All Mighty God?

Bosnian_Thinker

Dear Alen,
An Omnipotent God can destroy us all in a fraction of a second, regardless of the qualities of our deeds. Can He not?

God is The All Able; He can do whatever He wants.

Diem

Dear Dime,

I think you missed my last post and still asking for explanation. Let me try again in a simple way. Please keep in mind that I am presenting my understanding so I have to give judgments according to my understanding. If you find me telling you wrong is only due to my understanding and not because it is a truth or a fact. So please don?t get it as personal attack.

Your assumptions are wrong in many ways due to your misunderstandings regarding His system.I think basic problem may be that you are assuming that GOD has decided the outcome of everything in this world and the hereafter.

If you consider that he makes or does everything and he knows what we will do then it is an assumption by you. I have not found any verse telling us this fact. The verses where God tells us that the outcome of these worldly affairs is according to his will and he makes those things happen then this is understandable but if you assume from these kinds of verses that he has decided the outcome of the hereafter too then that is the point where the real mess begins.

Your explanation is simple enough to understand - God knows the future but does not create it - but that was not the question.

Maybe you have not paid attention to my question. I'll try to give you an example, lets say I wanted to know the outcome of an act before I do it. In this case I want to know what will happen if I get hit by a car. Common sense dictates that I will die or get severely injured. Now, it is pointless to test my reasoning by actually going out onto a highway and standing in front of a speeding car.

In a similar way, God knows the outcome of creating humans, thus making the act of creating humans pointless and redundant since the outcome is known previous to the act being committed.

I hope you understand my example. peace

Khalil2

Hey guys,
I'm a muslim that has discovered your site and the "God Only" movement and I'v learned a lot of new things and been able to make my faith stronger. I have a question that I'v been thinking about for a while,

If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?

Dear Diem, Salaam.

You say, you are a Muslim. By definition, a Muslim is a "Submitter to God's Will". As a Muslim you must believe in His Words and Commandments, i.e., The Qur'an. God Willing as a Muslim you do so. Then if it is so, why this kind of questions come to your mind that I think no human will be able to have a clear-cut and satisfactory answer for you. I can ask all kinds of non sense questions just like yours. For example Can God create a rock that is so big and heavy that He won't be able to move it? If you say Yes, then God becomes an UNABLE god who can NOT move the rock. On the other hand, if you say No, then again He will be an UNABLE god in creating such a rock. Completely a non sense kind of question.

Secondly, as a Muslim, i.e., a Submitter to God's Will, what is it that you want to prove/achieve by asking this non relevant, non essential, time consuming, aimless..... to our cause kind of questions?

Thirdly, Instead, why don't you as a God fearing, God loving, Sincere Muslim spend all this time and energy in His cause and act like as you claim, i.e. as a whole-heartedly believer?

Forth, again leave God's business to God. As He Commands us in The Qur'an, just "LISTEN & OBEY", this is His covenant which we are obligated under, before Him. Believe me, the true happiness is SUBMISSION TO GOD ALONE.

Fifth, I am all for all kinds of scientific and logical dialogues and debates that are helpful in the betterment of our cause and/relations, God Willing.

With Salaam, Khalil.

khyaletanzim

Dear Dime,

Please read your example again.

I'll try to give you an example, lets say I wanted to know the outcome of an act before I do it. In this case I want to know what will happen if I get hit by a car. Common sense dictates that I will die or get severely injured. Now, it is pointless to test my reasoning by actually going out onto a highway and standing in front of a speeding car.

Regardless of your commonsense you are talking about a certain circumstances that is hit by a car. Brother there are lot of other possibilities which you seem to be unaware of. One can be that you get minor injuries. Other than that your act is to go in front of a car which has many other possibilities too, like driver can stop in time, driver can turn the steering on other side to save you and can hurt himself in the process etc. In that context I was telling you that our Future is not forced on us but the circumstances are surely forced.

