Verses on Homosexuality
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I'd prefer to change the meaning of the word "homosexuality" to that of the scientific study by a swedish research group mentioned above.
When it comes to same sex behaviour (same sexism), I would seperate that behaviour from homosexuals.
Even heterosexual individuals (perhaps specifically females) who are highly promiscuous do fornicate with the same sex.
So let's remove the promiscuity label from homosexual people, and recognise that there is a difference.
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barmack,
Robert L. Spitzer's study's been criticized because his sample consisted of people who'd undergone "conversion therapy" and people from ministries so the sample was restricted and biased and therefore not very representative of most homosexuals. I think criticizing homosexuals for being homosexual (I'm not accusing you of doing that) is akin to racism; people can't help the way they're born. The god isn't despotic and unreasonable. The god is wise and merciful and homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone (except stupid homophobes who choose to be offended by homosexuality) so it goes against reason that the god would begrudge homosexuals their sexuality. Furthermore, Kinsey proposed that not everyone is completely heterosexual or completely homosexual so perhaps people who switch don't really switch. Perhaps they're just exhibiting a different side of their sexuality.
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What are the verses in the Quran that pertain to homosexuality. I've been noticing that many people that I know are becoming pro-gay or tolerant of gays. I think this stems from the fact that you will get a bashing for making fun of homosexuals or expressing your own opinion on how they should not marry. A few years back there was a newspaper article about an interview of a "gay muslim" who said that the Quran was perfectly okay with homosexuality. wow
Also, do you think that people are born with homosexuality and so it is a test from god or do you believe its a "choice."
Peace
It is so insiduous isn't it. Terms such as 'homosexual' and 'anal sex'. These terms equate sodomy and sodomites as the same as 'heterosexual' and 'vaginal sex'. So people become conidtioned to believing the sodomites are just the same as normal people.
If I was to go out eating with you and I pulled down my trousers and started shoving food up my backside and said I am just 'anally eating' whereas you are just 'orally eating' you would consider me mentally unstable and would say that this way of 'eating' serves no intrinsic biological function. What is the difference?
I resent the usage of terms like 'gay' and 'straight', 'anal sex' and 'vaginal sex'. The Quran does not use these terms, but instead used terms such as perversion. Is the story of Lut not an example enough? These people are peverted (despite programs like 'Will and Grace' making out they are harmless eccentrics). Their lifestyle should be opposed. However, the issue of the breakdown of society due to illicit sex is far more of an important issue.
Roshan
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Peace Roshan,
It is so insiduous isn't it. Terms such as 'homosexual' and 'anal sex'. These terms equate sodomy and sodomites as the same as 'heterosexual' and 'vaginal sex'. So people become conidtioned to believing the sodomites are just the same as normal people.
I don't think it's insidious.
If I was to go out eating with you and I pulled down my trousers and started shoving food up my backside and said I am just 'anally eating' whereas you are just 'orally eating' you would consider me mentally unstable and would say that this way of 'eating' serves no intrinsic biological function. What is the difference?
Plenty. No one really eats with their rear, but it's a fact that some people enjoy anal and oral sex. The fact that anal and oral sex don't serve the purpose of procreation doesn't make them wrong. To say they're wrong because their "unnatural" (which is nonsense anyway) is an appeal to nature logical fallacy.
I resent the usage of terms like 'gay' and 'straight', 'anal sex' and 'vaginal sex'. The Quran does not use these terms, but instead used terms such as perversion.
What is your evidence that the quran (great reading) calls homosexuality and anal sex fahisha?
Is the story of Lut not an example enough?
It isn't an example of the god's supposed hatred for homosexuals in my humble opinion.
These people are peverted (despite programs like 'Will and Grace' making out they are harmless eccentrics).
Why're they perverted?
Their lifestyle should be opposed.
What harm does their lifestyle cause you?
However, the issue of the breakdown of society due to illicit sex is far more of an important issue.
Roshan
I think illicit sex is a complete non-issue compared to self-righteousness, invasiveness and sanctimoniousness. I think muslims should tackle those problems before fretting over what people do in the privacy of their homes.
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The Qu'ran and Homosexuality
Richard Burton suggests the following Qu'ranic verses as relevant to homosexuality
The texts are from the Qu'ran edition at Virginia Tech's etext collection.
SURA IV 19-21
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But whoso rebels against God and His Apostle, and transgresses His bounds, He will make him enter into fire, and dwell therein for aye; and for him is shameful woe.
