Misquoting of the Qur'an
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Peace Zulu1, and welcome,
You've made a valid point - although I don't agree that any interpretation was misleading. There should be an explanation as to how the author arrived at the conclusion/interpretation of the ayah - especially on the home page. Perhaps a link to an article or thread.
Thanks for the observation.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam
I am a new member on this Forum and would like firstly to give salutations to all.
I have family and inlaw members from all different backgrounds which include Muslim, Christian, Jew, Reverts, Traditional Sunni, Shia, Scholars, Sect members and so forth. I do believe that I currently have a good grasp of my deen, but am constantly learning. I have visited the Free- Minds website and Forum on many occassions and do believe that the Qur'an is our first and last form of guidance and is complete.
However, I do have a problem which I think needs to be answered by Free-Minds (moderators or members please feel free to jump in). On more than one occassion I have seen people try to interperate ayats of the Qur'an in order to prove their point regarding Hadith believers, Sunni, Shia etc etc. To which I do not have a problem with as we all have a choice. Having visited the main page of this website I came across the following
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (1276), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...
However, if you read the following ayat 538 NOW AS FOR the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God for God is almighty, wise.
it quite clearly states the punishment for thieving.
Why are misleading ayats being quoted from Free-Minds in order to justify the authenticity of the movement? Surely the ayat concerning Joseph and his brother have nothing to do with the punishment for thieving.
The fact is even if it is 1 misquoted ayat or 100, the doubt has now arisen. I do have cousins who are specialists in Arabic Grammar and actually teach Arabic to Arabs in Riyadh that I can always plug in order to debate and agree to disagree. I do tend to agree with Fre-Minds somewhat, but I think it is unhealthy for the homepage to have such a mistake on one hand and criticise the mainstream on the other, when both are doing the same.
Any answers please.
Salaam Zulu
Please read this articae.Punishment for Theft in The Quran
What is the theft punishment in Quran? This article will show, God willing (Gw), that is to give the chance to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victim. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Then thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid. First, the article will explore the two classical understandings related to this issue and show their shortcomings. Then, it will conclude with the third and the closest to Quran?s spirit understanding just stated.
So far, two punishments for theft were proposed as an understanding of aya 538.
538, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall "eqta?u" (in Arabic) their "aydiyahuma" as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Wise."
Meaning of both Arabic words above will be given soon, Gw.
The first understanding says that 538 means to cut off the thief's hand. First, the Arabic "aydiyahuma" is the plural of "yad" (hand) used in dual form. Should we then cut off both hands of a thief?
Second, what will benefit the one who lost his/her stolen goods in case s/he would not recovered them? And what would happen if someone were accused mistakenly or maliciously of theft and his/her hands were cut off? What if someone does not have hands and uses only his brain to plan thefts for his/her accomplices? This is not a fiction; it happened.
The second understanding that was proposed for aya 538 is to only mark the thief's hand. This understanding runs against the same problems as the first one. First, we should then not only mark one hand for each thief but both hands. Second and besides the same above problems, we have a specific one to this case. With all esthetic surgery advances, someone could manage to steal millions and spend a few thousands to offer himself/herself an esthetic
Surgery to hide his/her hands? markings. Criminals nowadays do go thru
Facial surgery in order to hide from justice.
Furthermore, Ayat 1231 and 1250 are used to convey this meaning of marking the hands to 538. However, 1231 and 1250 do not use the exact wording as 538. They use the Arabic variation "qatta'a" of "qata'a" used in 538. Even though if someone agrees that both have the same meaning, the same word "qatta'a" is used in 533, 7124, 2071, 2649 as to mean cut off or amputate. Therefore why should someone use 1231 and 1250 to convey the meaning "to mark" and not 533, 7124, 2071, 2649 to convey the meaning "to cut off/amputate"?
The third meaning and the closest to Quran?s spirit is this. Give the chance to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victim. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Then thieves should work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid. This is exactly what is applied to thieves in some Muslim rural areas. Here you are three reasons why this understanding is the closest to Quran?s spirit.
