How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?
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"Jesus and Esa are two different people; Allah says one was likened to Esa that was crucified; Allah did not name the person but the christians give the name of the crucified as Jesus. Esa was neither crucified on the cross nor was he killed. Jesus was crucified on the cross and killed."
Please list references for this information- Thanks.
bar abbas - "means son of the father". How ironic that the true SON of GOD would not be chosen over the criminal.
anna - The page you listed is explaining how GOD the Father and GOD the Son work in UNITY.
You must read the Gospel for yourself and in context!
LOL!! anna that page is talking about artifical means of keeping the body alive. There is no proof as to when the soul left the body of Mr. Shroeder.
http//www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08052709.html
Woman awakens after being brain dead.
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"Jesus and Esa are two different people; Allah says one was likened to Esa that was crucified; Allah did not name the person but the christians give the name of the crucified as Jesus. Esa was neither crucified on the cross nor was he killed. Jesus was crucified on the cross and killed."
Please list references for this information- Thanks.
bar abbas - "means son of the father". How ironic that the true SON of GOD would not be chosen over the criminal.
anna - The page you listed is explaining how GOD the Father and GOD the Son work in UNITY.
You must read the Gospel for yourself and in context!
LOL!! anna that page is talking about artifical means of keeping the body alive. There is no proof as to when the soul left the body of Mr. Shroeder.
http//www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08052709.html
Woman awakens after being brain dead.
Is this possible to crucify God & i take petty on such poor god who cannot save himself from his creatures. '(
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Peace all,
It could be that Jesus died before being nailed on the cross so they were actually crucifying a corpse then afterward God raised his body to Himself. If you think raising the body is impossible, what do you think of dinner coming from heaven D. It can go both ways. Anyway, crucified or not, the idea that Jesus died for our sins is actually a blasphemy in disguise. Christianity says that God gave His only Son (analogous to Abraham giving Isaac) to be crucified for the original sin. Now where is the blashphemy? Ask yourself
Q.Who gave the offering?
A.God.
Q.Whose sins is atoned when an offering is made?
A.The one offering.Peace,
Rami
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Peace Rami,
Q.Who gave the offering?
A.God.
Q.Whose sins is atoned when an offering is made?
A.The one offering.Exactly. This is the exact same point I made in another thread... Even if it was referring to the Jews themselves, you have to consider this when it comes to sacrificial offerings. The sacrifice itself didn't atone for the sins of the people; it was Allah who forgave them. He forgave them based on their repentance, and the sacrifice was a symbol of their repentance. So, this means that the Jews had to willingly sacrifice their offering on the basis of their sincere repentance in order for God to forgive them... Now, according to the Christian story of Jesus, the Jews viewed Jesus as an evil blasphemer. So, they weren't sacrificing Jesus on the basis of requesting forgiveness from Allah. Neither were the Romans. So, how was Jesus sacrificed? It sounds like, according to the Christian interpretation, he was simply crucified and killed, not sacrificed.
Also, according to Ezekial 1819, 20, a man can't die for the sins of his father (or fathers). Since Jesus consistently calls himself the "son of man", then he can't die for the sins of men. This same Biblical book further explains this, reiterating this in verses 25-29. They say
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?" (Ezekial 1825-29)
So, if Christians conclude that Jesus, a righteous man, died for the sins of wicked humans, this is concluding that God is unjust, which is a contradiction of their scripture. Based on the Bible itself, there is no way that Jesus died for the sins of humanity; in fact, he didn't even die for the sins of one person. This is, according to God's unchanging law, unscriptural and blasphemous.
Peace,
Ahmad
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the idea that Jesus died for our sins is actually a blasphemy in disguise.
100% agreed.
This belief has the consequence that a Christian can sin as much as he wants, since Jesus has died for his sins. So, just baptize yourself, and you are guaranteed to be saved.
However, I think the Christians mentioned in the Quran did not believe in that serious heresy. I think it has been added later in the Christian dogmas.
There are similar things in corrupted Islam. For example, the idea that making the hajj will cleanse you of all your sins, or the idea that doing the salaat 5 times a day (plus the other pillars) is enough to save you. The consequences of these beliefs are that the so called muslims believe they can sin (lying, backbiting, not fulfilling ones promises, etc?) without having to pay for that.
