Number of wives?

Raj-ah

rajah,

from one short addition of mine to samia's post how can you derive what i think about polygamy ? Not to talk bout slavery in islam?
i'm am not a champion of polygamy but i never stated it didn't exist in quran. i even agree with some of what you write here

Quote
For example consider why this issue of many wives was not raised till a century ago? with all these crackers, simply because it was not an issue then. Presently in Europe Muslims are bashed and criticised for practicing polygene, because Europeans think it is not good not just, however they would have no objection if women too are allowed to practice polyandry. They forget that few centuries back the Hindus, and even Jews practiced Polygene.

Ok!

except the part

Quote
however they would have no objection if women too are allowed to practice polyandry

... europeans have diverse ideas on these issues too

Actually the balme is inequality by allowing men to marry more than one wife at a time, therfore how can this inequality be removed

By abolishing the practice (which is not possible as disscussed in detail)
By allowing women to also practice polyandry

The reason i wrote they would have no objection if women are allowed polyandry, there would be no issue at all.

Elke

What you say about slavery is correct as well, but do you mean to say that if i agree on this it would mean that i accept slavery or that i should because it is mentionned in quran?

This is the point, you in your mind are against Slavery and you donot like it, that is the way you want to see the Quran, but that is not possible. Slavery was not abolished in Quran, but discouraged.

Elke

come on, stop generalizing and putting people in boxes
life is much more complex than that

I am sorry to mix you up with advocate of polyandry and with so called scholars who say Islam abolished slavery.

Dear Siki,

Very wise statement we should consider the most important point "right hand possesses"
This has been long established that polygyny is allowed in Islam and Quran. Is that "right hand" in addition to four wives or what is it? This is the question which is confusing one?

unknownuser

How is that? Because both of you put "muhsanaat" as married? Comme on! The verse after it says "And whoever among you could not find the means to marry the muhsanaat (married, according to you), then MMA....". Does it mean that there are means to marry them, but some do not have them? What is MMA in your opinion (both of you)? Because they seem to be the alternative in case you are uable to marry "the married"!

424

And the protected/inaccessible/ unapproachable women except those whom possess your right hands ????.

425
And who not is able of you to afford that he marries protected/ inaccessible/ unapproachable women, believing women then (marry) from Ma Malkat Aimanokum you have, believing and Allah knows all about your faith you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardian?s and give them their bridal-due in a fair manner married women should not be adulterous nor given to secret love affairs and when they are married????..

?????????

siki

Salaam Siki,

In fact I am amazed at men who think it a privilige for them that they can take multiple wives and often joke about it. I see this a very serious responsibility and I believe it is more to do with safegurding women's status and putting up a few hurdles for men.
As for Ma Malkat Emnakum it does not imply a licence for men to take concubines outside marriage, but rather a RESPONSIBILITY to take into your care as Qwamoon those vulnerable women who are otherwise left with no option but selling their bodes to support themselves which, in turn results in sin and the spreading of STD.
peace

This is exactly what I meant.

siki

siki

424

And the protected/inaccessible/ unapproachable women except those whom possess your right hands ????.

425
And who not is able of you to afford that he marries protected/ inaccessible/ unapproachable women, believing women then (marry) from Ma Malkat Aimanokum you have, believing and Allah knows all about your faith you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardian?s and give them their bridal-due in a fair manner married women should not be adulterous nor given to secret love affairs and when they are married????..

?????????

You need to go through the following thread thorougly to rid yourself off this confusion, specially the last few pages

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13799.0

siki

FAR

Salaam Siki,

In fact I am amazed at men who think it a privilige for them that they can take multiple wives and often joke about it. I see this a very serious responsibility and I believe it is more to do with safegurding women's status and putting up a few hurdles for men.
As for Ma Malkat Emnakum it does not imply a licence for men to take concubines outside marriage, but rather a RESPONSIBILITY to take into your care as Qwamoon those vulnerable women who are otherwise left with no option but selling their bodes to support themselves which, in turn results in sin and the spreading of STD.
peace

You do know that there are some women who have taught themselves how to make a man only want them. Perhaps that is what's lacking in some women - with husbands who ask for more woman, when they're probably not getting any.

Samia

Samia
The only thing noticeable in your whole post is pointing out the spelling mistake,

Should I be surprised? Do you notice anything past the name of the author of the post?And no, it was not "pointing out a spelling mistake", but pointing out that you respond emotionally without reading the thread

PEACE,
Please everyone say polygyny
once again please say polygyny

Islamic law is not funny lady!, No law is funny, changes are needed according to time.

