The Sadducees, The Pharisees and the Zoroastrian Connection
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Thats why Jesus didn't bother playing with the Sadducees. He kept cursing the Pharisees for the traditions of men they are preaching although he himself started to preach the same Zoroastrian ideas!! Does this mean Jesus had no idea what he is talking about? Even the Quran mocks the Jews for thinking that Hell is for a limited number of days. There is no reference for Hell in the Hebrew scriptures but you find this 'burn in hell for 12 months to purify your sins' in the Talmud! So its a miracle that Jews believe in Hell in the first place. Are you getting the pattern here? To bypass this dilemma and paradox, you have to reach the undeniable conclusion
That the Torah of today is not 'Kitab Mousa' God is talking about!! But using the Dead sea scrolls, the Torah of today is almost the same. Whats even more troubling the Quran asks the Jews to bring the Torah and recite it?! Jesus also said I confirm the Law! Can this mean that both figures are oblivious to what is in the Book of Moses?But look these verses
5336 Or was he not informed of the teachings in the Scriptures of Moses?
5337 And of Abraham who fulfilled?
5338 None can carry the burdens of another.
5339 And the human being will have what he sought.
5340 And his works will be shown.
5341 Then he will be paid fully for such works.
5342 And to your Lord is the final destiny.8717 But the Hereafter is better and more lasting.
8718 This has been revealed in the previous scripts.
8719 The scripts of Abraham and Moses.Where are these teaching in the Book of Moses?! This destroys the theory that these concepts were hidden from the ancients. Heck, God said to Moses in the Quran don't even think to disbelieve in the afterlife lest you lose!
2011 So when he came to it he was called O Moses.
2012 I am your Lord, so take off your slippers; you are in the holy valley Tuwa.
2013 And I have chosen you, so listen to what is being inspired.
2014 I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the communion for My remembrance.
2015 The Hour is coming, I am nearly keeping it hidden, so that every soul will be recompensed with what is strived.
2016 So do not be deterred from it by he who does not believe in it and followed his desire and perished.Did you know there is not even a Salat or timed remembrance in the Book of Moses!! Again only found in Zoroastrianism (even the ablution is found there!), the Jewish traditions, Book of Daniel! Echoing in the NT and the Quran. The same pattern again. If it was really removed from the Torah, when did that happen and why?!
Peace,
Rami
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The Sadducees could also have originated with the phonecian high priests who were allowed to stay in place when the israelite tribes conqured the region. They also had some concept of one god but didn't believe in the afterlife.
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The Sadducees could also have originated with the phonecian high priests who were allowed to stay in place when the israelite tribes conqured the region. They also had some concept of one god but didn't believe in the afterlife.
Peace liquid,
The Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife for a reason. It is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. It is started with Zoroastrianism entering into the oral Jewish traditions then the NT and the Quran. We can say that the Jewish tradition contain revelations from God because it seems when the Quran says we have wrote for the children of Israel so and so, you find it in the Talmud and not in the Hebrew bible!
Peace,
Rami
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Peace liquid,
The Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife for a reason. It is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. It is started with Zoroastrianism entering into the oral Jewish traditions then the NT and the Quran. We can say that the Jewish tradition contain revelations from God because it seems when the Quran says we have wrote for the children of Israel so and so, you find it in the Talmud and not in the Hebrew bible!
Peace,
Rami
This is a good post and an important one. I am not an expert in the OT but I can say that there are many concepts you will find in one scripture more than another. The NT has references to hell, the Koran has many as we know. The Old Testament(OT) tends to use the term "Sheole" or "Shyeol" meaning a pit or below ground and in some cases understood as death. However the Koran uses pit in reference to hell also. "Then, he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy, Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light,- Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit. And what will explain to thee what this is? (It is) a Fire Blazing fiercely!" (Qur'an 1016-11).
It also uses Zamhareer which some believe is tormenting cold. There are different levels of hell mentioned in the Koran and different adjectives used.
According to the Quran, hell is a place of raging, fiercely blazing fire (Surah 7312; 9214; 10111) with leaping, piercing, burning flames (Surah 410; 1797; 2511; 3710; 4813; 7730-31; 8510; 1046-7), in which people ?neither die nor live? (Surah 8712-13). In addition to flames, hell also contains scorching winds, black smoke (Surah 5642-43), and boiling hot water through which the disbelievers will be dragged (Surah 4071-72; 5544). In fact, unbelievers will both drink and be drenched with boiling water
Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (Surah 1830, emp. added).
These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them) Taste the doom of burning (Surah 2219-22, emp. added; cf. 670; 105; 3767; 4448; 5654,93)
The ingested boiling water will cut and tear the bowels (Surah 4715). Yet the drinking of boiling water apparently will be accompanied by an occasional cold drink ?Hell, where they will burn, an evil resting place. Here is a boiling and an ice-cold draught, so let them taste it, and other (torment) of the kind in pairs (the two extremes)!? (Surah 3857-59, emp. added; cf. 7824-25). Ali renders the phrase ?a boiling fluid, and a fluid dark, murky, intensely cold!?
