The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands
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At least,pagans revered women and made them goddesses! this is not paganism..this is unjustifiable type of arrogance and cheap submissiveness on part of women taking place in most lands inhabited by the Arabs..the same land that raised altars and temples for Ishtar and Asherah...
Isnt it funny that the former worshipers of Ishtar,the goddess of fertility,now cut off women ssexual organs in order to stifle their sexual desires?make up laws for them to cover themselves up from head to feet,and confine them in their homes,segregating them from men in education,work and worshiping places?and above all that,telling them they`re bound to hell because they have weak minds and cannot be pure enough to be as religious as men?
it is the cult of arrogance and ignorance..and certainly not paganism..yes yeah
http//india30.tripod.com/duties.htm
http//sagogrynet.bloggagratis.se/2007/12/03/386051-the-duties-of-the-true-hindu-women/ -
Did any body hear about being the Captain (of the ship)? or the term, CEO? YES we must listen and discuss but it is the husband who is been appointed as the ONE , and HIS FINAL decision must be obeyed, if she is the smart one out of the two, He will soon realise his mistakes and would learn to pay heed to her suggestions and would start taking correct decisions accordingly. Even if she is the bread winner He stays as the CAPTAIN.
Siki
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Did any body hear about being the Captain (of the ship)? or the term, CEO? YES we must listen and discuss but it is the husband who is been appointed as the ONE , and HIS FINAL decision must be obeyed, if she is the smart one out of the two, He will soon realise his mistakes and would learn to pay heed to her suggestions and would start taking correct decisions accordingly. Even if she is the bread winner He stays as the CAPTAIN.
Siki
Your analogy is valid only on ships where the Captain is chosen because he has the longest beard.
When setting a parable, go with it to the end. What I am reading is a ship has a captain who must be obeyed, therefore the captain of the house is the husband. -
Is there not a single Muslim who truly understands verse 434? Truth is only found in cleaving to Quran!
(434) Men are the maintainers (qawwam) of women because Allah has made some of them excel the others and because they spend of their wealth. Hence the good women are obedient (qanitat), guarding the unseen which Allah has guarded. And those of them that you fear might rebel (nushuz), admonish them, and abandon them in their beds and beat (adriboo) them. Should they obey you, do not seek a way of harming them, for Allah is Sublime and Great!
In the mosque, at hutbas and discussion circles, we have heard tafsir (interpretation) of this verse over and over again. That men and women were created to different roles. That women should be provided for by their husbands, and that the verse in fact prescribes a greater responsibility and hardship on the men. That the path of the woman is obedience to her husband, because obedience is the only way a woman can be happy. And that the ?admonishment? of the wife is encouraged by God, in order to steer the woman to the right path, as if women are some kind of animal to be trained.
Do you question this verse? Question the tafsir. Question the tafsir a thousand times. The verse can be recited and memorized. But it is through constant engagement with prophecy that we may be guided to the light. And engagement only comes through questioning.
The question of this tafsir must be answered, for there to be a religion of Islam. Most of the people recite the Quran but understand little. In this age of exploration, Islam will not survive unless understanding is raised for the ummah. The people called Sufis possess the understanding, but it is kept secret. But in this age of exploration, if the secrets are kept from the wider people, Islam as a religion will not survive. The people are thirsty from their recitation, their throats are draw and they are now in dire need of water. But water will not be given unless the people ask so ask your questions! Ask and ask again, to save the ummah from its peril!
Let us now engage with this verse and see what deeper meaning is buried there for our benefit.
Men are the maintainers (qawwam) of women because Allah has made some of them excel the others and because they spend of their wealth. Hence the good women are obedient (qanitat), guarding the unseen which Allah has guarded. And those of them that you fear might rebel (nushuz), admonish them, and abandon them in their beds and beat (adriboo) them. Should they obey you, do not seek a way of harming them, for Allah is Sublime and Great! (Verse 434)
Men are the qawwam ? those who take care of and and provide for ? the women. The good women guard the unseen which Allah has guarded. The women to fear are those who create nushuz ? discord, hostility, dissonance. If you fear such women, leave them in their beds and beat, forsake or avoid them (adriboo).
Indeed! Because the secret of the Quran is identical to the secret of the Torah, understood by the Comrades of the Kabbalah.?Men? and ?women?, ?husband? and ?wife? mean something much more than the physical understanding we have.