If you consider that God makes or does everything and he knows what we will do then it is an assumption by you. I have not found any verse telling us this fact. The verses where God tells us that the outcome of these worldly affairs is according to his will and he makes those things happen then this is understandable by me because what I have understood by Quran is that we are here to prove our faith in God and He creates (forced) circumstances just to test us and not because he knows what we will do. Definitely God has the power to do anything but God also tells that he does not change his nature(ways) but if you assume from these kinds of verses that he has decided the outcome of the hereafter too then that is the point where the real mess begins. To Explain The whole system to you will not be possible in these posts.

Regards.

jonny_k

Peace "tay",

Peace Johnny,

Predestiny and justice cannot coexist. If one's death is predetermined, then every step along the way is predetermined, and thus those that strayed were "designed" to stray and, hence, suffer. There is no other way to reconcile it.

Peace,
Tay

JK- The term "justice" too only exists in a RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE. It is part of the causal continuum. Neurologists today know that a murderer has done his deeds because of the actions and reactions taking place in his/her neurons at the time YET these same people don't say that justice shouldn't be carried out BECAUSE THAT TOO is part of their neural response. In the animal world it could even have been that if at a certain point a certain animal didnt forcefully mate with a female our chain of ancestry would never have been setup and so wed never exist. Furthermore we are not the end product but just a part in the infinite continuum. So everything has a reason no matter how absurd it may seem to us RELATIVELY. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "BT",

Peace.

When a particle is analyzed, such as an electron, it is best analyzed as probability cloud. You cannot know both the exact position and momentum of a particle, and the more you know of one, the less you know about the other; this is the core of the principle of uncertainity.

JK- This is true and is so because of the observation limits we have at that level.

Each particle is ascribed a probability cloud, which tells you what the chance is that the particle will be in position A, what the chance is that the particle will be in position B, and so on. This cloud is spread accross the entire universe, but the farther and farther you get from the source, the smaller the chance gets. This doesn't mean that the particle has to be in the core; it only means that there's a higher chance of it being there than anywhere else. Have you ever heard of the experiments in which a photon and an electron are shot, and the electron arrives at the end faster than the photon, even though the photon travels at 300, 000km/s and is the cosmic speed limit (at least that's what most physicists think) ? This happens because the electron quantum tunnels; it "teleports" from one point to another. What you're saying is that if we had the technology to see a particle, there would be no more probability cloud and we could be 100% certain of its position. I agree, however, that doesn't mean that it can't quantum tunnel. Is there is a physicist in the house to help us out here? confused

JK- I agree this is a complex issue. And as far as the tunnelling is concerned that too has it's causes but wed hardly be able to analyse them from our reference point.

It seems to me that according to you, God never intervines in our lives or the workings of the universe. If this was true, then asking God for something would be pointless and a waste of time as far as I can tell.

JK- NO, asking for help in the right way could be an effective way of SELF SUGGESTION WHICH GOD PROGRAMMED INTO OUR BRAINS. This could certainly bring about positive results.

I read all three of these verses and the verses leading up to them; I do not see any connection between them and the order of the universe.

In this universe, there is matter, energy, space, and time. All of these are things God created with His unlimited power. Anything that is in this universe has to be made up of matter or energy ( both of these are actually two different forms of the same thing, which I call menergy ), it has to be at a certain point in space, and it has to exist in time. That's this universe. There might be other "universes" beyond ours which have completely different laws of physics or perhaps no physics at all, they might have more than one dimension of time, or no time at all, they might have more than three spatial dimensions, or they might not have space at all, and they might or might not have matter and/or energy. The fact is that there could be "universes" outside of ours that do not posses any of the characteristics that our universe does and which would not make any sense to us at all. Perhaps our souls lie in such a universe. My point is that the "location" of the soul doesn't matter, and that we might not be able to even comprehend it. God's power is not limited to creating things out of space, time , matter, and energy alone; He can make whatever He wants. We can't understand everything; we can't completely understand God, and I don't think we can competely understand the soul. Perhaps the soul is something physical as you believe ( and I'm sure the guy who measured the mass of the soul would agree with you ), but I don't think so. Peace. ) ) )

JK- There has to be an infininite no of universes out there and also an infinite no of energy. Thats inevitable because every effect has to have a cause all the way to infinity and i dont see why GOD Whos Power is Infinite would create only one universe. We as observers are blocked to observe this infinite energy by the planck's constant(smallest wavelength of photons possible in our universe) and this is how a universe is setup otherwise thered be infinite amount of light all around us and we cldnt exist as individuals. The baisc point to remeber is. For every universe GOD would have FIXED laws. Intervening and violating His own laws in any particular universe every now and then would not magnify GOD it would GOD forbid degrade Him and is not something to be appreciatec. GOD Bless!