In addition to liquid, the diet of the unbeliever will include some solid food ?On that day (many) faces will be downcast, toiling, weary, scorched by burning fire, drinking from a boiling spring, no food for them save bitter thorn-fruit which doth not nourish nor release from hunger? (Surah 882-7, emp. added). The Quran alleges the existence of a specific tree from which hell?s occupants will eat
Is this better as a welcome, or the tree of Zaqqum? Lo! We have appointed it a torment for wrong-doers. Lo! it is a tree that springeth in the heart of hell. Its crop is as it were the heads of devils. And lo! they verily must eat thereof, and fill (their) bellies therewith. And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water (Surah 3762-67).
All will certainly be gathered together for the meeting appointed for a Day well-known. Then will you truly?O you that go wrong, and treat (Truth) as Falsehood!?you will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum. Then will you fill your insides therewith, and drink Boiling Water on top of it Indeed you shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst! Such will be their entertainment on the Day of Requital! (Surah 5650-56, Ali?s translation).
Lo! the tree of Zaqqum, the food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies as the seething of boiling water (Surah 4443-46). http//www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2233
The problem is that you can not rely on Sunni sources to know the Koran because they neglect many verses or misinterpret many verses so Its hard to know what the OT really says unless a proper research is done.
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This is a good post and an important one. I am not an expert in the OT but I can say that there are many concepts you will find in one scripture more than another. The NT has references to hell, the Koran has many as we know. The Old Testament(OT) tends to use the term "Sheole" or "Shyeol" meaning a pit or below ground and in some cases understood as death. However the Koran uses pit in reference to hell also. "Then, he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy, Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light,- Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit. And what will explain to thee what this is? (It is) a Fire Blazing fiercely!" (Qur'an 1016-11).
It also uses Zamhareer which some believe is tormenting cold. There are different levels of hell mentioned in the Koran and different adjectives used.
According to the Quran, hell is a place of raging, fiercely blazing fire (Surah 7312; 9214; 10111) with leaping, piercing, burning flames (Surah 410; 1797; 2511; 3710; 4813; 7730-31; 8510; 1046-7), in which people neither die nor live (Surah 8712-13). In addition to flames, hell also contains scorching winds, black smoke (Surah 5642-43), and boiling hot water through which the disbelievers will be dragged (Surah 4071-72; 5544). In fact, unbelievers will both drink and be drenched with boiling water
Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (Surah 1830, emp. added).
These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them) Taste the doom of burning (Surah 2219-22, emp. added; cf. 670; 105; 3767; 4448; 5654,93)
The ingested boiling water will cut and tear the bowels (Surah 4715). Yet the drinking of boiling water apparently will be accompanied by an occasional cold drink Hell, where they will burn, an evil resting place. Here is a boiling and an ice-cold draught, so let them taste it, and other (torment) of the kind in pairs (the two extremes)! (Surah 3857-59, emp. added; cf. 7824-25). Ali renders the phrase a boiling fluid, and a fluid dark, murky, intensely cold!
In addition to liquid, the diet of the unbeliever will include some solid food On that day (many) faces will be downcast, toiling, weary, scorched by burning fire, drinking from a boiling spring, no food for them save bitter thorn-fruit which doth not nourish nor release from hunger (Surah 882-7, emp. added). The Quran alleges the existence of a specific tree from which hells occupants will eat
Is this better as a welcome, or the tree of Zaqqum? Lo! We have appointed it a torment for wrong-doers. Lo! it is a tree that springeth in the heart of hell. Its crop is as it were the heads of devils. And lo! they verily must eat thereof, and fill (their) bellies therewith. And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water (Surah 3762-67).
All will certainly be gathered together for the meeting appointed for a Day well-known. Then will you trulyO you that go wrong, and treat (Truth) as Falsehood!you will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum. Then will you fill your insides therewith, and drink Boiling Water on top of it Indeed you shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst! Such will be their entertainment on the Day of Requital! (Surah 5650-56, Alis translation).
Lo! the tree of Zaqqum, the food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies as the seething of boiling water (Surah 4443-46). http//www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2233
The problem is that you can not rely on Sunni sources to know the Koran because they neglect many verses or misinterpret many verses so Its hard to know what the OT really says unless a proper research is done.