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Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.
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And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.
SURA VII 78-84
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Then the earthquake took them, and in the morning they lay prone in their dwellings;
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and he turned away from them and said, 'O my people! I did preach to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice; but ye love not sincere advisers.'
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And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in?
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verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.'
82.But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.'
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But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered;
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and we rained down upon them a rain;- see then how was the end of the sinners!
SURA XI 77-84
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And when our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved for them; but his arm was straitened for them, and he said, 'This is a troublesome day!'
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And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'
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They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'
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He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'
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(The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee; then travel with thy people in the darkness of the night, and let none of you look round except thy wife verily, there shall befall her what befalls them. Verily, their appointment is for the morning! and is not the morning nigh?'
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And when our bidding came, we made their high parts their low parts. And we rained down upon them stones and baked clay one after another,
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marked, from thy Lord, and these are not so far from the unjust!
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And unto Midian (we sent) their brother Sho'haib. He said, 'O my people! serve God; ye have no god but Him, and give not short measure and weight. Verily, 'I see you well off; but, verily, I fear for you the torments of an encompassing day.
SURA XXVI 160-174
- The people of Lot called the apostles liars;
161 when their brother Lot said to them, 'Do ye not fear?
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verily, I am to you a faithful apostle;
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then fear God and obey me.
164 I do not ask you for it any hire; my hire is only with the Lord of the worlds.
165 Do ye approach males of all the world
166 and leave what God your Lord has created for you of your wives? nay, but ye are people who transgress!'
167 They said, 'Surely, if thou dost not desist, O Lot! thou shalt be of those who are expelled!'
168 Said he, 'Verily, I am of those who hate your deed;
169 my Lord! save me and my people from what they do.'
170 And we saved him and his people all together,
171 except an old woman amongst those who lingered.
172 Then we destroyed the others;
173 and we rained down upon them a rain; and evil was the rain of those who were warned.
174 Verily, in that is a sign; but most of them will never be believers.
175 And, verily, thy Lord He is mighty, merciful, compassionate.
SURA XXIX 28-35
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And (remmber) Lot when he said to his people, 'Verily, ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in!
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What! do ye approach men? (or Do you commit sexual acts with men?) and stop folks on the highway? And approach in your assembly sin?' but the answer of his people was only to say, 'Bring us God's torment, if thou art of those who speak the truth!'
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Said he, 'My Lord! help me against a people who do evil!'
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And when our messengers came to Abraham with the glad tidings, they said, 'We are about to destroy the people of this city. Verily, the people thereof are wrong-doers.'
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Said he, 'Verily, in it is Lot; they said, 'We know best who is therein; we shall of a surety save him and his people, except his wife, who is of those who linger.'
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And when our messengers came to Lot, he was vexed for them, and his arm was straitened for them; and they said, 'Fear not, neither grieve; we are about to save thee and thy people, except thy wife, who is of those who linger.
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Verily, we are about to send down upon the people of this city a horror from heaven, for that they have sinned;
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and we have left therefrom a manifest sign unto a people who have sense.'
ON THE OTHER HAND
Although the Qu'ran does not have verse explicitly in favor of homosexuality, it does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven.
SURA LII24
"And there shall wait on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
http//www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.html
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Salaam,
Thanks to the people who posted the verses on homosexuality. The position is very clear in the quran but, unfortunately, those who read it without a clear mind and without good intention will never understand the guidance.
The answer to the question 'are people born gay?' is a very silly question indeed!
It is similar to asking 'are people born liking apples?'
I hope you understand the similarity there; if not, let me try and explain..........
I hope we are all talking about 'gay' in the sense of sexually attracted to the same sex........
If so, then this is a sexual desire, some say that these people were born with it.... is that so?
In the world today, there are 'straight' males who are only sexually attracted to black females. And some males who are only sexually attracted to white females, and would never be able to sleep/date/marry a balck female..... this is due to their sexual desires..... There are also western females who are sexually attracted to Arab males. Are they born with this?
These sexual desires depend on the external influence on the individual.
Suppose a young child goes to watch a film at the cinema with his friends..... and the moment everyone had been waiting for finally comes revealing a stunning latino female on the sunset..... cheers and whistles..... the child is programmed to understand that this image is something special. It sticks in his brain and he imagines himself with the female.... and what if he had a simliar girl as a girlfriend, he would be popular, happy, and the luckiest person in the world...
