I have shown you where it says that Adam is WAAHID and you can replace the name "Adam" if you want to and call him what ever name you want because at this point it does not matter but what matters is that we know from Qur'aan that the original man Allah created from which all of mankind came from is WAAHID (ONE) and your so-called dictionaries that you talk about have not provided you a verse either in the Qur'aan.

In closing it is starting to become a joke about you saying that "Adam" is not mentioned by name when it does not matter if the name or not is mentioned or what ever name that you want to call the original man Allah created as WAAHID and in addition this demonstrates that you never had an strong argument from the beginning and this is the only reason you keep going and going and going around in circles, thus as much time and energy you are putting in going around in cirlces you should use that same level of energy to produce just one verse that proves Adam means humanity, mankind or that there are more than one Adam.

Al_Khidr

Salaam Khidr
I read these posts and none of them answers my question. You sited different derivatives of the word "bashar" but none of them stands for a plural of it. When I say there's more than one Adam, I base it on knowing that "bashar" is not a singular but a collective plural. Just like "insan" which you agree that it is a collective plural. You can also derive similar derivatives from "insan'as you did with 'bashar`'. Would this change the fact that it's a collective plural?Would the existence of the word 'insaaniyya" change your mind about the 'insan" being a collective plural?

Samia

Yes I have responded to the question at hand. Again Anwar stated that Bashar means humanity, mankind so what I have done was provided a form of Bashar that does mean mankind and it is just so happens that form is not there. Remember Samia, I was the one who presented various forms for Bashar and provided the link that any body can download so I'm not saying that Bashar can't have different forms and again the fact that I provided various forms removes that thought. Below Bashar in this verse does not mean a collective plural

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch15v28hamaablack.jpg

Samia, what proof do you have that this word Basharaan in this context means a collective plural? Samia this dialogue have been developing for a while now and Ahmad Bilal and I have provided strong evidence to denote the fact that Adam is ONE (WAAHID). I can't force you-you can believe what you want so I will close out by saying that those who believe Adam is a collective or means humanity/mankind or think that there are more than one "Adam" have not produced the evidence. Thus, so far Anwar has been the main person leading this perspective and he fails over and over to produce a verse, so perhaps you Samia can produce a verse. Ahmad Bilal and I are not fighting the issue, we are just asking for a verse then we will be happy to submit to the truth because its in the Qur'aan as simple as that, so again I will leave with these verses

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch4v1onebeing.jpg

Qur'aan 7189
He created you from ONE (WAAHID) person.

progod

Al-Khidr,

My first reaction to this is to chuckle at the nonsense. So I'm gonna get that out of the way first. laugh

Sorry, but it was necessary. So now that that is out of the way. Secondly for probably the 5th time now I'll repeat the verse that I base my conclusions on 711. Let me say that again 711 In case you didn't get it 711. That makes it 8 times now.

That's really all I have to say cuz I'm getting tired of talking to a parrot like you. You really take the substance away from any discussion. Call me what you want, but I'm just calling it how I see it. Believe what you want to believe. The sad part is that it is more than obvious that you are a Mr. Flame. But I'll just be content with knowing that all your pent up frustration from that toxic mindset you carry will eventually poison and destroy your very soul, no matter what you call yourself 'Muslim', 'Nubian', Alkebulanese, or whatever. In the end I hope you come around, but if you don't it will be no one's fault but your own. The Mr. Flame is a Quranic reference, we'll see if you get it, or understand why I said it that way. At best you'll just make up some excuse and detract away from your own ignorance, or atleast try to. And then throw in the empty Uncle Tom comments (or maybe some new insult you got up your sleeve) which is common fare already. That will be no suprise. Hopefully you'll turn around. In the mean time, i know you must take your own path, I just really hope you get it together.

May God guide you,
Anwar

THE END

"I swear, every time I read a post of yours you prove to me how bad the situation (of Afro-Americans, Afro-American Muslims and Muslims in general) really is"

Thats funny Anwar because everytime I read a post from you, you demonstrate what an UNCLE TOM you are.

"So what book are you using"

I'm using the Qur'aan and putting verses in proper context. You still have not shown a verse where Adam, or the original man or what every name or person or title you want to call him or it means humanity, mankind. All you have to do is produce the verse then we will have to submit to the truth.

"Obviously they won't give you the whole picture."

You have not came close to the surface yet because you still fail over and over and over again to produce just one verse that indicates Adam means humanity, mankind. Again Ahmad Bilal and I have shown you where it says that Adam is WAAHID and you can replace the name "Adam" if you want to and call him what ever name you want because at this point it does not matter but what matters is that we know from Qur'aan that the original man Allah created from which all of mankind came from is WAAHID (ONE) and your so-called dictionaries that you talk about have not provided you a verse either in the Qur'aan.