Peace Bigmo,
Thanks for the reply. Regarding Zamahareer, God is stating that there is no harsh winters in Paradise but a comfortable temperatures at all times. It is not even sunny. It is always shady. It has nothing to do with the Fire which is always hot! These are sunni garbage ideas because they think becasue the Jinns are made up of fire so their ideal torment is cryotherapy D. Completely unquranic. Anyway, the Hebrew scriptures have a scary silence regarding the afterlife, it is only when you start reading the NT, the blazing fire gets ignited and the Kingdom of God starts to show up. Watch the following videos and see how when Jews rely solely on the Hebrew scripts, they deny at least hell or the afterlife as a whole
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KD8umx2RJ4 (Jahannum or Geyhinnom was a name of a valley in Jerusalem that suddenly became Hell in the Quran).
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNuGBKpXIks (Watch both parts. Note how God punished the people of old when they turn wicked. Why did he do this if the hellfire is enough for their punishment?)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ipRZyqr3RE (Watch both parts. See how satan which means opposer started to be personified in the NT and the Quran.)
Peace,
Rami
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The problem is u don't really know the OT. There is a concept of afterlife in the OT
Eternal Pleasures
David wrote that God would not abandon him to the grave and would provide eternal pleasures in the afterlifeTherefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand. (Psalm 169-11)
The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. (Isaiah 571-2, emphasis ours)
The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end. (Isaiah 6019-20)
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. (Isaiah 2619)
Isaiah 6622-24
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."Daniel 122 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Psalm 236 Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Job 1925-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Psalms 169, 10 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave
my soul in hell..."Isaiah 514, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that
rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the
mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."Isaiah 149 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming;
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."Ecclesiastes 127 ...then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
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The problem is u don't really know the OT. There is a concept of afterlife in the OT
Eternal Pleasures
David wrote that God would not abandon him to the grave and would provide eternal pleasures in the afterlifeTherefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand. (Psalm 169-11)
The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. (Isaiah 571-2, emphasis ours)
The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end. (Isaiah 6019-20)
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. (Isaiah 2619)
Isaiah 6622-24
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."Daniel 122 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Psalm 236 Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Job 1925-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Psalms 169, 10 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave
my soul in hell..."Isaiah 514, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that
rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the
mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."Isaiah 149 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming;
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."Ecclesiastes 127 ...then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Peace Bigmo,
Bring a reference of the afterlife in the Pentateuch not in the later writings. You are simply proving that the concept of Afterlife came later on. There is no 'Hell' in the OT. It is the grave. The OT states that all the souls go to Sheol.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace all,
I stumbled upon a short article that shares the same idea.
The Role of Zoroastrianism and Cyrus on Judaic Eschatology
In most historical reading, the Jews saw Cyrus the Great as an emancipator of the Jewish people from the oppressive Babylonian Empire. In actuality, Cyrus had a much greater role in the history of the Jewish people than he is given credit. This paper will examine the role of Cyrus, King of Persia, and Zoroastrianism in influencing Jewish dogma on important issues, namely Jewish eschatology. For the purposes of this paper, eschatology will be defined as the concepts of judgment, afterlife, and resurrection. Cyrus was responsible for declaring Zoroastrianism as Persias official religion, which allowed Zoroastrianism and Judaism to come in contact with each other and influence Judaic theology. Without Zoroastrian and Cyrus influences on the Jewish population, the face of Judaism would be very different than today.
The Jewish people were sent into exile by Babylonian invaders in 587 BCE and eventually became part of the Persian Empire under the rule of Cyrus the Great. Cyrus established the Persian Empire in the 6th century BCE and quickly recognized Zoroastrianism as the religion of Persia (Bowker 1070). During the exilic period of the Jewish people, there was significant cultural diffusion among the Persian and Jewish people, which produced an exchange of theological ideas that can be seen today, especially involving eschatology.
Perhaps one of the most prominent reasons for the Jewish acceptance of many Zoroastrian ideas was because Cyrus declared all citizens under the Persian Empire free to practice any religion they wanted. Because it was not forced on them, many Jewish people did not resent Zoroastrianism, and in fact became very open to Zoroastrian theology (Fisher 246). As time progressed, Cyrus rule worked to the advantage of the Jewish people because he freed them from exile in 538 BCE, but the Jews returned with theological concepts that they had adopted from the Zoroastrian population in Persia.
Before examining Zoroastrianisms influence on Judaism, it is important to examine pre-exilic Judaic thought regarding eschatology. In pre-exilic Judaism, the concepts of heaven and hell were not present. Instead, a place called Sheol was the only destination for souls after death. Because there was a single destination for all souls in the afterlife, whether they were good or bad, the idea of judgment was not present in pre-exilic Judaic theology. The Encyclopedia of Religion defines Sheol as a shadowy place sometimes synonymous with the grave, where the vitality and energy associated with worldly life are drastically decreased (450). Sheol was not the absence of Gods care, because his power extended to Sheol; however, it was certainly not a heavenly place because it was not a desirable location to be. In fact, one would rather be a poor beggar in the land of the living than a king in the land of the dead (Eliade 45.