Why am I not surprised, again, with you being sympathetic with the so called "Islamic" law, and that you believe that all it needs is change according to time? How long is this time? It has been there for 14 centuries! What it needs is not time but to be abolished altogether and replaced by a truely islamic law.

unknownuser

Thanks Siki,

love some feedback here-

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful

.424 And the independant from the women, except those you have authority over ????

425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independant women, then from those you have authority over of your girls the believing and Allah knows your faith and you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardians and give them their bridal due in a fair manner????..

Thanks,

And God Bless.

unknownuser

I think the Ayah's follow on from 421 and are telling us who its haram to go into, accept after nikah with those independant or under authority of others Accept 423 which tells us who are the totally forbidden to go into.

Our wives are under our authority so we may go into them, 424 says.

I think.

?

Samia

I think the Ayah's follow on from 421 and are telling us who its haram to go into, accept after nikah with those independant or under authority of others Accept 423 which tells us who are the totally forbidden to go into.

Our wives are under our authority so we may go into them, 424 says.

I think.

?

So God is telling men not to marry married women except those who are already married to them? Why this "except"? Do men need a verse to tell them to "go into" the women they are already married to? Unless you get out of this wrong translation of "muhsanaat" you can never come up with a logical understanding.

And who are those "independant women"? Independent in what sense? Is a married woman "independent"?

Raj-ah

Quran tells us that

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Now at last we will discuss the 43?.?aw ma malakat aymanukum? lit or what your right hands possessed,

The writer of article says

?ma malakat aymanukum? (MMA) can be found in the Quran to refer to different groups of people and women in different situations. The context is very important; this is not referring to slaves or captives.

please read the following Ayat

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

and now read the verse

And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one or that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

We know through the previous ayat that rights of slave women are half of that of a free women. So if not sure that we can be just then one wife is enough and in addition to that Free wife the slave women who can take care of the Orphans.

Why Allah makes a difference between a Slave women and free women, why allows men to have many slave women at a time in addition to wife?

These are questions which keep on hammering my mind since long time.
We are in process of understanding but one thing is for sure I never want to change Quran according to my own wishes. Weather I like slavery or not, weather i like polygyny or not.

unknownuser

So God is telling men not to marry married women except those who are already married to them? Why this "except"? Do men need a verse to tell them to "go into" the women they are already married to? Unless you get out of this wrong translation of "muhsanaat" you can never come up with a logical understanding.

And who are those "independant women"? Independent in what sense? Is a married woman "independent"?

I wasn't talking about the married women;

421
And how you could take it (dowery back) when has gone one of you (in) to another and they have taken from you a covenant strong.

422
And do not you marry women whom your fathers married of women except what has happened before indeed it was lewdness and abomination and an evil way.

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful

.424 And those who guard their chastity of the women with the exception of those who don?t guard their chastity??

425 And whoever of you don?t have the means to marry the believing women who guard their chastity, then from those who don?t guard their chastity of your girls/women the believing and Allah knows your faith and you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardians and give them their bridal due in a fair manner????..

Just an example of muhsanat;

2191
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples

God Bless.

liquiddharma

Raj-ah, the Quran says "It was not for any Prophet to hold captives except those taken in battle". Are you thinking that ma malakat aymanukum were in fact Amazons?

Fahad1

But where is the refutation?

When you wrote the following underlined sentence, did you mean "It definitely supports polygamy"?

Quote from Fahad on December 26, 2008, 090016 PM
It does not however rule out polygyny. ?Wives of their adopted sons? therefore suggests whether a believer has ?

one wife of one adopted son,
many wives of one adopted son,
or many wives of many adopted sons, ?

Yes.

Sorry for my late replies everyone.

Fahad1

There's nothing in the quraan forbidding the woman from making the same promise with another husband if she can keep it.

Of course! So, no more traditional excuses for why a woman cannot have more than a husband and peace of mind...well..sort of

So you don?t dispute that there is no Quranic restriction on polygyny?
You are also saying that the Quran does not forbid believers from practicing polyandry? You girls sound very happy about it.

Elke

Elke
Quote
What you say about slavery is correct as well, but do you mean to say that if i agree on this it would mean that i accept slavery or that i should because it is mentionned in quran?

This is the point, you in your mind are against Slavery and you donot like it, that is the way you want to see the Quran, but that is not possible. Slavery was not abolished in Quran, but discouraged.