Ancient knowledge has been remembered in the 20th century we each havemasculine and feminine aspects. Some call these aspects the anima and animus. But Torah and Quran teach the masculine and feminine aspects are more complex they are multiple eminations of God?s Names. The names God breathed into our bodies because we are made in the image of God. We all are have female and male aspects, in different balance. So these verses address humanity, physically male and female.
If this seems implausible, then it is so only due to the groups who so fiercely defend the literal interpretation. But this book is a holy book! It?s not an agony aunt column in the local newspaper! The folly oftheir tafsir verges on blasphemy, but they don?t understand.
In Kabbalah, the feminine name of God that we can realise within is called Shekhinah (Sakina in Arabic). The concept is complex, but is something close to the notion of the unconscious in psychoanalysis the field of language from whence all types of signification may play. But for the sake of our discussion, a simple way of thinking of it is that the Shekhinah is the source of all human creativity. If you paint a picture, then you engage with Shekhinah in a way. If you do an equation, similarly. But essentially, prayer and worship are acts of creativity, where we create an image to ourselves of God (something ultimately unimaginable). As we see with the acts of violence and hatred produced by people in the name of religion, clearly this creative name that has been breathed into us can be corrupted, if our creativity is not realised in a righteous fashion.
But if we are seeking God, then it is the feminine name of creativity, of Shekhinah, that we must realise within ourselves, the first gate that must be entered, in order to ascend.
So the feminine name comes first for the spiritual traveller. The Kabbalists call Shekhinah the ?poor girl?, because this emination is our creative spirit, and, on its own, is not capable of generating any light from God. Instead, it?captures? light from the higher name of God, Ti?fret, the source of prophecy. The words of the Quran itself (and the other holy books) derive from this name, that was realised to its fullest potential in men like Moses and Muhammed. Ordinary folk such as us cannot realise this name, but, through worship as creativity, we may find Shekhinah and, through worship as righteously guided creativity, our Shekhinah may be ?married? to Ti?fret, to prophecy.
In this sense, our feminine aspect is ?maintained? by the light of our masculine aspect. If this is done, then we may move closer to God. In this sense, the masculine aspect of our psyche are commanded to ?spend out of their property?.
The Shekhinah realised within us is righteous if it is obedient in ?marriage? to prophecy. That is, our creativities are ?good women?, ?obedient? and, importantly, ?guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded?. God and the higher spiritual realms are the unseen, but the feminine creativity within us can guard these realms. Guarding here means, protecting against the darkness that can fill our creative spirit if we do not guard this feminine aspect of ourselves, we can create evil in the name of religion, as we see happening again and again.
The last part of the first then is an instruction and warning about how to treat ourselves, how to treat the creative emanation placed within us. ?Those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek.? If you fear your creativity will leave you and move to the darkness, try to make it righteous again, into the light. If that doesn?t work, and your prayers move you to darkness still ? or if you encounter a sect that exchanges love for hatred ? or enter a mosque where death is preached instead of love ? then creativity has been corrupted. If this happens, then beat the unrighteous creativity into submission stop praying and walk away from that mosque. God willing, something better might come your way.
Mythopoetically, if our creative aspect turns unrighteous, becomes a creativity-in-discord, if the song we sing turns from a love song to disharmony, then our feminine aspect turns from Shekhinah into Lilith. Potiphar's wife, who tried to seduce Joseph to her bed, was Lilith. He was righteous and followed the path set down by this verse, because he recognized this potential seduction within himself and, instead of being tempted to join with it, left it at its bed and ran away, forsaking and avoid it (adriboo).
To those who question this verse, to those who question the tafsir of this verse the verse is placed there, especially for you! You indeed have been doubting the dark creative spirits of others who read this verse, take its surface meaning, and perhaps justify it to do evil (such as beating other humans). And you are doing (God willing) what the later part of the verse instructs walking away from that interpretation.
In your journey, always remember the first part of the verse the masculine light of prophecy will provide for our feminine aspect of creativity, and guide us to a righteous worship. So worship with us in this.
May the wife within be wed happily to the husband within, that we might find balance, harmony not discord, righteousness not adultery, and perhaps ascend higher in our journey!
FOR MORE OF THE TAILOR'S DOCTRINE, SEE
http//community.beliefnet.com/profile/3dd92c69ac3187b92fdda7f9763c4119
AND
http//thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/ -
Your analogy is valid only on ships where the Captain is chosen because he has the longest beard.