In order to prove that Sheol was specific only to pre-exilic Judaic thought, it is necessary to examine the Old Testament. According to the Revised Standard Version of the Holy Bible, Sheol is mentioned throughout the Old Testament, most importantly in Genesis (3735, 4238, 4429, 4431), Numbers (1630, 1633) and Deuteronomy (3322). The passages that cite Sheol are relatively unimportant, but the books and the dates in which they were written are important because they dictate whether Sheol was mentioned before exilic Judaism. Genesis, Numbers, and Deuteronomy made up three of the five books of Moses, which were the Jewish Pentateuch. Although there is some argumentation whether Moses was the author of the Pentateuch, his stories nevertheless occurred during his life, which was estimated to be between the 13th or 12th century BCE (Fisher 232-233). Because Sheol was mentioned in the Pentateuch between during the life of Moses, it was a Judaic idea well before Jewish exile to Babylon (dated at 587 BCE) and therefore verifies that the concept of Sheol was a pre-exilic idea.
In order to understand how Zoroastrianism under the rein of Cyrus affected the Jews, it is first necessary to understand the relevant concepts in Zoroastrian thought related to eschatology. In Zoroastrian thought, three days after death, the soul of a decreased person was resurrected up to a high bridge called Chinvat Bridge, which was where judgment occurred. The scales of Rashn judged the soul, and two separate events would occur based on the moral character of the soul. If the soul was evil, Vizarsh would take the soul and beat and torment it scornfully and wrathfully (Boyce 83). In contrast, those who had lived a good life and passed Rashns test of morality, were taken to a world that was free from peril and adversity know peace for a long while (Boyce 86).
Obviously Zoroastrian eschatology differed greatly from pre-exilic Judaic eschatology. The differences between the two religions were significant because after the Jewish exile, many of the differences turned into similarities. Although both religions believed in an afterlife, Zoroastrianism contained the concept of two separate possible afterlives, heaven and hell, in which souls were sent based on a system of judgment, which was also not found in pre-exilic Judaism. Furthermore, Zoroastrians believed in resurrection of the soul in order to be judged, whereas Judaic thought at the time only held that the soul was sent to Sheol, where no type of resurrection occurred.
After the Jews returned from exile, they began to develop into the Rabbinical Judaism that is seen today, which is also known as post-exilic Judaism. Post-exilic Judaism quickly adopted Zoroastrian-like concepts of judgment, resurrection, and afterlife. In post-exilic Judaism, Sheol became a place synonymous with hell where the wicked were sent, and a new place named Pardes, meaning paradise, was created and reserved for the righteous (Eliade 45. Because there were two separate afterlives in post-exilic Judaism, it can be assumed that some concept of judgment was adopted as well to determine who went to Pardes and who went to Sheol. Therefore, just like in Zoroastrianism, two separate afterlives were created and a system of judgment, which is inherent in any theology of two afterlives.
In continuing with its shift towards Zoroastrian theology, post-exilic Judaism also developed the concept of resurrection for judgment. The Pharisees in post-exilic Judaic culture were the first Jewish teachers to declare the concept of the resurrection of the dead as Judaic dogma (Limburg 132). Because the Pharisees became an established group of the Jewish people around the 2nd century BCE, the earliest the Pharisees could have developed the idea of resurrection was well after the Jewish exile, and therefore was part of post-exilic Judaic though (Limburg 131). Just like with judgment and two separate afterlives, post-exilic Judaisms adoption of the idea of resurrection was consistent in its shift away from pre-exilic ideas and towards Zoroastrian dogma.
It is nearly impossible to ignore the connection between the shift in Judaic thought before and after the Jewish exile while being exposed to Zoroastrianism. Before the Jewish exile, Zoroastrianism and Judaism were nearly completely divided in terms of eschatological thought, but after the exile Judaism adopted several concepts that were consistent with those already practiced in Zoroastrian Persia. The most logical explanation for the change in Judaic dogma is to attribute the shift in thought to a heavy influence on the exiled Jews by Zoroastrians in Persia. In addition, it is important to remember that the only reason why the Jews were exposed to Zoroastrianism was because of Cyrus decision to declare it as the empires religion. If Cyrus had not encouraged Zoroastrianism in Persia, or if the Jews had not been exiled into Babylon, the entire Jewish eschatology may have never changed from pre-exilic theology and many of todays eschatological ideas would not have developed.
Works Cited
Bowker, John, ed. The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions. 1st ed. New York Oxford University Press, 1997.
Fisher, Mary. Living Religions. 5th ed. Upper Saddle River AHM Publishing Corporation, 1979
Eliade, Mircea. "SOUL Jewish Concept." The Encyclopedia of Religion. 1st ed. 1987.
Boyce, Mary. Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism. Chicago The University of Chicago Press, 1984.