First, the Arabic word "yad" (used in dual plural in 53 or hand is used in Quran in its literal and figurative meanings. For instance, 2712 uses it in its literal meaning while 564 uses it in its figurative one to refer to wealth and how to spend it. Another example for the figurative meaning is 3845. It uses
"yad" in plural form. It conveys the meaning of power and possession of resources.
3845, "Remember also our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were resourceful ("ulu al-aydee", and possessed vision/They possessed power and vision ."
"yad" is also used to infer someone's actions and doings (2195, 2210). It is used too to mean possession of a responsibility or a contract (2237).
Therefore, "eqta?u aydiyahuma" in the above aya 538 might mean to cut off from the thieves? resources and power.
Second, let's consider the case of murder in Quran which is a worse crime than stealing. There are two earthly punishments. 492 deals with a believer's accidental killing. Neither capital punishment nor jail are involved. 2178 deals with the second case when someone meant the killing. This aya gives the option of sparing the murderer's life. In both cases, there is ransom involved if possible. It is the case maybe because when someone is killed, a source of income is cut from their family and therefore should be compensated. In either case, punishment does not tall the cutting or marking of hands if it was the case in 538.
Last but not least, sura 12 gives us a good example about how to punish the theft.
1270, "When he provided them with their provisions, he placed the drinking cup in his brother's bag, then an announcer announced "The owners of this caravan are thieves."'
1271, "They said, as they came towards them, "What did you lose?"'
1272, "They said, "We lost the king's cup. Anyone who returns it will receive an extra camel-load; I personally guarantee this."'
1273, "They said, "By GOD, you know full well that we did not come here to commit evil, nor are we thieves."'
1274, "They said, "What is the punishment for the thief, if you are liars?"'
1275, "They said, "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty."'
1276, "He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable."
1277, "They said, "If he stole, so did a brother of his in the past." Joseph concealed his feelings in himself, and did not give them any clue. He said (to himself), "You are really bad. GOD is fully aware of your accusations."'
1278, "They said, "O you noble one, he has a father who is elderly; would you take one of us in his place? We see that you are a kind man."'
1279, "He said, "GOD forbid that we should take other than the one in whose possession we found our goods. Otherwise, we would be unjust."'
The way I understand the above ayat is this is God's law for theft in application. Joseph and his brothers were submitters and children of Jacob and Abraham's great great-children. They were applying God?s law then. It is very clear from the above ayat that they were not following the king?s law but rather God?s law.
First the presumed thieves were given the chance to come forward, acknowledge their wrongdoing, and then give back what they have stolen and they might even get a reward.
If they refuse to do so, they must be proven as thieves. Then, what was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Thieves should work to repay the fees involved in the whole process. They should also work to repay what was stolen in case they do not give it or the whole of it back.
These ayat give us also an example of someone who was set up for theft for a good reason of course. But, what would happen to someone who was set up maliciously and has to face marking or cutting of his or her both hands?
Had Joseph known that God's punishment for theft is marking or cutting hands (which his brothers would have apply), he would not scheme that way in order to keep his brother with him.
Someone would argue that was God's theft law for previous communities and we are not bound to it. Well, when God wants to change something, He specifies it (2187). Furthermore, Quran specifies when some laws do apply only for some communities (1611 and therefore we are not bound to apply them.
The cutting or marking hands as a punishment of thieves run into contradictions within Quran. However, meaning of "cutting hands" in 538 as cutting from the thieves? resources and power, the case of murder?s punishment in Quran, and the example of God?s law in application in 1270-79 are the three arguments, put forward in this article, to propose the third and closest to Quran?s spirit punishment for theft. It goes as follow. Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victim. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Then thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.
"..Our Lord, shower us with Your mercy, and bless our affairs with Your guidance." 1810
God bless you all,
Peace,
Brother Joe -
Dear Afridi220
Many thanks for your interpretation and your understanding of the ayat.
