How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?
-
The pre-Christian sin atonement ceremony stopped working
From ancient times, up until 70 A.D., Judaism relied on the Temple in Jerusalem to carry out the ceremonies associated with Yom Kippur, a very important holiday during which Judaism symbolically atoned for sin.The origins and details of Yom Kippur trace their roots back into the oldest books of the Bible.
This yearly ceremony, however, hasn't been carried out in the prescribed manner, with the Temple, since the first century. In other words, the world has not seen a by-the-book sin atonement sacrifice from Judaism during the past 19 centuries.
Was it just a coincidence?
During the same century in which Jesus died for our sins, Judaism lost the ability to carry out the yearly symbolic atonement for sin at the Temple.
In other words, during the same century in which Jesus became the real and permanent atonement for sin, Judaism lost the ability to carry out the symbolic and temporary atonement-for-sin ceremony at the Temple.
But there is additional information about Yom Kippur that might prove of interest, and it comes from the Talmud, which is a collection of ancient Rabbinical discussions and commentary, often focusing on Jewish law, customs and ceremonies.
The Talmud was compiled in a written form from about 200 AD to about 500 AD.
There is a passage in the Talmud that says that the Yom Kippur ceremony stopped working properly 40 years before the Temple was destroyed. Among others things, there was a red piece of cloth that was supposed to turn white, symbolizing the atonement of sin. And, according to the Talmud, the red cloth stopped turning white 40 years before the destruction of the Temple
and it has further been taught 'For forty years before the destruction of the Temple the thread of scarlet never turned white but it remained red'. - Rosh HaShanah 31b, Babylonian Talmud, Soncino Press Edition.
In other words, we have a Judaic source claiming that Judaism's sin-atonement ceremony stopped working properly in or around 30 AD. That course would be either the same year, or very close to the same year, that Jesus became the permanent atonement of sin.
By G.R. Konig
[email protected]
?G.R. Konig and About-Jesus.org -
I understand how difficult this whole idea is for Muslims to understand. Jesus preaching the opposite of what Mohammad preached. The Old Testament prescribed animal sacrifice for man's sins, attonement ammends.
John 1
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.GOD is just, pure justice. In a pure just system debts/sin must be paid. Jesus commanded by GOD paid that debt in full for man. You are not forced to believe this, you have free will to choose. GOD will judge you by what you choose to believe. If you accept the gift you are given grace. The true peace you receive is
You must read further to see how Jesus lays His life down for His sheep -man. I find it funny that you would listen to a man of today, Michel Coquet and not the eyewitnesses of the Gospel that your Quran validates.
John 12
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 13
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.Im realy sorry for you what you are posting are clearly man words, jhone sais smith said jesus said ???
hypno
-
Peace Pvb,
GOD is just, pure justice. In a pure just system debts/sin must be paid.
I'm sorry, but this is completely illogical. I used to believe sincerely in the Christian doctrines, and this concept still made absolutely no sense, even back then. How can a god, who operates in absolute justice, condemn a righteous man to die for the sins of the wicked people? Isn't this the same thing God condemned in the Bible (i.e. Ezekial 1? The righteous can't die for the sins of the wicked; this is injustice. That's like me going to prison for another person's crimes. If this is what God is orchestrating, how can you call Him a "just god"? -\ If a righteous man gains life for his works, then a wicked man must gain death for his works. This is equality, and this is justice. To punish the righteous people for the sins of the evil people is absolute injustice, and it depicts God as an unjust god and a liar, which is outrageous. We must pay our own debts, and according to the Bible, the "wages sin pays is death". Since every man since, then every man dies. If Jesus took away all sin, then people would be incapable of dying. Is this the case? I suggest you look at the statistics for how many people worldwide die every year...
Peace,
Ahmad
-
LOL!! It does to me and every Christian I know.
Jesus was not a man like us. It is like a friend repaying a debt to a bank for you.
Problem is you and I would never be able to be in the presence of GOD, we are not holy enough!! It is not because of something our ancestors did but what we do everyday-sin!!
Your arguement doesn't make any sense!
How do Muslims explain people dying everyday if they don't believe in original sin?
Obviously all these people dying because they have not done enough good deeds?LOL! We are talking of the life after this one on earth.
-
LOL!! It does to me and every Christian I know.
Jesus was not a man like us. It is like a friend repaying a debt to a bank for you.
Problem is you and I would never be able to be in the presence of GOD, we are not holy enough!! It is not because of something our ancestors did but what we do everyday-sin!!
Your arguement doesn't make any sense!
How do Muslims explain people dying everyday if they don't believe in original sin?