Limburg, James. Judaism An Introduction for Christian. 1st ed. Minneapolis Augsburg Publishing House, 1987. -
Peace Bigmo,
Bring a reference of the afterlife in the Pentateuch not in the later writings. You are simply proving that the concept of Afterlife came later on. There is no 'Hell' in the OT. It is the grave. The OT states that all the souls go to Sheol.
Peace,
Rami
There are earlier writings even before the times of Jesus or even the OT like the dead sea scroll which talks about hell and the devil. Also early Christian writings
Hell in the Dead Sea Scrolls
The Dead Sea Scrolls, so vivid in their description of Satan (Belial) and his followers, is no less vivid in describing the ultimate destination of Belial and his followers?Be cursed without mercy because of the darkness of your deeds! Be damned in the shadowy place of everlasting fire!? (Community Rule, 1QS, Geza Vermes translation)
?And the visitation of all who walk in this spirit shall be a multitude of plagues by the hand of all the destroying angels, everlasting damnation by the avenging wrath of the fury of God, eternal torment and endless disgrace together with shameful extinction in the fire of the dark regions. The times of all their generations shall be spent in sorrowful mourning and in bitter misery and in calamities of darkness until they are destroyed without remnant or survivor.? (Community Rule, 1QS, Geza Vermes translation)
?Rise up, rise up, O God of Gods,
raise Thyself in mig{ht, King of Kings}! (4Q491)
May all the Sons of Darkness
The light of Thy greatness
ds? and men.
It shall be like a fire burning
In the dark places of perdition;
It shall burn the sinners in the perdition of hell,
In an eternal blaze
?in all the eternal seasons? (War Scroll, Geza Vermes translation)
?And the gates shall open
the works of Vanity;
and the doors of the Pit shall close
on the conceivers of wickedness;
and the everlasting bars shall by bolted
on all the spirits of Naught? (Thanksgiving Hymn, Geza Vermes translation)
??from your correction and you will establish yourselves to pronounce judgment ov and to see the faults of all the sinners of the ages? into the fire and the oceans and into all the cavities for?in the generations of truth.? (Testament of Qahat, 4Q542, Geza Vermes translation)
?? of Darkness will be dark. ?and by all their knowledge they will?and the Sons of Darkness will be burnt?For all folly and wickedk, and all ce and truth are brigh.? (Testament of Amram, Geza Vermes translation)
Hell in the Christian Apocrypha
For those modern day readers who have read Medieval works such as Dante?s Inferno, with their detailed descriptions of the horrors of hell, a fair question may be ?were the descriptions of the agony of hell described in Inferno all literary license, or are there any early Christian or Jewish era documents that could have served as a model?? Sure, the passages we?ve quoted from the New Testament, the Apocrypha, and the Dead Sea Scrolls describe hell as a very uncomfortable place to be, but in terms much less graphic than the Medieval writers.It turns out that there were early Christian era documents that described hell in much more graphic terms. Some people refer to these as the Christian Apocrypha ? non-Gnostic works that didn?t make the New Testament canon. And while we shouldn?t view them as divinely inspired or authoritative, they do help us trace the development of Christian thought on the subject of hell.
The most interesting one is the Revelation of Peter, a work that appeared on an early list of proposed canonical New Testament works - the Muratori Canon, a fragmentary list (85 lines) dated to c. 200 A.D., named after its 18th century discoverer, Lodovico Muratori. It was quoted from by several of the Early Church Fathers, including Clement of Alexandria.
The Revelation of Peter was lost until 1886 when a French archaeological mission found fragments of it in Egypt. Most scholars view that the Revelation of Peter was written in the second century, thus, it could not have been written by Peter. However, it does seem to have some stylistic similarities with II Peter.
The first part of the Revelation of Peter describes a tour of heaven given to the apostles by two angels. After this encounter, the tone of the Revelation of Peter turns decidedly darker, as the abode of the unrighteous ? and the inhabitants thereof - is described in painful detail.
?20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.
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And there were certain there hanging by the tongue and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them.
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And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.
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And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said I did not believe that I should come into this place.
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And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said O God, thy judgment is just?
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And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.
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And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.
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And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths and these were the false witnesses.
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And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.
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And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest?
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And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment?? (Revelation of Peter, ?The Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 10?, Edited by A. Roberts and J Donaldson, emphasis added)
The second work is the Apocalypse of Paul, which purportedly describes Paul?s adventures in the ?third heaven?. With its emphasis on a well-defined church leadership hierarchy (deacons, bishops, presbyters), we can guess a no-earlier than 2nd or 3rd century date for authorship.
As part of his tour, Paul is shown the punishment of sinners in hell. Among those singled out for eternal punishment ? adulterers, ?thieves, and slanderers, and flatterers?, wayward presbyters, bishops and deacons, and assorted heretics.