However, firstly, the ayat relating to Joseph and his brother is exactly what it states. It gives an account of what happened during that period. It is not a legal injunction and as we know, Joseph did not come for all mankind. It is the story of Joseph and his brothers etc. Therefore this cannot be the Islamic injunction for theft as stated on the homepage in order to convince Muslims of corruption in the Deen.
Thirdly, ayat 538 has been translated by the following according to their knowledge of Arabic to English and includes Muslims and Non Mulsims alike
al-Ma'idah 005038
538
Transliteration
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bima kasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun
Literal
And the male thief/robber and the female thief/robber, so cut off their (B)'s hands, a reward because (of) what they (B) gathered/acquired , severe exemplary punishment from God, and God (is) glorious/mighty ,wise/judicious .
Yusuf Ali
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime and Allah is Exalted in power.
Pickthal
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Arberry
And the thief, male and female cut off the hands of both, as a recompense for what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty, All-wise.
Shakir
And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Sarwar
Cut off the hands of a male or female thief as a punishment for their deed and a lesson for them from God. God is Majestic and All-wise.
Khalifa
The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Hilali/Khan
Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is AllPowerful, AllWise.
H/K/Saheeh
the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
Malik
Male or female, whoever is guilty of theft, cut off the hand (that was used in theft) of either of them as a punishment for their crime. This is exemplary punishment ordained by Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
QXP
(Theft is a crime that steals away the sense of security from a society). A habitual thief, male or female, must have their ability (to steal) cut off. This is the reward for their doings, and a deterrent from Allah. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
Maulana Ali
And (as for) the man and the woman addicted to theft, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Free Minds
The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
Qaribullah
As for the man or woman who is guilty of theft, recompense them by cutting off their hands for their crimes. That is the punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
George Sale
If a man or a woman steal, cut off their hands, in retribution for that which they have committed; this is an exemplary punishment appointed by God; and God is mighty and wise.
JM Rodwell
As to the thief, whether man or woman, cut ye off their hands in recompense for their doings. This is a penalty by way of warning from God himself. And God is Mighty, Wise.
Asad
NOW AS FOR the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God' for God is almighty, wise.
Link - http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/
Furthermore, if you look at the history of the Quranic translations from the 600's to the 2000's in all the major languages, they more or less state the same. The hands to be cut off. From English, Persian, Balochi, Dutch, Spanish to Hindi, Bosnian, Chinese French, German, Hebrew and many more languages. It all states the same.
So, unless you have an undisputed knowledge of Quranic Arabic which supercedes current and previous experts around the globe. I still stand by my comment that the paragraph on the Homepage to which I refered my initial post is a cause for concern, and cannot be used as an example by Free Minds in order to dispute mainstream Islam.
Peace
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However, firstly, the ayat relating to Joseph and his brother is exactly what it states. It gives an account of what happened during that period. It is not a legal injunction and as we know, Joseph did not come for all mankind. It is the story of Joseph and his brothers etc. Therefore this cannot be the Islamic injunction for theft as stated on the homepage in order to convince Muslims of corruption in the Deen.
Story in Al Quran, which is for mankind, so not sure what you're saying here.
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Peace,
Both Ahmed Ali and Shabbir Ahmed who have deep knowledge of the Arabic do not agree with the interpretation of cutting hands. Their translations refers to cutting off the resources/abilities to commit theft.
"Qata'a means to cut, but when used with different nouns it means different things idiomatically, such as to stop someone from speaking when used with lisan, toungue, or cut off the road when used with sabil, or become hopeless when used with rajul,man, etc. In 1231, for instance, qata'na aidihunna means they wounded their hands or stopped peeling fruit, not cut off their hand. Hense here, in 538, it could also mean to stop their hands from stealing by adopting deterrent means, for the next verse, 39, speaks of repentance and forgiveness whith overtones of rehabilitation, which would be lost if the hands were cut off completely or amputated. Similarly in v.33 tuqtta'a could mean to restrain them by putting fetters on one hand and one leg.