In closing it is starting to become a joke about you saying that "Adam" is not mentioned by name when it does not matter if the name or not is mentioned or what ever name that you want to call the original man Allah created as WAAHID and in addition this demonstrates that you never had an strong argument from the beginning and this is the only reason you keep going and going and going around in circles, thus as much time and energy you are putting in going around in cirlces you should use that same level of energy to produce just one verse that proves Adam means humanity, mankind or that there are more than one Adam.

Al_Khidr

Ahmad Bilal,

You said
What about the tons of African/Nubian Muslim who also subscribe the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him) as a partner when they mention Allah? Have you heard the Shiites? West African are no different. The Sunni/Sufi Muslims in Senegal use the same Arabic phrases the Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Bosnia use. And they have been using them since Islam came to those lands before 1200 AD.The Shiites ascribe Muhammad (God bless him), his whole family and Ali! And black Iraqis are just as Shia as the rest of the Shia Iraqis who you might not consider black. Alot of African Muslims are Sunni/Sufi Muslims but they say all the same things that the white Muslims say. They also promote the same "blasphemous" "pagan" rituals (as you call them) of Mekka. So i really don't understand how you are trying to pin the misguided things in Islam on "white" Muslims and act like the Africa/Nubian Musilms don't do the very same things?

Godbless,
Anwar

Anwar

You are looking at things in the micro realm and not the macro realm which is a big difference. Can you acknowledge that global white supremacy exist? Can you acknowledge that its only the white race that is trying and succeeding at this point in dominating the entire planet?

The white race

-conquered and enslaved every single contenant and also renamed the contenant and countries and the native people of those countries. Examples, Africa is not the original name of our Motherland, it was renamed after one of their Greek people whose name was Africanconus. The white man has renamed the Asians such as China, Philipines our people in India because that is not their original names. When you sit back and look at the power to be able to accomplish this feat of the world is pure SATAN. Name one Black folk who has taking evil to this level.

-There always have been battles, wars, disputes, etc. in the world but Our ancestors in Africa never enslaved our people nor sold our people we were conquered/enslaved by the white race. Again we have battles and wars with each other just like all races. However, the white man came to our country and totally destroyed it and instituted the worst slavery ever recorded in the entire world. We lost over 100 Million people during the middle passage alone (middle passage refers to them taking us from africa on ships to america) and when slavery was set up in America, Jamaica, West Indies, Brazil, etc. etc. we lost millions more. Tell me one Black race or group that has done something on this level of SATAN.

-The white man has dropped the atomic bomb and wiped our nations not just once but several times. There has not been not one Black folk or any people of color that has done something as evil, SATAN as this.

-Why is it that its only the white man who has set out to conquer the entire planet and bring the entire planet under the rule called the new world order. Why hasn't no other race on earth has or is doing this except the white man.

Anwar no matter how much faults YOU can find in Nubians (Black, Brown, Red, Yellow), it could never compare nor come close to what the collective deeds of the white man has committed all over this planet, I'm sorry you cannot equate us with them in any form or fashion and why is that? Can you Anwar seriously help us to find the answers as to why this is a reality? Now I will end this point with one of our Greatest Nubian Leaders

Malcolm X Collective Deeds of the White Man
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Csdwfxy4A

Al_Khidr

Christoph Haupt you said

?The hotly disputed verse 41 makes sense for me in the big picture speaking of a single cell separating itself into two cells and from this stage developing the different sexes.?

Actually when you said splitting cells, I think that interpretation would possibly fit better with this verse below compared to 41

Qur?aan 962
He created man from an embryo

This is talking about the natural creation of man.

?but to pick on the Bible for explanation I do not think necessary bearing in mind that Quran is a detailed, all explaining book, is it not??

I don?t think you were listening to Ahmad Bilal critically because he did not diminish the creation of Adam?s mate to a rib in the Bible. He made some critical points that he made to demonstrate what you said did not hold up. First of all Chris you said

But if ALLAH created mankind from ONE person then why does ALLAH tells in Verse 4913 about mankind created from a male and female. That would be TWO person!

