What is the difference between "Nissa, Amraat and Azwaj"
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The verse often mentioned by Sunni/Shia sects that they claim justify light beating of a disobedient wife is
?Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband?s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).? Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 34.
However the envoking of the words "first", "then" and "last" and "lightly" that are in paranthesis are not found in the Arabic original Koran. This is a Sunni/Shia sectarian translation designed to make the verse fit with wife beating although lightly as per the beduin custom. This is because you can not warn or admonish someone and lay hands on them at the same time. So they designed the verse in such a way as to make it appear there are stages and only as a last resort you seek light beating. By light beating it means no scars or bruises must appear.
However lets translate the Koran word by word and see what it really says.
Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and "strike" them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely God is High, Great.
The verse after it say
4.35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.
The Koran does not say beat them. It says "Idribuhunna". Which means strike them. Its from the word "daraba". Which means strike. Its translated as beat them since it goes along with sectarian hadiths that justifies beating a woman lightly if she disobeys. Beat or hit is only one possible meaning of the word Dharaba. The hadiths also says the prophet pinched or poked one of his wife. Since Aisha is always reported relating hadiths like bombs falling from a B-52 it had to be her of course. These are sources Muslim sects use to translate the Koran. These hadiths emerged 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet which the sectarian clerics believe were "orally" passed down across 6 or 7 generations. It was compiled by men like Imam Bukhari or Imam Muslim or Tabri etc. between 220 to 350 after the prophet's death.
Anyways when the Koran uses Dharaba , it always explains strike what or how. Let see the Koran
"Seest thou not how God sets (Dharaba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". Quran 1424
26.63. Then We told Moses by inspiration "Strike(Idhrib) the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.
"O you who believe, if you attack (Darabtum) in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace 'You are not a believer!' You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do." (Quran 494)
"So how will it be when the Angels put them to death, striking (Yadriboona) their faces and their backs" (Quran 4727)
"So We sealed (Darabna) upon their ears in the cave for a number of years." (Quran 1811)
"Shall We take-away (Na'drib) the reminder from you, because you are a transgressing people?" (Quran 435)
"Have you not seen how God cites (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (Quran 1424)
"As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and they cannot leave (Darban) the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (Quran 2273)
14.25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So God sets forth(Yadribu) parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition
43.58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee(Dharabuhu) , only by way of disputation yea, they are a contentious people
4.101. When ye travel(Dharabtum) through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
38.44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith(Fa'adrib) and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!
So all these verses uses the word Dharaba differently. In fact if you look at all the verses in the Koran that uses the word Dharab, we would find it used for variou meanings
To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.
The verse only says "strike them". Yet this is insufficient to explain it as beat them, since strike(Dharaba) can mean many thing as we saw already.
The meaning strike them as to hit them or beat them physically over mere suspicion or fear is inconsistent with the Koran. Strike them can mean strike them out of the house or stike them out of your life or whatever.
O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12
O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6
So we translate it as it is, and not how the hadiths say it should be, which is
38.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds and strike them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means For God is Most High.
If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say
24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;
24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.
24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;
24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.
24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-
How can then the Koran say to lay hands on someone over a mere fear or suspicion when it does not even allow it over an accusation backed by the witness of 3 people and even the witness of a spouse if the other spouse also swears by oath that its not true? So the sectarian hadith inspired translation contradicts the Koran.
At least thats how I see it.
"O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (4913).
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To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.
so, brother! which one do you think fits the most here? depending upon the context.
siki
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This is a very good post Bigmo (although I would not say men are maintainers of women) because it sounds like a statement and it is not true that men are maintainers of women everywhere at all times and eras. Moreover, why would there b e a description of the (maintained)? Do we have in the qur'aan any description of piety of people we give charity to? I believe that rijaal include women and nisaa' include men. From this pool God is giving examples of two women who are "rijaal".
Another point is the translation of 494, mainly "do not say to those who greet you with peace" of " ". To greet is " " not "", and from it we say " " not " ". The translation should be "do not say to those who throw peace to you, accorded you peace..."
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia
@Samia your statement..... "Pronouns suffixed to verbs are direct objects and are in the accusative not the nominative."
@Samia, that may be true for Transitive Verbs, which take BOTH a subject and object, but I'dribu'hunna is NOT a transitive verb, its an Active Verb thus the action is directed outward from the subject, which means that the subject performs the action but does not receive it.
Secondly, the Nominative Sentence is BEGINS here in Al-Nisa'a 4.34 as it relates to the Subject of the entire ayah 'Hunna' (Females)
/ ohjuru?hunna fee Al-MadajiAAi wa I?dribu'hunna
....within the Nominative Sentence we have a Genitive or Possessive Construct
/ Al-MadajiAAi wa I?dribu'hunna
The Nominative Case is just identifying the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna) and the Predicate/Khabr (Al-MadajiAAi) is specifying and/or modifying the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna) (i.e. Al-MadajiAAi beats women)
I?DRIBU-hunna meaning "ignore, avoid, turn away from strife, discord, animosity between or among people", is an Active Verb, the action is directed outward from the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna), which means that the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna) performs the action but does not receive it.