Elke
Quote
come on, stop generalizing and putting people in boxes
life is much more complex than that

I am sorry to mix you up with advocate of polyandry and with so called scholars who say Islam abolished slavery.

rajah, you really have a wall around your mind. Most times, you do not even understand what people are telling you. You're the kind that needs ennemies and if you don't find them you fabricate them. Keep going, you're ways are so very islamic

ps and yes i prefer to be very precise the last sentence above was ironic

unknownuser

Quran tells us that

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Now at last we will discuss the 43?.?aw ma malakat aymanukum? lit or what your right hands possessed,

The writer of article says

please read the following Ayat

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

and now read the verse

And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one or that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

We know through the previous ayat that rights of slave women are half of that of a free women. So if not sure that we can be just then one wife is enough and in addition to that Free wife the slave women who can take care of the Orphans.

Why Allah makes a difference between a Slave women and free women, why allows men to have many slave women at a time in addition to wife?

These are questions which keep on hammering my mind since long time.
We are in process of understanding but one thing is for sure I never want to change Quran according to my own wishes. Weather I like slavery or not, weather i like polygyny or not.

Salaams Br,

All chaste women are forbidden for us accept what will give us the oath of trust/ marriage......

If you aren?t up to the standards of chaste women then you can take from what is available
when and if you marry a girl who doesn't very much care about being chaste then there may be a degree of risk of them doing acts forbidden , but we should have known this from their background - so may be half the punishment.

It's like giving a known thief a bag full of coins for safekeeping and giving a righteous person a bag full of coins- would they deserve the same punishment if one of them stole.

I doubt if God would ever allow such a thing as slavery.

peace

Raj-ah

liquiddharma

Raj-ah, the Quran says "It was not for any Prophet to hold captives except those taken in battle". Are you thinking that ma malakat aymanukum were in fact Amazons?

Some of them may be were amazon who realy fought the battle, but most of them were not. Trading of slaves was allowed and Quran did not put a ban on it. You should quote down the actual verse you are talking about making it easier to comment.

I think following verse will further clarify my point

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and parts meant to be hidden except what appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty of it except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden body parts. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss."

The verse is very clear that slaves are allowed and not all of them were offcourse amazons.

Raj-ah

Elke

rajah, you really have a wall around your mind. Most times, you do not even understand what people are telling you. You're the kind that needs ennemies and if you don't find them you fabricate them. Keep going, you're ways are so very islamic

ps and yes i prefer to be very precise the last sentence above was ironic

May be I have a wall around my mind, but there are holes in it, just peep inside and you will find some one who is not so bad as you think.

Raj-ah

Simple

Salaams Br,

All chaste women are forbidden for us accept what will give us the oath of trust/ marriage......

If you aren?t up to the standards of chaste women then you can take from what is available
when and if you marry a girl who doesn't very much care about being chaste then there may be a degree of risk of them doing acts forbidden , but we should have known this from their background - so may be half the punishment.

It's like giving a known thief a bag full of coins for safekeeping and giving a righteous person a bag full of coins- would they deserve the same punishment if one of them stole.

I doubt if God would ever allow such a thing as slavery.

Salaam to you too...

To arrive at what i am trying to point out just read the part red of your post. During the process of pointing out I lost a would be friend Elke and made increased my enemies.

Before We discuss the Quranic Ayats with reference to Islamic History or without refrence to Islamic History just answer my simple question dear Simple.

Why do you think so that God would never allow such a thing as Slavery.

unknownuser

Simple

Salaam to you too...

To arrive at what i am trying to point out just read the part red of your post. During the process of pointing out I lost a would be friend Elke and made increased my enemies.

Before We discuss the Quranic Ayats with reference to Islamic History or without refrence to Islamic History just answer my simple question dear Simple.

Why do you think so that God would never allow such a thing as Slavery.

It doesn't seem a righteous thing to do.

I wouldn't want to own another human being.

How ever you mightn't mind.

Here is some help though;

With respects;

2431
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husband's , their sons, the sons of their husbands' ,their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, their women or their husbands, male servants free of physical needs, small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

3355
There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women and whom they are married to (their husbands). And, (ladies), fear Allah; for Allah is Witness to all things.

or their women and whom they are married to (their husbands)

The ladies sisters husband or her mothers new husband or her daughters husband e.t.c what catagory would you put them in br. ?

Who cares slavery doesn't exist any more.

God Bless All.

peace