Then Ahmad Bilal responded as such

This would not be a contradiction at all. It only alludes to the wife of Adam (i.e. "Eve&quot having a geneology tracing back to Adam as well. For example, the Quran never specifies the creation of Adam's wife, and it never mentions her being born. The first instance of her being mentioned is in 235, and that says

We said, "O Adam, live with your wife in paradise, and eat therefrom generously, as you please, but do not approach this tree, lest you sin." (235)

This is the first instance where Adam's wife (often called "Eve&quot is mentioned at all. So, where did she come from? Why does Allah speak about creating Adam, but he doesn't mention creating his wife? The only acceptable explanation is that she also came from Adam. Now, since men can't give birth, then she must've been formed another way from Adam outside of natural childbirth?.

Chris in addition notice that when Ahmad further elaborated he used the word ?allude? which means a possibility in other words he is throwing ideas on the table and he also said ?Either way, she came from Adam, just like all other humans ("banee Adam&quot did? and the fact Chris that Eve came from Adam sheds a lot of light on your misconception that the interpretation of Adam being ONE contradiction 4913. And in closing Ahmad said ?factual, at least to a degree? which again does not denote absoluteness in terms of explanation/interpretation but what you have to contend with is the fact that Eve came from Adam but how? Nevertheless the alleged contradiction of interpretation got resolved from the Qur?aanic FACT that Adam is ONE.

Chris you have said

?Exhibiting this story could although implie that Islam is meant for the black man only, because Quran is a beacon for human mankind so what about the half-human/subhuman white people??

Ahmad Bilal nor I have indicated this, thus all races can become Muslims; all races can practice Islaam. In the Holy Qur?aan Allah says that there are some jinns who accepted the truth of the Qur?aan 721-2, evidently they became Muslims. Chris you are reading into things that no one has said nor is implying; Chris is all this as a result of because I started a post to address the fact that the white man in Islaam created or fabricated words of men (hadiyth) stating that the Prophet Muhammad is a white man and demonstrated how those hadiyths are false that contradicts Al Qur?aan? I don?t think I nor Ahmad committed a crime addressing this form of racism in Islaam.

Ahmad Bilal

Did you notice that Anwar said this

?The Quran borrowed the language of the ancient Arabs?

I always that the revelation came from Allah, thus "borrowed" denotes man-made?

Al_Khidr

Al-Khidr,

My first reaction to this is to chuckle at the nonsense. So I'm gonna get that out of the way first. laugh

Sorry, but it was necessary. So now that that is out of the way. Secondly for probably the 5th time now I'll repeat the verse that I base my conclusions on 711. Let me say that again 711 In case you didn't get it 711. That makes it 8 times now.

That's really all I have to say cuz I'm getting tired of talking to a parrot like you. You really take the substance away from any discussion. Call me what you want, but I'm just calling it how I see it. Believe what you want to believe. The sad part is that it is more than obvious that you are a Mr. Flame. But I'll just be content with knowing that all your pent up frustration from that toxic mindset you carry will eventually poison and destroy your very soul, no matter what you call yourself 'Muslim', 'Nubian', Alkebulanese, or whatever. In the end I hope you come around, but if you don't it will be no one's fault but your own. The Mr. Flame is a Quranic reference, we'll see if you get it, or understand why I said it that way. At best you'll just make up some excuse and detract away from your own ignorance, or atleast try to. And then throw in the empty Uncle Tom comments (or maybe some new insult you got up your sleeve) which is common fare already. That will be no suprise. Hopefully you'll turn around. In the mean time, i know you must take your own path, I just really hope you get it together.

May God guide you,
Anwar

THE END

Anwar

Thank you for your CHRISTIAN sermon.

And you have said this

"Sorry, but it was necessary. So now that that is out of the way. Secondly for probably the 5th time now I'll repeat the verse that I base my conclusions on 711. Let me say that again 711 In case you didn't get it 711. That makes it 8 times now."

Yes brother I got it 8 times from you now but what you seem to fail to realize which Ahmad and I have constantly pointed out to you is that the context of that verse is not talking about the original man from which all of mankind came from so can you show us a verse in the Qur'aan that is talking about the original man from which all of mankind came from which means humanity, mankind, a collective, a plural? Until then I will leave you with the Qur'aan which says the original man is WAAHID (ONE)

http//i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/kushitex/hamaa/Ch4v1onebeing.jpg

Qur'aan 7189
He created you from ONE (WAAHID) person....

Notice that I can go to the verses that directly talks about the original man being ONE so where is your verses at that is DIRECTLY talking about the original man being/meaning humanity, mankind?