When setting a parable, go with it to the end. What I am reading is a ship has a captain who must be obeyed, therefore the captain of the house is the husband.Negative, my analogy is valid for any/every organization/set up/unit whenever there is more than one person. For the collective good some body has to be a captain/leader, and if there is none/or eveyone, (in a group) doom/chaos is inevitable.
siki
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Negative, my analogy is valid for any/every organization/set up/unit whenever there is more than one person. For the collective good some body has to be a captain/leader, and if there is none/or eveyone, (in a group) doom/chaos is inevitable.
siki
You're completely missing the point. Please re-read my post and try to understad it. If you can't understand what I am saying, I will then explain to you.
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You're completely missing the point. Please re-read my post and try to understand it. If you can't understand what I am saying, I will then explain to you.
I completely understand you , I thought you would understand what i have not said/explained, but you did not , OK i will,
Do you agree that there has to be someone in charge?
If yes , then who for the house?
Do you think God would not address this important issue?
siki
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Peace.
I look around me,and see muslim couples manage themselves,without,no obedience from non.I see couples discuss,and come to a mutual agreement,without nobody have to obey the other.
I dont think a marrige is a ship,that are in need of one captain,there are two adults involved,and mutual agreements,must be the basic.Then there will be no chaos.To be a captain on a ship,you need education,so on a boat it is the person best fit to rule a ship,that is the captain.
Marrige in Islam,is a contract,with mutual benefits.
Every buisness beetween equals,is done with mutual agreement,why is that different,when a woman is involved?She has to be obedient?
No,it is the same old,same old,thinking that a man,is always better equipted,than women,in deeling with life and truth,even when the reality shows us different.Men that kill their wifes,and dont think they are few,79% of all women gets killed by a man that they are in relationship with,or has been.Very often,this men are used to obedience from their wifes,and when they dont,bam.And the men belong to every corner in this world,and with religion or not religion.
Muslim countries have choosen not to deal with their honory killings,that happen every day.Obedience is a key word here,in this sad storys,where men think that if a lady disobey,and by that deforme tha family honour,they can be killed.Jordan for example,have in their criminal laws,the reduced sentences,for husbands,brothers,fathers,that commit this kind of crimes,but most often cases do not go to court.Just forget obedience,and get your minds on mutual agreement.
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Peace.
I look around me,and see muslim couples manage themselves,without,no obedience from non.I see couples discuss,and come to a mutual agreement,without nobody have to obey the other.
I dont think a marrige is a ship,that are in need of one captain,there are two adults involved,and mutual agreements,must be the basic.Then there will be no chaos.To be a captain on a ship,you need education,so on a boat it is the person best fit to rule a ship,that is the captain.
Marrige in Islam,is a contract,with mutual benefits.
Every buisness beetween equals,is done with mutual agreement,why is that different,when a woman is involved?She has to be obedient?
No,it is the same old,same old,thinking that a man,is always better equipted,than women,in deeling with life and truth,even when the reality shows us different.Men that kill their wifes,and dont think they are few,79% of all women gets killed by a man that they are in relationship with,or has been.Very often,this men are used to obedience from their wifes,and when they dont,bam.And the men belong to every corner in this world,and with religion or not religion.
Muslim countries have choosen not to deal with their honory killings,that happen every day.Obedience is a key word here,in this sad storys,where men think that if a lady disobey,and by that deforme tha family honour,they can be killed.Jordan for example,have in their criminal laws,the reduced sentences,for husbands,brothers,fathers,that commit this kind of crimes,but most often cases do not go to court.Just forget obedience,and get your minds on mutual agreement.
bravo
Thanks for those words of wisdom, Marleya
Peace,
Hadi
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Did any body hear about being the Captain (of the ship)? or the term, CEO? YES we must listen and discuss but it is the husband who is been appointed as the ONE , and HIS FINAL decision must be obeyed, if she is the smart one out of the two, He will soon realise his mistakes and would learn to pay heed to her suggestions and would start taking correct decisions accordingly. Even if she is the bread winner He stays as the CAPTAIN.
Siki
Well,a ship needs a brain attentive to space and geometry,strategical thinking and awareness of the frame and the dimensions..
yes,males generally tend to pay more attention to the geometry of the world around them.. but science proves that some women have male brains and that some men tend to think more like women..