During the Ummayyad caliphate, the punishment for theft was flogging. "
--from Ahmed Ali's "Al Quran A contemporary Translation" -
Peace all --
However, firstly, the ayat relating to Joseph and his brother is exactly what it states. It gives an account of what happened during that period. It is not a legal injunction and as we know, Joseph did not come for all mankind. It is the story of Joseph and his brothers etc. Therefore this cannot be the Islamic injunction for theft as stated on the homepage in order to convince Muslims of corruption in the Deen.
Literal
And the male thief/robber and the female thief/robber, so cut off their (B)'s hands, a reward because (of) what they (B) gathered/acquired , severe exemplary punishment from God, and God (is) glorious/mighty ,wise/judicious .
12111
In their narration/information (stories there) had been an example/warning to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.
Command is definitely to ?cut off? their hands (all) so which hands?
279
295
2255
462
491
511
You, you those who believed, remember/mention God's blessing/goodness on you, when a nation started that they spread/extend their hands to you, so He prevented/stopped their hands from you, and fear and obey God, and on God so should the believers rely on/trust in.533
538
564
67
693
717
7149
967
1170
149
20110
2128
2276
2424
2847
3036
349
369
3635
3665
4114
4125
4248
4810
4824
5712
592
602
627
668 -
Peace,
It is right time we understand the meaning of ' thief ' before we cut off the hands of the ' thief '. Most islamic governments misappropriate the people's hard earned money. If the kings, princes and sheikhs are the followers of Muhammad in Islam then they could not have any money at all as their wealth; muhammad did not touch the money of the public except to distribute them to the needy. If we contrast this with the present rulers of the so called islamic nations, these rulers are munafiqins for who the punishment is slaying. First let us do that. If only they distributed the wealth among the public where is the question of stealing for food.
Food is the provident and the providence for Hunger, the life saving need for the living beings; therefore, hunger is the God Bestowed means for living. If the society is so careless that it does not distribute and provide food from the hoarding for the hungry ones then they are deliberate killers of all mankind, for which the penalty is blood for blood; life for life; and they are the people of hell. If a thief has stolen for food then we go to the cause of it the Society and the King/ruler/executives. All of them had squandered the peoples' food. Cut off Kings' hands first; then the rulers' under him and then the executives' hands. there is no way you can cut off the hands of the hungry human who defied their being killed by the rulers; and they just had eaten for survival, justly.
Finally dealing with the theft is not over with 5 38. This ayat is the beginning and it ends in the next ayat 5 39. If you read the ayat along with the 5 39 you cannot cut the hands off if the 'guilty' repents and offers to reform, for Allah has forgiven him already and that you cannot supersede Him, The Forgiving, The Merciful.
Quran should not be read and practiced in terms of literal meanings and grammatical application; but with application of mind. Arabic has no value at all in understanding the Quran but the pondering does have.
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The ONLY punishment for thieves as per the quran (and as stated in other 'holy books', is none other than to cut off or sever their hands which is what actually happened during ancient times. Any other explanations are apologetic in defiance. Similar punishments or threats are as follows
533 - The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
7124 - I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all.
2071 - He said, "Did you believe in him without my permission? He must be your chief; the one who taught you magic. I will surely sever your hands and feet on alternate sides. I will crucify you on the palm trunks. You will find out which of us can inflict the worst retribution, and who outlasts whom."
2649 - He said, "Did you believe with him before I give you permission? He must be your teacher, who taught you magic. You will surely find out. I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides. I will crucify you all."
Now compare the above with the following
538 - The thief, male or female, you shall cut off their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. -
http//www.ahadees.com/images/quran/arabic/5_38.gif
http//www.ahadees.com/images/quran/arabic/5_39.gifAnd the identified/convicted he-thief and she-thief, for reason of they being established guilty you people/society/Government restrain the hands of both two in the manner of handcuffing as a punishment, for what the two earned, from their Sustainer Lord. And Allah the Knower of hidden/invisible is Dominant. As a sequel of restraint, one who repented after having committed wrong upon him and rectified thereupon/resultantly certainly Allah will care/attend him. Certainly Allah is oft-forgiving Merciful.