?And he said to me Follow me, that I may show thee where the souls of the impious and the sinners are. And he took me to the setting of the sun, and where the beginning of the heaven had been founded upon the river of the ocean. And I saw beyond the river, and there was no light there, but darkness, and grief, and groaning; and I saw a bubbling river, and a great multitude both of men and women who had been cast into it, some up to the knees, others up to the navel, and many even up to the crown of the head. And I asked Who are these? And he said to me These are they who lived unrepenting in fornications and adulteries.
And I saw at the southwest of the river another river, where there flowed a river of fire, and there was there a multitude of many souls. And I asked the angel Who are these, my Lord? And he said to me These are the thieves, and slanderers, and flatterers, who did not set up God as their help, but hoped in the vanity of their riches. And I said to him What is the depth of this river? And he said to me Its depth has no measure, but it is immeasurable. And I groaned and wept because of mankind. And the angel said to me Why weepest thou? Art thou more merciful than God? for, being holy, God, repenting over men, waits for their conversion and repentance; but they, deceived by their own will, come here, and are eternally punished.
And I looked into the fiery river, and saw an old man dragged along by two, and they pulled him in up to the knee. And the angel Temeluch coming, laid hold of an iron with his hand, and with it drew up the entrails of that old man through his mouth. And I asked the angel My Lord, who is this that suffers this punishment? And he said to me This old man whom thou seest was a presbyter; and when he had eaten and drunk, then he performed the service of God. And I saw there another old man carried in haste by four angels; and they threw him into the fiery river up to the girdle, and he was frightfully burnt by the lightnings. And I said to the angel Who is this, my Lord? And he said to me This whom thou seest was a bishop, and that name indeed he was well pleased to have; but in the goodness of God he did not walk, righteous judgment he did not judge, the widow and the orphan he did not pity, he was neither affectionate nor hospitable; but now he has been recompensed according to his works.
And I looked, and saw in the middle of the river another man up to the navel, having his hands all bloody, and worms were coming up through his mouth. And I asked the angel Who is this, my Lord? And he said to me This whom thou seest was a deacon, who ate and drank, and ministered to God. And I looked to another place where there was a brazen wall in flames, and within it men and women eating up their own tongues, dreadfully judged. And I asked the angel Who are these, my Lord? And he said to me These are they who in the church speak against their neighbors, and do not attend to the word of God?
And the angel took me up from these torments, and set me above a well, which had seven seals upon its mouth. And the angel who was with me said to the angel at the well of that place Open the well, that Paul the beloved of God may see, because there has been given to him authority to see the torments. And the angel of the place said to me Stand afar off, until I open the seals. And when he had opened them, there came forth a stench which it was impossible to bear. And having come near the place, I saw that well filled with darkness and gloom, and great narrowness of space in it. And the angel who was with me said to me This place of the well which thou seest is cast off from the glory of God, and none of the angels is importunate in behalf of them; and as many as have professed that the holy Mary is not the mother of God, and that the Lord did not become man out of her, and that the bread of the thanksgiving and the cup of blessing are not His flesh and blood, are cast into this well and as I said before no angel is importunate in their behalf. And I saw towards the setting of the sun, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, many men and women there tormented. And I said to the angel Who are these, my Lord? And he said to me These are they who say that there is no resurrection of the dead; and to them mercy never comes.? (Revelation of Paul, ?Apocrypha Of The New Testament?, Translated By Alexander Walker, Esq., One Of Her Majesty?s Inspectors Of Schools For Scotland, emphasis added)
Summary
The concepts of Hell and the Devil ? vaguely formed in the Old Testament ? would solidify in the inter-Testamental period in the writings of the Apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of the New Testament, those concepts would become an integral part of Christian theology, which describes a final victory by Christ over Satan and his minions. And after that final victory, a final judgment will eternally consign Satan and his followers to Hell.http//www.sundayschoolcourses.com/helldevil/helldevilweb.htm#_Toc79054683
What I don't understand is that many of your views are not researched and you are starting debates with people here including myself who are not knowledgeable about the previous scriptures. We here have an understanding of the Koran that Sunnis don't have. Its only a carefully conscious reading of the previous scriptures by a dissenting mind can answer some of your questions. Just like many of us here are. Many of us like myself found themselves having to re-read the Koran this time more carefully and more subtle. We need the same for the previous scriptures. many sites I frequented are sectarian and biased and is not reliable because its author is a Babptist or Catholic or Judaic. Imagine we ask a Sunni what does the Koran say about Abrogation.
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Peace Bigmo,
Thanks for the reply.