Bosnian_Thinker

Peace.

JK- NO, asking for help in the right way could be an effective way of SELF SUGGESTION WHICH GOD PROGRAMMED INTO OUR BRAINS. This could certainly bring about positive results.

JK- There has to be an infininite no of universes out there and also an infinite no of energy. Thats inevitable because every effect has to have a cause all the way to infinity and i dont see why GOD Whos Power is Infinite would create only one universe. We as observers are blocked to observe this infinite energy by the planck's constant(smallest wavelength of photons possible in our universe) and this is how a universe is setup otherwise thered be infinite amount of light all around us and we cldnt exist as individuals. The baisc point to remeber is. For every universe GOD would have FIXED laws. Intervening and violating His own laws in any particular universe every now and then would not magnify GOD it would GOD forbid degrade Him and is not something to be appreciatec. GOD Bless!

There does not have to be an infinite number of universes nor does there have to be an infinite amount of energy. This is a theory of yours ( one that many scientists share ), but it's not a fact.
God's power has no limit; He is The All Able. None of us can understand God. Nobody can understand God except for God.
You believe in what I call the Infinite Wheel of Cause and Effect. Remember, in this universe there is a cause for every effect and there is an effect for every cause. Many people use this idea to make the stupid argument where they say something like " If God created the universe, then who created God?" This is ridicilous! Nobody created God, and as I have said before, we will never be able to understand God completely. There are some things that will always be out of our reach.
You say you don't understand why God would create only one universe. So what? God knows best the reasons for why He does certain things and why He doesn't do others. God might make something happen to you which to you would seem like a bad thing, but in the end you see that it was actually a good thing. Again, we cannot understand God!!!
Concerning light, you were talking about Olber's Paradox. The paradox was that since there were so many light sources in the sky ( such as stars ), then the night sky should be brighter than the daytime sky because when all that light from those sources reached Earth, the sky should've become very bright due to all this incoming light. The reason for why this isn't the actual situation is because as light is emitted, it's frequency decreases over time, which makes for less powerful light rays. For example, light could be emitted in gamma form from a star and reach the Earth in radio form. Also, the atmosphere blocks out several forms of light.
You don't know how many universes exist, nor do you know whether God has made fixed rules for all of them. Consider Hell, for example. Hell might be in its own universe. The Quran says that there are seven universes, but what that means is open to interpretation. Hell might exst in its own universe in which there are no fixed rules, in which there is no fixed system. Maybe there's fire that doesn't obey physics or something like that, but instead moves randomly. Another point I want to make is that many physicists believe that over the course of time since this universe's beginning, there might have been fluctuations in the universes fundemental physical values, which would then affect all the constants of the universe meaning that the physics of this universe could have changed over time. This especially appears true when getting closer and closer to the Planck Epoch, which is a period of the universe that nobody understands.
This comment is about your first sentence. You need to explain your idea a bit further.

I could write a lot more, but this is it for now. If you don't understand something, please tell me.

nimnimak_11

Peace JK and Bosnian thinker

About cause and effect. Just wanted to point out the concepts i learnt in Philosophy.

Everything that is contingent has a cause. You cannot have an infinite number of causes as something must have started the chain link of causes. Hence there must be an uncaused cause, something that is outside of the contingency cycle that starts the chain. This is God. (Thomas Aquinas)
Cause and effect is just the way our mind has been setup to analyse the universe. The truth could be otherwise. (Kant)

Personally i agree with the 1st one but i think Kant also has a good point. There might be something beyond cause and effect that we can't properly precieve. Becuase i believe in God i think that this mind setup guides us to the truth in which the law of cause and effect is the truth.