Al_Khidr

Peace Anwar,

You are correct in saying that Adam is not mentioned by name in 41. However, here is the literal translation of it

O people, be conscious of your Sustainer/Lord who created you from NAFSIN WAAHIDATIN, and He created from it it's spouse, and He scattered from them many men and women; and be conscious of Allah of whom you ask of eachother and the wombs. Allah has been observing you. (41)

Now, the most clear and common meanings of "nafsin" are self, soul, person, or desire. The meaning of "waahid" always refers to one individual object or person. Self, soul, and person all convey the same concept, so this lowers it down to PERSON or DESIRE. It would be illogical for this to be referring to a "desire" because it says that from this "nafsin", Allah also formed it's "spouse". Throughout the scriptures, the word "spouse" is used exclusively for humans. So, this clearly indicates that the verse was speaking about a human person when it mentioned "nafsin waahidatin"/one being. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have spoken of this creature having a "spouse". Also, the verse goes on to relate this creature to the "one whom you ask" and it refers specifically to "alarhama"/the womb, which shows a direct reference to a father and mother. So, why would this verse compare the "nafsin" and it's spouse to our parents if these CREATURES weren't individual human beings?

Like I said, you can believe as you wish, and I'm not trying to force an opinion on you at all. I'm just pointing out the most logical conclusion. You don't have to consult a thick textbook on Arabic language and grammar to understand what the Quran is explaining. Just look up the other uses of the word "nafsin" throughout the scriptures, and see what the general meaning of it is. You'll notice that the most common uses of it are referring specifically to self, soul, person, or desire, and "self" or "person" are the most sensible translations for it in this verse.

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad Bilal

PROFOUND ARGUMENT!

Samia

Please Khidr, read my post carefully and respond to it, not to what Anwar asked you. You are just repeating what I already quoted of you.
OK, I rephrase If "insaniyya" means humanity would that make '`insan``' singular? Remember this is the logic you used to refute Anwar's claim that bashar is a collective plural because, as you claim, .

Christoph_Haupt

Thanks Al Khidr for the long repley to my postings stating nothing new but I refute strongly and vehemently your claim and that of Al Khidr and Amin74 that caucasoid people are not descendants of Adam. That is a racial biased and separatist view with no support in the Quran!! Rather the opposite

And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and THE DIFFERENCE OF your languages and YOUR COLOURS. In that are signs for the world.
And FROM THE PEOPLE, and the animals, and the livestock, ARE VARIOUS COLOURS. As such, only the knowledgeable among God?s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving.

Allah tells us that it was IT that is responsible for our different appearances and not Iblis breeding with Adams wife like you want people to believe.
If it is beyond your comprehension to understand the matter of diversity I would advise to seek knowledge the way Allah tells us

Say ?Roam the Earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Thus God will establish the final creation. God is capable of all things.?

The answer can be found in exploring creation itself and not in mythological books.

Peace....Chris

Christoph_Haupt

Salaam

Do you not see that God sends down water from the sky, thus We produce
with it fruits of various colors? And of the mountains are peaks that are
white, red, or some other color and intense black.
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colors.
As such, only the knowledgeable among God?s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving.

This 2 ayat explain beautiful that all colours in nature are a creation of Allah, including the skincolour of people. Our Creator is even pointing out some colours in particular white, red, or some other color and intense black.
white people and black people and all other vrious skincolours are Creations from Allah, descendants of the first human being Adam

Ahmad Bilal, Al Khidr I CHALLENGE YOU to produce a verse from the Quran that supports your claim of white people not being the offspring from ADAM!
According to your claims white people are the Al-Jinn. Produce a verse from the Quran stating that a Jinn has a white skin!

Peace.....Chris

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Anwar,

What about the tons of African/Nubian Muslim who also subscribe the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him) as a partner when they mention Allah? Have you heard the Shiites? West African are no different. The Sunni/Sufi Muslims in Senegal use the same Arabic phrases the Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Bosnia use. And they have been using them since Islam came to those lands before 1200 AD.The Shiites ascribe Muhammad (God bless him), his whole family and Ali! And black Iraqis are just as Shia as the rest of the Shia Iraqis who you might not consider black. Alot of African Muslims are Sunni/Sufi Muslims but they say all the same things that the white Muslims say. They also promote the same "blasphemous" "pagan" rituals (as you call them) of Mekka. So i really don't understand how you are trying to pin the misguided things in Islam on "white" Muslims and act like the Africa/Nubian Musilms don't do the very same things?

You're missing the point, brother. This is not a compare-and-contrast view of Black Muslims versus White Muslims. That's not what I was talking about at all. What I was saying is, regardless of the pagan rituals observed and the falsified ideology used, most white people blatantly reject monotheism. And if you compare the general statistics, more black people accept Islam than white people, who generally turn to pagan Christianity. It's not about what Shiites believe, and it's not about using Arabic phrases. You should re-read what I said on the issue...