All of this, slowly forms his sexual desire...... was he born this way? (what if it was a white female on the screen)
A young female would see this image and imagine herself in the same position. To be someone else.... the poor girl is young, overweight, and bullied by friends. She wants to escape, she finds comfort in imagining herself as the latino girl on the screen. And it slowly starts from there. The young girl's hate of herself, leads her to wish/imagine/dream she was someone else. And her sexual desire is slowly built upon this.... eventually she becomes a lesbian........... was she born this way?
Now, this hate we are talking about........ not wanting to be oneself......... develops in someone due to many different circumstances....
Child abuse,
Parents Divorce
Peer pressure
Tv programming (what is popular and what is not)
and many others..............
All these sexual desires can change, again depending on the external influences....
If a young homosexual child is sexually abused and raped by an older male, his (young child) tendencies and desires quickly change.
Unfortunately, in the real world, it works the other way...... an old male abuses a young child, the young child wishes he were some other boy, and he ends up gay.If a young kid's favourite food is fish..... and one day he nearly chokes on a fish bone. What happens? He totally goes off fish.
I hope I made this clear.
Everyone is born with a clear mind eager to learn and develop depending on the social conditions it is put in.
A child born in Africa, into a poor family, will have different characteristics, goals, manners, happiness, sadness and comfort to a child born into a wealthy family who spoil him constantly.
The former will have the day of his life if he can find a clean glass of water to share with his family, and the latter will have the worst day of his life if he does not get the 50 games he was promised instead of the 30 along with the playstation 3, new clothes, and scooter.
Were the 2 children like this the moment they were born?
No, it was the external influences and social conditions that brought the differences.
So again I ask....
The answer to the question 'are people born gay?' is a very silly question indeed!
Isn't it similar to asking 'are people born liking apples?'
Regards
Ramzi
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Peace Ramzi,
With all respect, but it is clear you have no knowledge at all when it comes to the relation between hormonal distribution during pregnancy and its relationship to later sexuality. You just speculate and come with this very simplist explanation, and very wrong, of a very complex development in human psyche. Plus you complete leave out the tons of contradictions your understanding creates where homosexuality arises in a culture where it is completely condemned and not present in the TV or movie culture.
Please do not come with these childish explanations for such an important human rights issue, it really dissapoints me.
There are many males who during the last part of the pregnancy had more female then male hormones which created a female sexual part of the brain instead of male as the rest of the body had development into. These guys are born gay because the brain part that controls sexuality was developed into a female version, and thus they can only project their sexuality on men. This also counts for lesbians who developed a female body, but in the last stage of pregnancy developed a male sexual brain.
This is just one, although the major one, of many factors that makes someone gay. The examples you mention, distortion through culture or abuse, doesn't explain even 10% of all homosexuals.
This is reality, now we must try to understand reality and how it interacts with the Qur'an.
Peace
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Peace Ramzi,
Thanks to the people who posted the verses on homosexuality. The position is very clear in the quran but, unfortunately, those who read it without a clear mind and without good intention will never understand the guidance.
The answer to the question 'are people born gay?' is a very silly question indeed!
So we should accept the prevalent opinion that the great reading condemns homosexuality unquestioningly? Hasn't such an attitude always been detrimental to muslims?
It is similar to asking 'are people born liking apples?'
I hope you understand the similarity there; if not, let me try and explain..........
I hope we are all talking about 'gay' in the sense of sexually attracted to the same sex........
If so, then this is a sexual desire, some say that these people were born with it.... is that so?
In the world today, there are 'straight' males who are only sexually attracted to black females. And some males who are only sexually attracted to white females, and would never be able to sleep/date/marry a balck female..... this is due to their sexual desires..... There are also western females who are sexually attracted to Arab males. Are they born with this?
These sexual desires depend on the external influence on the individual.
Yes, but Black, White and Arab women are all women. The latest science proves that your analogy can't be applied to homosexuality because a person's sexuality is determined a great deal during prenatal development and perhaps genes too play a factor in determining a person's sexuality. Gay men share a gene with "ultra fertile women" that scientists speculate might contribute to homosexuality.
All these sexual desires can change, again depending on the external influences....
Really? Why don't you link us to an article on a study that produced credible results?
If a young homosexual child is sexually abused and raped by an older male, his (young child) tendencies and desires quickly change.