Ultimately i agree with Thomas Aquinas.

nimnimak_11

Your explanation is simple enough to understand - God knows the future but does not create it - but that was not the question.

Maybe you have not paid attention to my question. I'll try to give you an example, lets say I wanted to know the outcome of an act before I do it. In this case I want to know what will happen if I get hit by a car. Common sense dictates that I will die or get severely injured. Now, it is pointless to test my reasoning by actually going out onto a highway and standing in front of a speeding car.

In a similar way, God knows the outcome of creating humans, thus making the act of creating humans pointless and redundant since the outcome is known previous to the act being committed.

I hope you understand my example. peace

Peace Diem

I'll try and use your own example to try and convey my understanding in which currently i believe God knows the outcome of everything.

Say that i know that if I stand in the middle of a motorway the 100% deffinate outcome is that i will get hit by a car, die and go to Heaven.

Before i do this act, i know that this is 100% what will happen. As going to Heaven is a good outcome, i go ahead and put my plan into action.

Similarly with God, my understanding is that he knows what the outcome of our creation will be. As it will be let's say a good outcome, God created us possibly so as to put the plan into action.

I would'nt go to heaven if i did not stand in the middle of the motorway. Similarly, PERHAPS God's plan would not have it's outcome if he did not put it into action.

I hope you understood my example
If i have failed to answer any part of your question, please let me know so i can have another try )

Bosnian_Thinker

Peace!

Peace JK and Bosnian thinker

Everything that is contingent has a cause. You cannot have an infinite number of causes as something must have started the chain link of causes. Hence there must be an uncaused cause, something that is outside of the contingency cycle that starts the chain.

bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo

Like I have said before, we CAN'T understand God. He has no beginning and He was not created; He is The Creator.

I was wondering if you had an opinion on what I'm about to say. It's possible that there is a universe out there that has no time. That would mean that everything happens at once. What would be the situation of cause and effect there? Obviously there was a cause that lead to the creation of that universe, and the creation of it would be the effect. But what about cause and effect after that point? I find this a bit confusing.

Peace.

SubmitterToGOD

Hey guys,
I'm a muslim that has discovered your site and the "God Only" movement and I'v learned a lot of new things and been able to make my faith stronger. I have a question that I'v been thinking about for a while,

If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?

peace be upon you,

if GOD would put the disbelivers in hell before the creation, they would claim that they don't deserve it, and that they didn't know how terrible it was. but GOD makes them experience this life, so that they are fully aware that they deserve hellfire.
why?

because GOD has decreed that the truth shall overcome falsehood

nimnimak_11

Peace!

bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo

Like I have said before, we CAN'T understand God. He has no beginning and He was not created; He is The Creator.

I was wondering if you had an opinion on what I'm about to say. It's possible that there is a universe out there that has no time. That would mean that everything happens at once. What would be the situation of cause and effect there? Obviously there was a cause that lead to the creation of that universe, and the creation of it would be the effect. But what about cause and effect after that point? I find this a bit confusing.

Peace.

Peace Bosnian thinker

Sorry for the late reply. I need to check the forum of this site more often.

About what you said about the universe without time.

I've never given thought to such a concept. It is interesting.

Currently I think such a universe does not exist or if a universe like that exists then for it to be without time it would put it outside of our laws and as we humans are part of the laws of this universe, we would not have any clue as to how any concept like cause and effect could apply to it.

One thing you said though was that this timeless universe would have had a cause and that the effect would be it's creation. With what we understand, would'nt that already put some sort of time on this universe?

I mean like it had a begining. Dosn't that make it time related??
But then again we only understand the laws of this universe.

Perhaps only God is an exception to time.

What do you think?

Ahmad_Bilal

One thing you said though was that this timeless universe would have had a cause and that the effect would be it's creation. With what we understand, would'nt that already put some sort of time on this universe?

I mean like it had a begining. Dosn't that make it time related??
But then again we only understand the laws of this universe.

Perhaps only God is an exception to time.