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Chris,

first Iblis was INhuman according to the Quran and not SUBhuman like you stated.

Please show me where I said Iblis was "subhuman". I never made this statement at all, and you're trying to attribute words to me to prove your point, even though it's incorrect.

Second it is YOUR STORY about Iblis and "Eve" what implies that in your worldview white peopple are inferior. And others here can see the same.

Again, you are attributing lies to me to support your false theories. It's not "MY STORY" that Iblis reproduced with Adam's wife (i.e. "Eve&quot. It actually comes from a Jewish concept, and aspects of it are found in the Torah and in their oral history... And how many times to I have to repeat that I don't believe white people are inferior? ) I never said white people are inferior to anyone, and I never promoted black/Nubian superiority. I simply said they didn't come from the same ancestor.

Third I still refute strongly YOU STORY and until now you have not given ANY evidence from the Quran supporting that YOUR STORY about Iblis breeding with Eve and creating a different than black offspring is true.
Until now you have not refuted my evidence from the Quran that Allah created the various colours of the people.

Posted on Yesterday at 111127 AMPosted by Christoph Haupt

But I refute strongly and vehemently your claim and that of Al Khidr and Amin74 that caucasoid people are not descendants of Adam. That is a racial biased and separatist view with no support in the Quran!! Rather the opposite

And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colors. As such, only the knowledgeable among Gods servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving.

Allah tells us that it was IT that is responsible for our different appearances and not Iblis breeding with Adams wife like you want people to believe.
If it is beyond your comprehension to understand the matter of diversity I would advise to seek knowledge the way Allah tells us

Say Roam the Earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Thus God will establish the final creation. God is capable of all things.

The answer can be found in exploring creation itself and not in mythological books.

Until know you did not answer to this post of mine so for you convience to read i put it again in here.

What was the point of quoting your opinionated comment? It says that the languages and colors of the people are among the signs from Allah. Does this illustrate a separation between blacks and whites? ABSOLUTELY. White people have considered themselves free from color and differentiation, which is why they call black people "colored". This shows the different colors of human skin tones in similar groups, not the difference between whites and blacks. If you're correct, then why doesn't the Qur'an mention different hair textures, eye colors, or featural dominance? Here's a basic answer the people obviously had similar features which wouldn't serve as clear identifiers for separation. They're only general difference was their skin tone and colors.

I also suggest you examine creation, and see what the differences are between black people and white people, and maybe you'll understand the truth. Also, since when has the Torah been regarded as a "mythological book"? According to the Qur'an, the Torah is a revelation from Allah.

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Chris,

Do you not see that God sends down water from the sky, thus We produce
with it fruits of various colors? And of the mountains are peaks that are
white, red, or some other color and intense black.
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colors.
As such, only the knowledgeable among God?s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving.

This 2 ayat explain beautiful that all colours in nature are a creation of Allah, including the skincolour of people. Our Creator is even pointing out some colours in particular white, red, or some other color and intense black.
white people and black people and all other vrious skincolours are Creations from Allah, descendants of the first human being Adam

I already showed you how black people and white people having the same general ancestor is NOT physically possible. So, I won't even go back into detail on that matter... And regarding all the colors being creations of Allah, I suggest you read through the scriptures (i.e. the "mythological books" you mentioned). EVERYTHING is a creation from Allah, and this includes all people and jinns. Even Iblis himself was a creation of Allah. So, your showing that white people and black people are all creations of God doesn't mean anything at all; you're just stating the plainly obvious that Allah created EVERYTHING in existence, seen and unseen. This is already an established fact.

Ahmad Bilal, Al Khidr I CHALLENGE YOU to produce a verse from the Quran that supports your claim of white people not being the offspring from ADAM!
According to your claims white people are the Al-Jinn. Produce a verse from the Quran stating that a Jinn has a white skin!

Brother Al Khidr and I have already showed you this several times. We don't have to post a verse that says "jinns are white", because that's not necessary at all. This is a clearly derived conclusion by the Qur'anic confirmation of Adam being BLACK. That means if it's not black, it didn't come from Adam, plain and simple. Adam was formed from black mud, and Iblis wasn't. So, if Adam's descendants had black skin like their forefather, the reverse would be that Iblis' descendants did NOT have black skin, which is like their forefather... So, if you disagree, please show your proofs of jinns having wings and horns, flying around with pitchforks, like what is commonly referred to as a "devil". If you don't have any evidence of your claims, then it's most reasonable to at least look into the facts which can be backed up with evidence.

Peace,

Ahmad