Peace
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John 10
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep.
In Jesus' own words He sacrificed His life for ours.
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John 10
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep.
In Jesus' own words He sacrificed His life for ours.
I lay down my life for the sheep, is not the same as I have died for the sheep.
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Peace all,
'God sent His only Son to die for our sins'
Whats wrong with this statement?
Nothing much really. It simply means God is making a sin offering to a Higher Being using his only son to atone for the the sins of mankind. It seems this higher being likes human sacrifices and is oblivious to the the logical fact that no soul carries the burden of another. Christianity rules.
Peace,
Rami
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I understand how difficult this whole idea is for Muslims to understand. Jesus preaching the opposite of what Mohammad preached. The Old Testament prescribed animal sacrifice for man's sins, attonement ammends.
John 1
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.GOD is just, pure justice. In a pure just system debts/sin must be paid. Jesus commanded by GOD paid that debt in full for man. You are not forced to believe this, you have free will to choose. GOD will judge you by what you choose to believe. If you accept the gift you are given grace. The true peace you receive is
You must read further to see how Jesus lays His life down for His sheep -man. I find it funny that you would listen to a man of today, Michel Coquet and not the eyewitnesses of the Gospel that your Quran validates.
John 12
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 13
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. -
The pre-Christian sin atonement ceremony stopped working
From ancient times, up until 70 A.D., Judaism relied on the Temple in Jerusalem to carry out the ceremonies associated with Yom Kippur, a very important holiday during which Judaism symbolically atoned for sin.The origins and details of Yom Kippur trace their roots back into the oldest books of the Bible.
This yearly ceremony, however, hasn't been carried out in the prescribed manner, with the Temple, since the first century. In other words, the world has not seen a by-the-book sin atonement sacrifice from Judaism during the past 19 centuries.
Was it just a coincidence?
During the same century in which Jesus died for our sins, Judaism lost the ability to carry out the yearly symbolic atonement for sin at the Temple.
In other words, during the same century in which Jesus became the real and permanent atonement for sin, Judaism lost the ability to carry out the symbolic and temporary atonement-for-sin ceremony at the Temple.
But there is additional information about Yom Kippur that might prove of interest, and it comes from the Talmud, which is a collection of ancient Rabbinical discussions and commentary, often focusing on Jewish law, customs and ceremonies.
The Talmud was compiled in a written form from about 200 AD to about 500 AD.
There is a passage in the Talmud that says that the Yom Kippur ceremony stopped working properly 40 years before the Temple was destroyed. Among others things, there was a red piece of cloth that was supposed to turn white, symbolizing the atonement of sin. And, according to the Talmud, the red cloth stopped turning white 40 years before the destruction of the Temple
and it has further been taught 'For forty years before the destruction of the Temple the thread of scarlet never turned white but it remained red'. - Rosh HaShanah 31b, Babylonian Talmud, Soncino Press Edition.
In other words, we have a Judaic source claiming that Judaism's sin-atonement ceremony stopped working properly in or around 30 AD. That course would be either the same year, or very close to the same year, that Jesus became the permanent atonement of sin.
By G.R. Konig
[email protected]
?G.R. Konig and About-Jesus.org -
I understand how difficult this whole idea is for Muslims to understand. Jesus preaching the opposite of what Mohammad preached. The Old Testament prescribed animal sacrifice for man's sins, attonement ammends.
John 1
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.GOD is just, pure justice. In a pure just system debts/sin must be paid. Jesus commanded by GOD paid that debt in full for man. You are not forced to believe this, you have free will to choose. GOD will judge you by what you choose to believe. If you accept the gift you are given grace. The true peace you receive is
You must read further to see how Jesus lays His life down for His sheep -man. I find it funny that you would listen to a man of today, Michel Coquet and not the eyewitnesses of the Gospel that your Quran validates.
John 12
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 13
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.Im realy sorry for you what you are posting are clearly man words, jhone sais smith said jesus said ???
hypno
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Peace Pvb,
GOD is just, pure justice. In a pure just system debts/sin must be paid.