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

nimnimak_11

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

Makes sense ! bravo

peace

jonny_k

Peace "BT",
Sorry for the late reply.

Peace.

There does not have to be an infinite number of universes nor does there have to be an infinite amount of energy. This is a theory of yours ( one that many scientists share ), but it's not a fact.

JK- If this is not so then this would mean that theres perpetual motion going on. What caused the "first" particle in our universe to move if not another particle and so on ad infinitum? Thats why in order to be consistent with llogic it has to be so.

God's power has no limit; He is The All Able. None of us can understand God. Nobody can understand God except for God.

JK- Ok is GOD able to create a rock that He Himself cannot lift? Think about that one. BESIDES here the issue wasnt if GOD can or cannot do something BUT AS TO WHAT HE ACTUALLY CHOSE TO DO.

You believe in what I call the Infinite Wheel of Cause and Effect. Remember, in this universe there is a cause for every effect and there is an effect for every cause. Many people use this idea to make the stupid argument where they say something like " If God created the universe, then who created God?" This is ridicilous! Nobody created God, and as I have said before, we will never be able to understand God completely. There are some things that will always be out of our reach.

JK- I know this is stupid and i know that nobody created GOD. Ive explained already that GOD is there AS A RESULT OF THE VERY INFINITE CAUSE AND EFFECTS WHICH HAVE LED GOD TO BE THERE. But since this happened infinite "time" ago we might as well say GOD was always there. This is the crucial pt those people miss. They shldve thought a bit further. And ofcourse you cant understand GOD completely EVER because Hes Infinite in every regard which is again causally inevitable.

You say you don't understand why God would create only one universe. So what? God knows best the reasons for why He does certain things and why He doesn't do others. God might make something happen to you which to you would seem like a bad thing, but in the end you see that it was actually a good thing. Again, we cannot understand God!!!

JK- The simplest explanation at hand is that the Infinite GOD with Infinite knowledge would continue to use His Power and create infinite amount of beings or did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created only one universe?

Concerning light, you were talking about Olber's Paradox. The paradox was that since there were so many light sources in the sky ( such as stars ), then the night sky should be brighter than the daytime sky because when all that light from those sources reached Earth, the sky should've become very bright due to all this incoming light. The reason for why this isn't the actual situation is because as light is emitted, it's frequency decreases over time, which makes for less powerful light rays. For example, light could be emitted in gamma form from a star and reach the Earth in radio form. Also, the atmosphere blocks out several forms of light.

JK- Yes but im talking about a much more complex issue i.e. the infinite intervention theorem. Meaning if there are infinite universes, then inevitably an infinite amount of intelligence is going to penetrate every universe and force it's own will till all have reached ONE COMPLETE LOGICAL WAY OF THINKING. This does not happen because GOD is already there before all His creations and is yet another proof for His existence and Him being one.

You don't know how many universes exist, nor do you know whether God has made fixed rules for all of them. Consider Hell, for example. Hell might be in its own universe. The Quran says that there are seven universes, but what that means is open to interpretation. Hell might exst in its own universe in which there are no fixed rules, in which there is no fixed system. Maybe there's fire that doesn't obey physics or something like that, but instead moves randomly. Another point I want to make is that many physicists believe that over the course of time since this universe's beginning, there might have been fluctuations in the universes fundemental physical values, which would then affect all the constants of the universe meaning that the physics of this universe could have changed over time. This especially appears true when getting closer and closer to the Planck Epoch, which is a period of the universe that nobody understands.

JK- The word "7 heavens" need not mean "7 universes" but seven layers of the universe right here i.e. 7 layers of our universe. Moreover the Quran does not say that GOD only created 7 universes, period. I understand that these are for us to observe beyond which we can never go unless we die, are converted to quantum waves and then rise back again on DOJ. As for the laws of a universe they MUST BE THE SAME. If theyr not then how would you know it's the same GOD doing these "miracles"? Say tomorrow the sky breaks open and Jesus comes down. Would that make me believe in one god? On the contrary it would make me think this universe was created by a different god and now this god intervened and destroyed the laws of the former god. Do you understand now why the real miracle is the absence of such paranormal events?