Obviously all these people dying because they have not done enough good deeds?LOL! We are talking of the life after this one on earth.
Then why didn't God send this crucial Son to be killed for our sins at the time of Adam. No friend. If you walk with God, you are good to go. Noah walked with God. Was Noah an impossible man? No. Abraham walked with God and became God's friend. Did he accept any saviour? No. Only when you do good deeds and dont insist on the bad you get closer to God. This a fact in the Torah and the Quran. You are like the pagan arabs, they also thought Allat and AlUzza and Manat are the daughters of God and through them you can reach to the Father. Don't be a pagan. God is near and He is only one out there so take Him alone as your savior.
Peace,
Rami
-
Salam
Secular historians do not record that Jesus (pbh) died on the cross. Not even many prominent, so called, 'Bible Scholars' maintain this. If I were to refer to an exhaustive list of articles on this subject, the list would become unmanageable.
However, since Jesus (pbh) was evidently 'winessed' to be alive after the event of crusifixion, the burden of proof that he (pbh) died on the cross, is not upon humanity at large, rather on those who believe in his (pbh) resurrection from the dead! That Jesus (pbh) was alive after the event, there is no doubt. Is there any precedence in the history of humanity, that a person having 'actually' killed or died, came back to life?
But, that Jesus (pbh) later died naturally of old age, there can be no doubt . As for his (pbh) grave ... well I don't know where my own great, great grandfather's is.
-
Peace Yalnizim,
Secular historians do not record that Jesus (pbh) died on the cross. Not even many prominent, so called, 'Bible Scholars' maintain this. If I were to refer to an exhaustive list of articles on this subject, the list would become unmanageable.
However, since Jesus (pbh) was evidently 'winessed' to be alive after the event of crusifixion, the burden of proof that he (pbh) died on the cross, is not upon humanity at large, rather on those who believe in his (pbh) resurrection from the dead! That Jesus (pbh) was alive after the event, there is no doubt. Is there any precedence in the history of humanity, that a person having 'actually' killed or died, came back to life?
But, that Jesus (pbh) later died naturally of old age, there can be no doubt . As for his (pbh) grave ... well I don't know where my own great, great grandfather's is.
Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example
Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)
This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace Yalnizim,
Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example
Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)
This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.
Peace,
Ahmad
Can we have a study of that original words used for the translation of "I am terminating your life" - innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya, because in other translations it's something like "I shall cause you to die", "I will gather you" or "I will take you"... .
-
You are reading more into the Quran then what is there. The only things that it says is that the Jews did not crucify Jesus!!
Yes!!- it was all in GOD's plan for HIM to terminate Jesus' time on earth.
See the part I made bold
John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."Jesus died sooner, GOD terminated Jesus' life. Yes!! GOD saved Jesus from further pain and humiliation from all those wanting Him to be crucified!!
-
You are reading more into the Quran then what is there. The only things that it says is that the Jews did not crucify Jesus!!
Yes!!- it was all in GOD's plan for HIM to terminate Jesus' time on earth.
See the part I made bold
John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."Jesus died sooner, GOD terminated Jesus' life. Yes!! GOD saved Jesus from further pain and humiliation from all those wanting Him to be crucified!!
I would only trust the words of Jesus. Are any of those Jesus's words?
-
Peace Yalnizim,
Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example
Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)
This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.
Peace,
Ahmad
Irrespective of whether Jesus (pbh) died before or after the event of crucifixion, I am bit confused by your argument. If Allah causes someone to die, is that an UNNATURAL death? Or do you believe that Allah had planned a longer life for Jesus (pbh) ... and then seeing the disbelievers plot to kill Jesus (pbh) ... Allah decided to 'terminate' his life prematurely? Who then was laid on the cross? If you subscribe to the view that it was a person transformed into a likeness of Jesus (pbh), where do you get it from. 'Shub'be-ha' refers to 'an event' and does not mean 'Tashbeeh = likeness' >> anyone with slightest knowledge of Arabic would know this. Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned.
Why can't we accept a purely valid, commonsense, logical explanation , that Jesus (pbh) was placed upon the cross, but he was not crucified . Rather, he fainted due to the weakness and suffering caused him ... he was rescued and taken to a chamber by two of his followers who resuscitated him. Jesus, after having recovered, appeared (albeit in a disguise) to his few chosen followers. These facts are substantiated even by the New Testament. Is this not miraculous enough for those who seek miracles?
NOTE Exactly like 'Hanging' means to cause death, not just suspend a person by the rope, 'Crucifixion' means inflicting actual death, not just placing a person upon a cross!!