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Peace everyone,
There have been enough discussions on this forum about this topic. One can use the search function.
According to Lane's Lexicon, "yad" can mean "means" which is synonymous with "resources" and "qat3" can mean "withdraw" or "put an end/stop to". Please see project root list http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
From dictionary.com
mean /min/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun 1. Usually, means. (used with a singular or plural verb) an agency, instrument, or method used to attain an end The telephone is a means of communication. There are several means of solving the problem.
2. means, a. available resources, esp. money They lived beyond their means.
b. considerable financial resources; riches a man of means.538 As for the thief, both male and female, you shall put an end to/withdraw their resources/means ? as a penalty for what they have earned ? to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes reparations, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Merciful.The fact that after repentence and reparation a thief is forgiven proves that in 538 it cannot be physical detaching of hands because that is irreversible generally speaking.
Even in English language, "cut" has been used to mean other than physical detaching. From dictionary.com
cut /kt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation
verb, cut, cutting, adjective, noun
?verb (used with object) 1. to penetrate with or as if with a sharp-edged instrument or object He cut his finger.
2. to divide with or as if with a sharp-edged instrument; sever; carve to cut a rope.
3. to detach with or as if with a sharp-edged instrument; separate from the main body; lop off to cut a slice from a loaf of bread.
4. to hew or saw down; fell to cut timber.
5. to trim by clipping, shearing, paring, or pruning to cut hair.
6. to mow; reap; harvest to cut grain.
7. to abridge or shorten; edit by omitting a part or parts to cut a speech.
8. to lower, reduce, diminish, or curtail (sometimes fol. by down) to cut prices.
9. to dilute; make less thick to cut wine.
10. to dissolve That detergent cuts grease effectively.
11. to intersect; cross One line cuts another at right angles.
12. Informal. to cease; discontinue (often fol. by out) Cut the kidding. Let's cut out the pretense.
13. to stop; halt the running of, as a liquid or an engine (often fol. by off) The pilot cut the engines and glided in for a landing. Cut off the hot water.
14. to dilute or adulterate (a drug) by mixing it with other substances.
15. to grow (a tooth or teeth) through the gum The baby is cutting his teeth.
16. to type, write, or draw on (a stencil) for mimeographing.
17. to make or fashion by cutting, as a statue, jewel, or garment.
18. Glassmaking. to produce a pattern (in glass) by grinding and polishing.
19. to refuse to recognize socially; shun ostentatiously Her friends began to cut her as the season progressed.
20. to strike sharply, as with a whip.
21. to absent oneself from allowed to cut three classes per semester.
22. Movies, Television. a. to stop (a scene or shot being filmed).
b. to edit (a film).-
to wound the feelings of severely.
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Cards. a. to divide (a pack of cards) at random into two or more parts, by removing cards from the top.
b. to take (a card) from a deck. -
to record a selection on (a phonograph record or tape); make a recording of.
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to castrate or geld.
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Sports. to hit (a ball) with either the hand or some instrument so as to change its course and often to cause it to spin.
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to hollow out; excavate; dig to cut a trench.
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Cricket. to strike and send off (a ball) in front of the batsman, and parallel to the wicket.
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Slang. to be a nonplaying dealer, manager, or supervisor of (a card game, crap game, or other gambling game) in return for a percentage of the money bet or sometimes for a fee.
The meaning of any word is determined by the context of usage and according to the context of 538 of forgiveness following repentance and reparation, it cannot possibly mean physical detaching of hand.
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From dictionary.com
There's an arabic dictionary on dictionary.com?
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Does anyone else understand the verse the way Mazhar does?
restrain the hands of both two in the manner of handcuffing as a punishment,
pvb, I have considered that the command be implemented/executed and have read with . Samia and brother Anwar could better explain the technicalities.