I'm sorry, but this is completely illogical. I used to believe sincerely in the Christian doctrines, and this concept still made absolutely no sense, even back then. How can a god, who operates in absolute justice, condemn a righteous man to die for the sins of the wicked people? Isn't this the same thing God condemned in the Bible (i.e. Ezekial 1? The righteous can't die for the sins of the wicked; this is injustice. That's like me going to prison for another person's crimes. If this is what God is orchestrating, how can you call Him a "just god"? -\ If a righteous man gains life for his works, then a wicked man must gain death for his works. This is equality, and this is justice. To punish the righteous people for the sins of the evil people is absolute injustice, and it depicts God as an unjust god and a liar, which is outrageous. We must pay our own debts, and according to the Bible, the "wages sin pays is death". Since every man since, then every man dies. If Jesus took away all sin, then people would be incapable of dying. Is this the case? I suggest you look at the statistics for how many people worldwide die every year...
Peace,
Ahmad
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LOL!! It does to me and every Christian I know.
Jesus was not a man like us. It is like a friend repaying a debt to a bank for you.
Problem is you and I would never be able to be in the presence of GOD, we are not holy enough!! It is not because of something our ancestors did but what we do everyday-sin!!
Your arguement doesn't make any sense!
How do Muslims explain people dying everyday if they don't believe in original sin?
Obviously all these people dying because they have not done enough good deeds?LOL! We are talking of the life after this one on earth.
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LOL!! It does to me and every Christian I know.
Jesus was not a man like us. It is like a friend repaying a debt to a bank for you.
Problem is you and I would never be able to be in the presence of GOD, we are not holy enough!! It is not because of something our ancestors did but what we do everyday-sin!!
Your arguement doesn't make any sense!
How do Muslims explain people dying everyday if they don't believe in original sin?
Obviously all these people dying because they have not done enough good deeds?LOL! We are talking of the life after this one on earth.
Then why didn't God send this crucial Son to be killed for our sins at the time of Adam. No friend. If you walk with God, you are good to go. Noah walked with God. Was Noah an impossible man? No. Abraham walked with God and became God's friend. Did he accept any saviour? No. Only when you do good deeds and dont insist on the bad you get closer to God. This a fact in the Torah and the Quran. You are like the pagan arabs, they also thought Allat and AlUzza and Manat are the daughters of God and through them you can reach to the Father. Don't be a pagan. God is near and He is only one out there so take Him alone as your savior.
Peace,
Rami
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Salam
Secular historians do not record that Jesus (pbh) died on the cross. Not even many prominent, so called, 'Bible Scholars' maintain this. If I were to refer to an exhaustive list of articles on this subject, the list would become unmanageable.
However, since Jesus (pbh) was evidently 'winessed' to be alive after the event of crusifixion, the burden of proof that he (pbh) died on the cross, is not upon humanity at large, rather on those who believe in his (pbh) resurrection from the dead! That Jesus (pbh) was alive after the event, there is no doubt. Is there any precedence in the history of humanity, that a person having 'actually' killed or died, came back to life?
But, that Jesus (pbh) later died naturally of old age, there can be no doubt . As for his (pbh) grave ... well I don't know where my own great, great grandfather's is.
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Peace Yalnizim,
Secular historians do not record that Jesus (pbh) died on the cross. Not even many prominent, so called, 'Bible Scholars' maintain this. If I were to refer to an exhaustive list of articles on this subject, the list would become unmanageable.
However, since Jesus (pbh) was evidently 'winessed' to be alive after the event of crusifixion, the burden of proof that he (pbh) died on the cross, is not upon humanity at large, rather on those who believe in his (pbh) resurrection from the dead! That Jesus (pbh) was alive after the event, there is no doubt. Is there any precedence in the history of humanity, that a person having 'actually' killed or died, came back to life?
But, that Jesus (pbh) later died naturally of old age, there can be no doubt . As for his (pbh) grave ... well I don't know where my own great, great grandfather's is.
Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example
Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)
This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Yalnizim,
Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example
Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)
This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.
Peace,
Ahmad
Can we have a study of that original words used for the translation of "I am terminating your life" - innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya, because in other translations it's something like "I shall cause you to die", "I will gather you" or "I will take you"... .