This is exactly what Qur'na majeed states ... 'wa maa salabu'hu' ... 'They did not crucify him ...' . Qur'an does not state 'wa maa 3alaqu'hu' .
In any event, whatever the explanation and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an. The disbelievers plotted their best in trying to kill Jesus (pbh) but Allah defeated all their machinations ... this is a fundamental belief, the rest is open to personal interpretation. A point which I no longer care to argue about. Was'salaam
-
FAR - Those were the GOD inspired words of eyewitnesses to the event. Do you own a Bible?
Yes, you are a Quran only Muslim!! That is a good point!
There is a difference between hadith and eyewitnesses though, we have much of the GOD inspired original writings of the eyewitneses. Hadith was passed down orally for a couple of hundred years before it was written down. No one has a solid back up that an event ever happened. In the Gospels you have the 4 to validate each other.
Anyway your Quran validates the Gospel!!
Some prophecies of Jesus
Psalm 22
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him?
may your hearts live forever!27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him?
those who cannot keep themselves alive.30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn?
for he has done it.Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.I wonder if this verse is why the Gnostics believed that Jesus was a spirit only?
-
yalnizim - No, it is part of GOD's plan of salvation for us. No, if you were to read the Holy Bible you would see hints from Jesus that He knew that He was sent for this specific purpose.
GOD allowed Jesus to die at the time He felt the sacrifice was done
Not sure what you mean by this-"Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned." Never a thought of Christians.
We know that Jesus was dead because the Roman soldier pierced His side. Remember it was the job of the soldiers to make sure that thoe crucified were in fact dead..
Actually working in a hospital for 20 years yes the dead can seep blood, especially when pooled with other body fluids that would have been in His lungs because of the way He hung.
and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an.
Yes, it was GOD's plan
http//www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/jesusdeath.html
-
yalnizim - No, it is part of GOD's plan of salvation for us. No, if you were to read the Holy Bible you would see hints from Jesus that He knew that He was sent for this specific purpose.
GOD allowed Jesus to die at the time He felt the sacrifice was done
Not sure what you mean by this-"Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned." Never a thought of Christians.
We know that Jesus was dead because the Roman soldier pierced His side. Remember it was the job of the soldiers to make sure that thoe crucified were in fact dead..
Actually working in a hospital for 20 years yes the dead can seep blood, especially when pooled with other body fluids that would have been in His lungs because of the way He hung.
and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an.
Yes, it was GOD's plan
http//www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/jesusdeath.html
The Jews say Uzair is Allah?s son; and the Christians say The Messiah is Allah?s son? ?Allah ruin them, how they are turned away from the truth. They have taken their divines and their monks for lords besides Allah, and also the Messiah son of Mary. They had only been commanded to worship the One God. There is no god but He. Holy is He above that which they associate with Him. They desire to extinguish the light of Allah by blowing through their mouths, but Allah utterly rejects everything except that He will perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may dislike it. He it is who sent His Messenger of Truth, that He may make it (Islam) prevail over every other religion, even though those who associate partners with Allah may dislike it. (Surah 930-34)
-
- Qur'an says so
- a lot of "apocryphal" gospels say the same
- histories of crucifixion/resurrection of a messiah are older than Isa and recently found in the scriptures of the Qumran cave in Palestine
-
Its not crucifixion thats important but the trinity
both are fake and existing before Isa came
-
Bigmo- I don't know? Is it more important that we understand and know GOD completely? Or is it more important to thank GOD for the amazing gift of grace He has given us? More people can understand the sacrifice, does that hold ore weight?
Jehovah Witness- They understand the relationship of GOD and Jesus differently then me, but they do try to follow all of Jesus' teachings.
John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Can mean His sacrifice, or following His greatests commands
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."mujahingle - some of the gospels are fakes. There is even a difference between the Barnabas Gospel and Barnabas Epistle. The Qumram scrolls do talk about a Teacher of Righteousness- Is this Jesus? Or is this John the Baptists?
I would like to know all the multile meanings of the words in verse 4157
TransliterationWaqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
LiteralAnd their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.
There is a big difference between not putting Jesus on a cross and crucifying Him.
I think this verse might hold the answer to whether the Quran has been misinterpreted, Mohammad is a false prophet, or the Quran was really written in Armaic/Syriac.
There is another verse I will start another thread on that one.
Where is Arnab when we need him?
-
some of the gospels are fakes.
of course, and a lot of verses in the bible too.
so how we can know?simple, with the qur'an
in the qur'an it is written isa isn't died in the cross. stop.