Summary
The concepts of Hell and the Devil vaguely formed in the Old Testament would solidify in the inter-Testamental period in the writings of the Apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of the New Testament, those concepts would become an integral part of Christian theology, which describes a final victory by Christ over Satan and his minions. And after that final victory, a final judgment will eternally consign Satan and his followers to Hell.So its official. Post-babylonian Judaism influenced the DSS sect which is confirmed in the Quran. If the Quran is true which I believe it is so there must be a tradition before Zoroastrianism and Babylon that deals with the afterlife. Could it be Millat Ibrahim? Could it be that the scriptures of Abraham influenced Zoroastrianism. Could Islam be a very ancient Abrahamic tradition and the Quran was there to revive and purify it and ammend it? Is that why the Quran talks as if its target audience know that tradition? Is that why Moses and Jethro went to pilgrimages before the Exodus!? Is that why Moses was ordered to hold to the salat before he was even given the commandments? We will end this topic here and discuss this in a new thread.
Peace,
Rami.
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Peace Bigmo,
Thanks for the reply.
Summary
The concepts of Hell and the Devil ? vaguely formed in the Old Testament ? would solidify in the inter-Testamental period in the writings of the Apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of the New Testament, those concepts would become an integral part of Christian theology, which describes a final victory by Christ over Satan and his minions. And after that final victory, a final judgment will eternally consign Satan and his followers to Hell.So its official. Post-babylonian Judaism influenced the DSS sect which is confirmed in the Quran. If the Quran is true which I believe it is so there must be a tradition before Zoroastrianism and Babylon that deals with the afterlife. Could it be Millat Ibrahim? Could it be that the scriptures of Abraham influenced Zoroastrianism. Could Islam be a very ancient Abrahamic tradition and the Quran was there to revive and purify it and ammend it? Is that why the Quran talks as if its target audience know that tradition? Is that why Moses and Jethro went to pilgrimages before the Exodus!? Is that why Moses was ordered to hold to the salat before he was even given the commandments? We will end this topic here and discuss this in a new thread.
Peace,
Rami.
I am not sure what you mean by tradition. The pagans knew Judaism and Christianity. As far as Millat Ibraheem I understand that as monotheism. The issue of Salat and other rituals like fasting and pilgrimage is an ongoing debate here. I personally see the Koran as a confirmation of previous scriptures and a final warning to mankind. Of course Koranist will differ as to what extent the Koran confirms the previous scriptures. Some will say it confirms it all, others would say most of it while others would say it confirms some of it.
The issue of Zoroastrian influences has been discussed here and some her have pointed out the similarities of salat according to Zoroastrian traditions and Sunni/Shia sectarianism. Other Muslims have also pointed that out even if they are not Koranist. Others here have also pointed out the similarities between Haj and Arab paganism. The issue of fasting is another issue debated here. The reason why its a big issue is because many of us come from a Sunni/Shia background where these things were standard rituals detailed and established in specific ways. We are always confronted with that whenever we see Muslims or watch TV. So thats why its an issue for many of us. Christians would hardly care about how to perform rituals. They are used to performing in a variety of ways or not performing them at all. Jews are like sectarian Islam grounded in rituals and traditions also set in sepcific ways and detailed but few actually perform them regularly. Plus they are not allowing themselves to be known. They are stuck into themselves. Only Islamic sects perform these rituals in a specific way and do so in heavy numbers. My family itself performs these rituals that way and i am always having to argue with Muslims about them. So its not surprising that these will be important issues for many Koranist. We must be carefull however not to speculate about its origins or its proper performing. Maybe its wise we accept that they can be performed in a variety of ways as long as the intention is good and the objective is sound and it does not contradict the Koran.
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Peace all,
I would like to share a video that proves that Jesus was not against the oral Jewish tradition but actually supported it. This puts the theory 'tradition of men' is the Talmud to the grave. Plus the Quran support to many stories and concepts in the Talmud which proves the oral Torah has some divinity.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OPkEusjZXg
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Peace all,
I would like to share a video that proves that Jesus was not against the oral Jewish tradition but actually supported it. This puts the theory 'tradition of men' is the Talmud to the grave. Plus the Quran support to many stories and concepts in the Talmud which proves the oral Torah has some divinity.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OPkEusjZXg
And some of the hadith may have validity. But its impossible to know which ones. There are references in the Talmud you can find in the Koran but yet there are condemnations in the Koran about some of the Talmudic teachings as the case with Jesus in Mark 7 1-9.
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And some of the hadith may have validity. But its impossible to know which ones. There are references in the Talmud you can find in the Koran but yet there are condemnations in the Koran about some of the Talmudic teachings as the case with Jesus in Mark 7 1-9.
The problem what if they are commandments from the Creator. We are cooked. D How can I differentiate?
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Peace liquid,
The Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife for a reason. It is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. It is started with Zoroastrianism entering into the oral Jewish traditions then the NT and the Quran. We can say that the Jewish tradition contain revelations from God because it seems when the Quran says we have wrote for the children of Israel so and so, you find it in the Talmud and not in the Hebrew bible!