It`s the brain sex that identifies the way you tend to think..http//www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml
The leadership is for the fittest,it can be a man or a woman..the world is not static,it`s dynamic and flexible..
and each individual should be put where he fits in order to perform his role in life.. -
Negative, my analogy is valid for any/every organization/set up/unit whenever there is more than one person. For the collective good some body has to be a captain/leader, and if there is none/or eveyone, (in a group) doom/chaos is inevitable.
siki
Yes,aren
t there women who proved validity to head such bodies/organizations/even countries? there was wisdom, power and peace under some,as well as tyranny and bloodshed under others,just like men.. If we were progressive muslims,its because we respect the dynamic nature of the universe,its because our minds cant deal with dogma,and we decided were not sheep or mass production of some factory..we are individuals and each has a role to fulfill..and were here to encourage that... -
I completely understand you , I thought you would understand what i have not said/explained, but you did not , OK i will,
Do you agree that there has to be someone in charge?
If yes , then who for the house?
Do you think God would not address this important issue?
siki
You mention captains of a ship, which no one is arguing against, and then want to deduce from that a "therefore husband should obe beyed"?
What are the conditions of a captain? Is gender one of them? This is missing the point.
Each one of the couple has their expertise. I do not think you make all the decisions, and I know I did make many decisions. There's no question of obedience or no obedience. If there's a disagreement about an issue, I do not think the "gender" would be a good ground to solve it.
Back to the verse If it's a commandment that she should "obey" the husband, what's the point of having an arbitrator from each side? -
Peace.
I look around me,and see Muslim couples manage themselves,without,no obedience from non.I see couples discuss,and come to a mutual agreement,without nobody have to obey the other.
Mutual agreement is the key word and that is what i advocated in my first post, but let us say if there is a difference of opinion on a certain important issue, who gets to use the veto?
And what you are talking about is ideals, and i am afraid there is nothing like an ideal marriage, and even that so called ideal marriages have their less than ideal moments quite often.
I have never seen in my life any thing working/surviving with two CEOs/ captains, or leaders with equal rights , no matter how brilliant they are individually.
siki
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Yes,aren
t there women who proved validity to head such bodies/organizations/even countries? there was wisdom, power and peace under some,as well as tyranny and bloodshed under others,just like men.. If we were progressive Muslims,its because we respect the dynamic nature of the universe,its because our minds cant deal with dogma,and we decided were not sheep or mass production of some factory..we are individuals and each has a role to fulfill..and were here to encourage that...There is no denying about women's capabilities, there is a significant percentage who prove to be better than Men.
Some one definitely needs to be In Charge, for me i would not mind even if that has to be a less capable person no matter who it is, Husband or wife. Till the time either one has power to take that final decision, and the other one recognises and submits to it, (even if He/she thinks otherwise) The ship is doomed.
And i am afraid , God thought "Men to be more suitable for carrying out this difficult task"
siki
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You mention captains of a ship, which no one is arguing against, and then want to deduce from that a "therefore husband should obe beyed"?
What are the conditions of a captain? Is gender one of them? This is missing the point.
Each one of the couple has their expertise. I do not think you make all the decisions, and I know I did make many decisions. There's no question of obedience or no obedience. If there's a disagreement about an issue, I do not think the "gender" would be a good ground to solve it.
Back to the verse If it's a commandment that she should "obey" the husband, what's the point of having an arbitrary from each side?Yes , the successful couples do recognise each others strengths, and a rational husband would always give due respect to opinions of his wife , which over a period of time she proves to have strength in.
But what we are talking here is 99% cases which are less than perfect ,or that plenty of less than perfect situations.
Who takes that final decision? Or if both think that they are the perfect ones to lead, and hence their his/her decision must be implemented, what if that decision is very very important and no one wants to let go off it ?
siki
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The leadership is for the fittest,it can be a man or a woman
I agree, but who decides that who is the fittest?
It is perfectly ok that someone less fit leads, than the case " that they both fight over captaincy and sink the ship"
the world is not static,it`s dynamic and flexible..
and each individual should be put where he fits in order to perform his role in life..Yes, that is why creator took a decision and conveyed to us, because no one knows creation better than the creator himself.
siki
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Yes , the successful couples do recognise each others strengths, and a rational husband would always give due respect to opinions of his wife , which over a period of time she proves to have strength in.