Unfortunately, in the real world, it works the other way...... an old male abuses a young child, the young child wishes he were some other boy, and he ends up gay.This is a very popular "theory", but I've never read anything that supports such an idea. What about all the gay men who weren't abused as children?
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So we should accept the prevalent opinion that the great reading condemns homosexuality unquestioningly? Hasn't such an attitude always been detrimental to muslims?
Salaam Supernaut,
What about when the great reading condemns deliberate killing unquestioningly (4-93)? Should we accept it, or find genetic/scientific reasons to why some people have to kill? )
Regards
Ramzi
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It is so insidious isn't it. Terms such as 'homosexual' and 'anal sex'. These terms equate sodomy and sodomites as the same as 'heterosexual' and 'vaginal sex'. So people become conditioned to believing the sodomites are just the same as normal people.
If I was to go out eating with you and I pulled down my trousers and started shoving food up my backside and said I am just 'anally eating' whereas you are just 'orally eating' you would consider me mentally unstable and would say that this way of 'eating' serves no intrinsic biological function. What is the difference?
I agree with you on this, "anal sex" is an oxymoron. Same with "oral sex". Oral masturbation would be a more accurate term.
Pope Ben is right to say how the abuse of human sexuality is comparable to the destruction of the world's environment, though he can hardly present himself as a defender of heterosexuality when he demands priests and nuns remain celebrate for life.
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Salaam Arnold,
Thanks for the reply...
Please do not come with these childish explanations for such an important human rights issue, it really dissapoints me.
Such an important human rights issue? It has become a human rights issue because homosexuality is seen as acceptable.
Can we say that the whole thing be split into 3 stages
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the development of same sex attractions
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the growing/development of these feelings
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the acting upon them
Now I hope you agree with me that the first stage can occur to anyone, anywhere in the world. Some are more prone to the development of same sex attracions, be it their feminine nature (for males) or masculine nature (for females), or the causes you mentioned during pregnancy. There are other examples like, death of a parent, parents divorce at a young age, having a twin, bullying at school, peer pressure, being in an all girls school, all boys school, obesity, medical illness, disability, and many others.
So, natural causes (if these are really true) and certain social/environmental conditions/influences can be the causes of stage 1.
It's the second set of social influences that bring about stages 2 and 3. And these are the ones I am talking about.
Things such as, Gay pride, gay clubbing, gay tv, and gay rights for civil partnership and adoption. Homosexuality being seen as normal, encouraged.This second set of social influences help develop same sex attractions in what we like to term 'confused people'. And then cause them to act upon these feelings.
Now, I am not contradicting myself by saying this because what makes a person gay is stage 3 and not stage 1 by itself. Therfore, I repeat no one is born gay.
Do we call someone a killer if he/she wishes to kill someone but doesnt do it? Is someone a paedophile if he/she is sexually aroused by child pornography in their minds? Is someone a thief if he/she intends to steal but never steals?
Is someone gay if they have same sex feelings but never act upon those feelings?
You are right in that there are cases of homosexuality in cultures that completely condemn it. Middle East for example. But how many are there? Do you agree that their numbers are significantly less than the cases of homosexuality in the west (where it is not condemned at all).
The earlier a child is taught that these same-sex feelings are wrong and must be controlled, the better. But if the child is brought up in a society where it is acceptable, fun, encouraged, then it becomes difficult to supress these feelings and control them.
A person is NEVER born gay. Some are more prone to become gay (different reasons) but ultimately, it depends on the upbringing that determines whether or not that person becomes homosexual.
This is just one, although the major one, of many factors that makes someone gay. The examples you mention, distortion through culture or abuse, doesn't explain even 10% of all homosexuals.
This is reality, now we must try to understand reality and how it interacts with the Qur'an.
Peace
I respcet your comments but I disagree with this. A very strange statement from you I believe. Shouldn't it be the other way round?
The quran is the reality that we use as guidance, If it condemns homosexuality then we should follow it.
Are you saying that if we humans prove that a person can be born gay that we adapt our interpretation of the guidance we have in the Qur'an to include this new reality?
Yes, but think about it.... will our interpretation of the Qur'an's view on homosexuality change with this new reality?
I think not. The Qur'an's view on this is pretty clear.
Please look at this example below carefully.
I ask you about a severly mentally handicapped person.
Question 1 Do we allow him to steal, walk around the streets naked?