Peace,
Rami
Why pick on the Zoroastrians? The Greeks and Romans believed in the afterlife. Plato dismissed almost the entirety of Pagan mythology but he still believed in the Immortality of the Soul. It's almost certain that the Jewish people would have been familiar with stories about the afterlife before they were conquered by the Babylonians and then Zoroastrian Persians.
But there is mention of Phoenicians influencing Judaism in the Bible -
http//phoenicia.org/jerusalem.html
In the 14th Century B.C., King Abdi Hepa, king of the Phoenician Canaanites, wrote to the Pharaoh Akhnaton and implored him to rid Jerusalem of new invaders. He described a group of people known as the "Habirus", as having already conquered Rushada, and advancing on Jerusalem. In the Bible, the story of Abraham mentions Melchizedek, the King of Salem (King of Jerusalem) and Priest of the Most High God (El Elion), who offered bread and wine to Abraham.
In 1000 B.C., King David, conquered Jerusalem, and established it as his capital. At the time of his conquest, the city was known as "Jebus" but he renamed it Jerusalem, once again.
Phoenician Canaanite High-Priestly "Apostolic Succession" of Yahweh's Temple
King David re-invested the Phoenician Canaanite High-Priest of Jerusalem to continue functioning in that position. Scholars have noticed two high priests are referred to in the account of Kind David's life Abiathar and Zadok. Abiathar is mentioned early in the narratives, even before David is (e.g. 1 Samuel 2220), but Zadok the Priest appears suddenly, and only after the conquest of Jerusalem. Zadok was the Canaanite High Priest of Jerusalem, whom David permitted to continue to serve. Further, Zadok would also have been King of Jerusalem (city-state like all other Phoenician city-states). It is known that both functions were played by the same person in these Phoenician city-states. Zadok is identified with Araunah, the person who sold David the threshing floor for the purpose of building the altar (2 Samuel 2418-25). The word Araunah is not a personal name; rather, it is a title meaning "the Lord." King David conformed to the tradition which Abraham started when he recognized the validity of the older Phoenician Canaanite High-Priest and King of Jerusalem, Melchizedek.The Sadducee's were descended from the Phoenician priestly caste. That's why they believed in God, but not in the afterlife. If there isn't any mention of the afterlife in the early books, it might well be because they intentionally excluded it.
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Double post.
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Why pick on the Zoroastrians? The Greeks and Romans believed in the afterlife. Plato dismissed almost the entirety of Pagan mythology but he still believed in the Immortality of the Soul. It's almost certain that the Jewish people would have been familiar with stories about the afterlife before they were conquered by the Babylonians and then Zoroastrian Persians.
But there is mention of Phoenicians influencing Judaism in the Bible -
http//phoenicia.org/jerusalem.html
The Sadducee's were descended from the Phoenician priestly caste. That's why they believed in God, but not in the afterlife. If there isn't any mention of the afterlife in the early books, it might well be because they intentionally excluded it.
I pick on the Zoroastrians because the Jewish people came into contact with them in Babylon and with Cyrus the King. Nice link, but it has many unsubstantiated claims. There is no evidence that there was a King Solomon or David or a temple in this place whatsoever. Jerusalem is devoid of any evidence of Hebrew civilization before the second temple. At least for now. Agreed on the origins of the Sadducees. Exclusion of eschatological concepts and rationalization of the Torah in Babylon is very possible. This is because I have never seen or heard of a pre-babylonian Pentateuch.
Peace,
Rami
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I pick on the Zoroastrians because the Jewish people came into contact with them in Babylon and with Cyrus the King. Nice link, but it has many unsubstantiated claims. There is no evidence that there was a King Solomon or David or a temple in this place whatsoever. Jerusalem is devoid of any evidence of Hebrew civilization before the second temple. At least for now. Agreed on the origins of the Sadducees. Exclusion of eschatological concepts and rationalization of the Torah in Babylon is very possible. This is because I have never seen or heard of a pre-babylonian Pentateuch.
Peace,
Rami
There is some Biblical video documentaries by the History channel like Banned from the Bible or who wrote the Bible etc. Maybe you should take a look at them. They are on the net and u can start with youtube or Guba to find them.
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There is some Biblical video documentaries by the History channel like Banned from the Bible or who wrote the Bible etc. Maybe you should take a look at them. They are on the net and u can start with youtube or Guba to find them.
Thanks. I saw those documentaries before. Very excting. There is one about the Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ0kMTMovg4
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mu3cKat5jEPeace.
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More proof that the Quran is confirming the Midrash. The Jews are noticing this. I am Geomystery who commented on the first video.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYdCkyoyss8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbc8f6nnnFE
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmToiQSffbAPeace,
Rami