But what we are talking here is 99% cases which are less than perfect ,or that plenty of less than perfect situations.
Who takes that final decision? Or if both think that they are the perfect ones to lead, and hence their his/her decision must be implemented, what if that decision is very very important and no one wants to let go off it ?
siki
Siki, you are taking a word in a specific situation in a complex verse and then applying it to a whole marital life. The verb (if they obey you) is only applicable to wives who are nashiz and only in the case of nushuz (arrogance). Even these wives are not sked to obey in situations other than that specifically indicated. Those 99% imperfect situations (doe not mean I agree with) Are they all cases of wives who are arrogant because they are the bread winners?
Even in such situation, the final decision is in the hands of arbitrators, according to the very verse.
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There is no denying about women's capabilities, there is a significant percentage who prove to be better than Men.
Some one definitely needs to be In Charge, for me i would not mind even if that has to be a less capable person no matter who it is, Husband or wife. Till the time either one has power to take that final decision, and the other one recognises and submits to it, (even if He/she thinks otherwise) The ship is doomed.
And i am afraid , God thought "Men to be more suitable for carrying out this difficult task"
siki
Peace,Siki..
The truth is clear,when there`s a healthy debate going on between two mature persons,wisdom supersedes,not concepts of manhood or womanhood!except if there is an arrogant party who wants to force their own decision just to prove themselves powerful..
Men excel in some aspects of life and women excel in others,maturity states to respond to the best decision..and recognition of expertise..
There is no one absolute captain of the ship but a continuous exchange of roles.."The men are to support the women by what God has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. "
I see "support" here and not "the absolute right of decision making"..
women ,since the revelation time and until now are rarely supported by their husbands,their self confidence is always shaky because of the constant pressures they face from their societies to deprive them from the right of a fruitful contribution to their societies,they are not to inherit money,their education is not necessary,theyre not to work,theyre a source of evil,so confine them in their homes,and if they get out they must be fully covered,they are not to preach or utter a word in worshiping places,she`s not to understand,but to follow..
All those horrible pressures make women in need of support of their fellow men,especially their own spouses..
Besides,women endure times of incapability of going out winning bread,as in the times of pregnancy and giving birth and nurturing their children,countries now "support" those women by giving them enough time off work in order for women to give their full attention to their babies and to their own health..Many men show negligence to women during those critical times,even show immature and unhealthy childish feelings of jealousy when women give most of their care and attention to their new born baby..and start to ignore their responsibilities,and in many cases go out cheating on their wives,because their wives
shape change after giving birth,or they show lack of interest in sex..etc. I believe its a reminder to men to keep showing responsibility and support for women..instead of exploiting her if she`s a bread winner,or cheating on her if her shape changes after giving birth to their own babies..But that`s only my personal view on the issue..I see it an issue of responsibility and not the right of making decisions..cause when it comes to making decisions..one could excel the other in expertise or knowledge of a certain issue,and wisdom is to be adhered to,through good debate and true desire to seek solution..
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I agree, but who decides that who is the fittest?
Life decides.. working solutions decide..that
s better than adhering to manhoods absolute right of choice,even though its not a working solution..its decidable over the course of the changing events and problems or issues both have faced,they see for themselves who has the capability of making good decisions..It is perfectly ok that someone less fit leads, than the case " that they both fight over captaincy and sink the ship"
There
s no individual whos always forever less fit,men excel women in important issues,and women also excel men in no less important other issues..its the decision of wisdom,if debating parties are mature,they would recognize whats best for themselves..Yes, that is why creator took a decision and conveyed to us, because no one knows creation better than the creator himself.
The verse you`re talking about is about support and responsibility,"The men are to support the women by what God has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money.
The Arabic reading states"What God has bestowed some of them over some of the others"which implies a relative nature of the issue..Men excel women in physical power,which makes them protectors,that
s a fact..in the animal world,males fight over territories and females,the male who proves himself powerful inherits the land and the females included..in human world,the world is in an exceeding need of mental power in all aspects of life,including wars..when it comes to mental power,we saw that capability of strategical thinking and awareness of the geometry of the world which is the core of decision making,can differ according to brain sex,science has proved that there are women whose brains identity is closer to malesand males whose brain identity is closer to females`..
What we need is to accept the dynamic nature of life..and that we are companions in life,not competitors..
There are the rules and there are the exceptions..God is the best knowledgeable...
Peace,