No. We do all that we can to prevent this.
Question 2 Is this person accountable for his/her actions if he/she did infact kill someone?
Well, it is up to Allah to decide, but my opinion is no.
If a person is really born a homosexual,
Question 2) is he/she accountable for acting upon these feelings?
Only God knows.
Now question 1) ..... do we allow these homosexuals rights like civil partnership? adoption? Show their lifestyle to the world?
No, we do not, regardless of whether they are born with it or not.
My opinion is that, if people are born with homosexuality then it is a handicap. I still believe that no one is born gay however, despite scientific attempts to prove it.
Back to your statement about reality and Qur'an,,,,,,
If 'people born gay' is a reality, then the Qur'an already includes this reality. And God already knows that people can be born gay, even if it takes us to year 2050 to prove it. The Qur'an does not include any exceptions to its view on homosexuality. So this includes your reality about people born gay.
Regards
Ramzi
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ON THE OTHER HAND
Although the Qu'ran does not have verse explicitly in favor of homosexuality, it does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven.
SURA LII24
"And there shall wait on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
http//www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.html
You'll need to refer to the arabic, as another translation it has that "wiladan" as something like "immortal youths". Perhaps the pervert is reading too much into the verse, as would one sodomize their children?
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Peace Ramzi,
As this discussion was already held in detail in the original earlier thread of a few months ago, I ask you to first read my reply there in detail because your statement that the Qur'an doesn't take exceptions is an exclusive statement that completely neglects all the verses involved. The Qur'an first of all attacks them because the men were married, but they rather wanted to live in lust with other men. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE all of these men were attracted to other men, something more is happening here that excludes natural homosexuality.
Second, again your statement "we can teach the kids from a young age those feelings are wrong" shows you have no experience at all with reality. I can already say that 80% of all gay persons, this has been said to them all their life. But this doesn't make them less gay since their brain is the opposite of their body! They are BORN gay. Please stop these childish escapegoats by trying to come up with these simplistic explanations that have no bearing on reality at all. They are born gay because their brain is the opposite of their body, this is factual observable science. Not the conjecture which you use. The depressions and suicides among gay people because they must deny their real identity is an everyday occurence.
So this is something the Qur'an doesn't mean for us to do, to deny natural born people their own identity. There is something more going on in those verses, and if you read the previous threads, you will see the Arabic has more details then the superflious reading of a translation.
I am not gay myself, but part of my psychology and gender studies I have interviewed dozens and dozens of gay people, many of which are also my friends. So I talk from experience, not conjecture.
Yes, the Qur'an must interact with reality when it is clear something is natural while we always thought it was unnatural. Anthropology studies have shown war and killing is unnatural, and it was only done when to do justice. Male and female were completely equal among the early humans and there were no tribe leaders, since there were no real tribes, but groups that moved from one place to the other and worked peacefully with other roaming groups.
All of these facts clearly interact with the Qur'an. The Qur'an can only work if we study nature and history and try to see if we approach the Qur'an correctly, this is what the Qur'an tells us constantly to do.
The Qur'an condemns wars and killing and unequality among the genders and the unequal distribution of wealth and resources. Why? Because these are the matters which will make Mankind survive as a species and will make us succesful. This is why certain stability is required in society, thus children must have stable parents for example. This is why fornication is condemned and divorce has strict rules. Homosexuality is only naturally present among 5-8% of all worldpopulation. Most of them are monogamous like anyone else. Their monogamous relationship, and thus not the orgy living of Sodom, can do no harm at all to society and they can contribute as much as anyone else.
The people of Sodom were married with wives, were raiding the traderoutes and treated any outsides as enemies and wanted to rape them (guests of Lot for example) , all of these created their destruction. We know Bab-a-Drah. which is most likely Sodom, was raided itself by war and all of its population was killed. We are talking 4000BC, Bab-a-drah was the largest city in that area. The people surrounding it did not live in cities or towns but were nomads. So for these nomads to unite and attack Sodom, they must have had a very good reason. Because the Sodomers were raiders and looters. It is interesting that the city was burned and many people were buried in their own houses when they collapsed. The houses were built from baked clay, (sijjil).
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The story of Lot is also about aggressive homosexual rape. It says
SURA XXIX-29. What! do ye approach men?, and stop folks on the highway?
SURA XI-79-81. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'
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He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'
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(The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee;
Its not the same as concentual homosexual activity.
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exactly.