Allah is commanding Women to avoid these types of abusive Men, period, that simple.
So whats the problem Samia?
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So whats the problem Samia?
'(
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but I'dribu'hunna is NOT a transitive verb, its an Active Verb
Active verb is not the opposite of transitive verb. You do not seem to understand what a transitive verb is.
2- Nor do you know what a nominative sentence isSecondly, the Nominative Sentence is BEGINS here in Al-Nisa'a 4.34 ..... / ohjuru?hunna fee Al-MadajiAAi wa I?dribu'hunna
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is specifying and/or modifying the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna) (i.e. Al-MadajiAAi beats women)How on earth can "hunna" be a "mubtada' initial noun" when it's suffixed to a verb? And you changed your mind about it being the subject/doer?
4- Frankly speaking, I was never taught this, nor have I read such an expression in grammar
the action is directed outward from the Subject/
. How do you say it in Arabic?
4-continued-
which means that the Subject/Mubtada (Hunna) performs the action but does not receive it.confused
Listen. This is the last time I make this request
Provide evidence for these 4 claims ...well I can give you a discount...for just 3 of your choice among these 4 claims from any grammar book, article, blog...provided that it is not written by you. -
Assalaam Alaikum
Samia, Sorry, Im not going to do your homework for you.
Determining that a Pronoun can be a direct/indirect subject/object of a Nominative Case construct or defining Transitive Verb takes merely .05 seconds.
Ok I will do one....
is Subject Pronoun or 'Isolated Pronoun', which are ONLY for subject functions as in the following from Al-Nisa'a 4.34
The other type of Pronoun are called "Suffixed Pronouns" , which are attached at the end of their referent Example /
I have been kind enough to give you the 'keys', just Google any of the references below to answer your questions.
I?dribu = Plural Masculine , Indicative Imperfective + Hunna is Feminine Plural , Subject Pronoun ,Attached Object Pronoun
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I simply meant that one must show tolerance towards a point of view, specially if it is such , that 90% of the translators agree upon, and if one differs, then one should debate logically rather than just hurl abuse in rage, and push the thread into a nonsense.
I have evaluated this term in this ayah and deliberated all other meanings as a substitute, but i am afraid , striking/hitting still comes out to be at the top. Sisters i understand, and fully appreciate your feelings. But let me remind you that this one is not the only, of its kind. To name a few, "polygyne, inheritance, sex with MMA" etc . I am quite sure if i make a deliberate effort , i will be able to add a significant number to this list.
God bless all of us
siki
Salaam brother Siki,
This is not abuse but a simple fact and I only reminded him that he is the one who sits on his bum, whereas he himself pointed out that rijaal means ?foot of authority of a man?. If that is the case then he is not a rijaal as, most of the time, he sits on his rear in front of a computer.
Just because 90% of the translators agree upon something does not mean that they are right, as you quoted in another thread that some things will seem good for us but actually are not and other things we may not like but may be good for us and, working on the underlying causes of wife beating I do see this ayah as a restraining order rather than a license to beat woman.it is very important that we analyse its application with absolute neutrality. I would rather annoy all of you! "My dear sisters" than "letting go of a "just opinion", and invite His curse/retribution.
Agree so lets see talk with absolute neutrality regarding the meaning of 'rijaal'. It does not definitely mean any person born with male sex organs but, as most translators agree that rijaal means ?man? it follows that it should include all men as qawamoon over all women. I quote A-A al rajal qawamun min al nisaa. it does not say al rajal qawamun min nisaakum
The ayah does not pinpoint any particular men and, as A-A says that rijaal is the foot of the authority of a man then the first to qualify as rijaal are the patrolling soldiers in Iraq. They are shown with their big boots, guarding and keeping an eye on traitors. If they suspect any woman of disloyalty they can punish her, even hit her, AND US Soldiers were within their right to hit Afia Siddique as A-A says "the rajal have the right and power to punish for disloyalty and ill conduct, and the range of punishment varies from admonishment to beating"
There is no obligation on a rijaal to enter into contract with any nisa there; they just need to enter them and, if they move on without divorcing them, there is no harm, they are free do so. Unless you can give me your definition of a rijaal I must conclude that all men are rijaal and, according to A-A, can enter as many women as they wish with no obligation toward them.peace
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I am not asking you to do my homework. I am asking you, as a moderator, to provide evidence supporting your bizarre grammatical analysis
I gave it to you. I cant make you accept it.
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1- Active verb is not the opposite of transitive verb. You do not seem to understand what a transitive verb is.
@Samia, Your statement above has no grammatical support and is in error.
The Difference between Transitive and Active Verb
Transitive Verb is a verb which describes an action performed on an object.
'Active Verb' specifies the subject (noun/pronoun) of a verb and the actor of the verb.
I?DRIBU-hunna is Active Verb/Voice , and is NOT Transitive. If I?DRIBU-hunna was Passive Verb/Voice, it is required to be Transitive.
In this case it is Intransitive, due to the fact that its influence and action does NOT extend beyond the Subject (Hunna), in addition to being 'Active Voice' (i.e. Verb)
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I gave it to you. I cant make you accept it.
Please provide evidence from a grammar book.
In wright (vol 1, $185), it is written that the verbal suffixes express the accusative.Peace
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Please provide evidence from a grammar book.
In wright (vol 1, $185), it is written that the verbal suffixes express the accusative.Peace
@JM, they have the evidence. 'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) , are used only for SUBJECT functions and 'Suffix Pronouns' are attached at the end of their referent (verb or noun), are TWO distinct grammatical constructs, used for completely different sentence constructs.
Example Al-Nisa'a 4.34
ALL 'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) , used only for SUBJECT functions NOT 'Suffix Pronouns', which CANNOT be used to specify Subject in a Case Construct.
'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) are NOT suffixes (an affix which is placed at the end of a word).
Thanks Anyway
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Farida.
Salam. Lot of pent up anger, and I do understand why, but sister this world would never be a perfect one, i used to have same emotions in my younger days, but i guess i learnt to handle it some what.
Imperfections of this world has nothing to do with commandments of God.
siki
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@JM, they have the evidence. 'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) , are used only for SUBJECT functions and 'Suffix Pronouns' are attached at the end of their referent (verb or noun), are TWO distinct grammatical constructs, used for completely different sentence constructs.
Example Al-Nisa'a 4.34
ALL 'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) , used only for SUBJECT functions NOT 'Suffix Pronouns', which CANNOT be used to specify Subject in a Case Construct.
'Subject Pronoun' (i.e. Isolated Pronouns) are NOT suffixes (an affix which is placed at the end of a word).
Thanks Anyway
As far as i know, hunna, hu, kum, and all pronouns like that cannot be used as subject pronouns.
Please provide a proof from a grammar book that they can.Thanks & peace.
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As far as i know, hunna, hu, kum, and all pronouns like that cannot be used as subject pronouns.
Please provide a proof from a grammar book that they can.Thanks & peace.
Well.... you've learned something new....
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Farida.
Salam. Lot of pent up anger, and I do understand why, but sister this world would never be a perfect one, i used to have same emotions in my younger days, but i guess i learnt to handle it some what.
Imperfections of this world has nothing to do with commandments of God.
siki
Salaam brother Siki
I am sorry brother this is a lame excuse, certainly not suited to the one suppose to have the authority of the foot. You can say there is lot of anger in me and most likely I am older than you and I have refused to conform to what others call one "wisdom with time".
I am certainly right to be angry as I don't qualify to be a rijaal and those who should have been rijaals are nothing but lame ducks. This world will never be perfect, but Allah asked humankind, men and women to accept the trust 3372 We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the MOUNTAINs; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;- And from among those humans Allah further selected rijaal to be qwamoon over nisa. Now tell me, what is that trust? Is it to beat women and to go around shouting I am rijall I am greater than nisa?
Those called rijaal were given a degree of advantage over nisah, but this advantage is not a reward for being born of a certain sex; it comes with the duties of a covenant. These are especially endowed individuals with a specific responsibility for the weak in any given society. Now work it out, what was the covenent, for the fulfilment of which, the rijaal were given an afzal status and what are the qualifications that make up a rijaal?
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Well.... you've learned something new....
Sorry, I have been confuse, and the question I was asking you was not relevant.
Of course hunna can be a subject pronoun.Do you really mean that, in adribuhunna, hunna is the subject (and not the object) ?
If it is the case, how would it be translated ? By "they strike/leave" instead of by "strike/leave them" ?Peace
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Salaam
3161 No prophet could (ever) be false to his TRUST. If any person is so false, He shall, on the Day of Judgment, restore what he misappropriated; then shall every soul receive its due,- whatever it earned,- and none shall be dealt with unjustly.
peace -
Sorry, I have been confuse, and the question I was asking you was not relevant.
Of course hunna can be a subject pronoun.Do you really mean that, in adribuhunna, hunna is the subject (and not the object) ?
If it is the case, how would it be translated ? By "they strike/leave" instead of by "strike/leave them" ?Peace
Assalaam Alaikum @JM
I?DRIBU is an Active Verb, the action is directed outward from the subject (Hunna), which means that the subject (Hunna) performs the action but does not receive it.
Hunna is Subject Pronoun or 'Isolated Pronoun', which are ONLY for SUBJECT functions
Action is directed outward (away) from the subject....avoidance
Subject (Hunna) performs the action...turning away from strife, arguing, discord
Subject does not receive the action...No beating is occurringI?DRIBU-hunna (I?dribu = Plural Masculine - Hunna = Plural Feminine Pronoun , Indicative Imperfective , Active Verb , Nominative , Imperative ) means to neglect, ignore, avoid, turn away from strife, discord, animosity between or among people
Lanes Lexicon PAGE 1779 Left Column & 1780 Middle Column Part 5
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Salaam
969 Some of those before you were stronger than you, and possessed more money and children. They became preoccupied with their material possessions. Similarly, you have become preoccupied with your material possessions, just like those before you have become preoccupied. You have become totally heedless, just as they were heedless. Such are the people who nullify their works, both in this world and in the Hereafter; they are the losers.4105 Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous-107 And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, sinners
God bless those who strive to honor their trust..