This comment is about your first sentence. You need to explain your idea a bit further.

I could write a lot more, but this is it for now. If you don't understand something, please tell me.

JK- Quantum particles/waves are the smallest particles possible in our universe. In order to observe them directly wed need even smaller particles which we wld never have. Thats why these problems are inevitable. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "nimnismak",

Peace JK and Bosnian thinker

About cause and effect. Just wanted to point out the concepts i learnt in Philosophy.

Everything that is contingent has a cause. You cannot have an infinite number of causes as something must have started the chain link of causes. Hence there must be an uncaused cause, something that is outside of the contingency cycle that starts the chain. This is God. (Thomas Aquinas)

JK- NO this wrong and illogical and it will not convince anyone of the existence of GOD. Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". That is the most logical definition i can think off.

Cause and effect is just the way our mind has been setup to analyse the universe. The truth could be otherwise. (Kant)

JK- This is another nonsense thinking. No cause and effect equals nothingness by its very definition.

Personally i agree with the 1st one but i think Kant also has a good point. There might be something beyond cause and effect that we can't properly precieve. Becuase i believe in God i think that this mind setup guides us to the truth in which the law of cause and effect is the truth.

Ultimately i agree with Thomas Aquinas.

JK- The expression "there mightg be somehting beyond cause and effect" is as faulty as "GOD can create a rock which He Himself cannot lift". Think abt tht one. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "ahmed Bilal",

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

JK- Im sorry to say that your still stuck with this faulty logic of T. Aquinas. This statement is as false as saying that "GOD can make a rock which He Himself cannot lift". I dont even call cause and effect a law. Rather it's a LOGICAL NECESSITY and as i explained GOD will inevitably be there by accepting infinite cause and effect and He or any ultimate Being wont be there at all if it is not accepted sice no cause and effect by definition means NOTHING. GOD Bless!

Bosnian_Thinker

JK- If this is not so then this would mean that theres perpetual motion going on. What caused the "first" particle in our universe to move if not another particle and so on ad infinitum? Thats why in order to be consistent with llogic it has to be so.

According to the law of conservation of energy - which states that the total energy in a closed system is always conserved - perpetual motion is not possible. This law does not always work. Have you ever heard of virtual particles? They are particles that pop in and out once in a while from nowhere; in this case, the law of conservation of energy breaks down. Perhaps perpetual motion is possible somehow. I highly doubt it, but it's possible.
Quantum gravity is not well understood and that is why the Planck Epoch is so confusing. I think String Theory is the answer but I don't know. Collisions are not the only cases in which particles move. Forces can move particles. Space can move particles. The earth gravitates around the sun because the sun, which has an enormous mass, warps the fabric of spacetime around it causing the earth to circle in that warp. In this case, a particle is not required at all to make another particle move.
I mentioned the Planck Epoch above. I believe that the Big Bang theory is correct, and according to the Big Bang theory, there was a singularity which then evolved into space, time, matter, and energy. The first stage of the universe according to this theory was the Planck Epoch. The Planck Epoch is not understood at all; it only lasted 1 x 10^-43s, but it's more complex than any other epoch. It set the foundation for the rest of the universe and it is unknown what happened during it. You said in your post that "it has to be so". It does not have to be so. I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer either, and so stop saying that it HAS to be so! No one knows what happened at the beginning of the universe, and that includes you.

JK- Ok is GOD able to create a rock that He Himself cannot lift? Think about that one. BESIDES here the issue wasnt if GOD can or cannot do something BUT AS TO WHAT HE ACTUALLY CHOSE TO DO.

God is The All Able. He could absolutely create a rock that He could not lift. However, why would God ever do such a thing? Why would God ever do something that limits His power? That wouldn't make any sense.

JK- I know this is stupid and i know that nobody created GOD. Ive explained already that GOD is there AS A RESULT OF THE VERY INFINITE CAUSE AND EFFECTS WHICH HAVE LED GOD TO BE THERE. But since this happened infinite "time" ago we might as well say GOD was always there. This is the crucial pt those people miss. They shldve thought a bit further. And ofcourse you cant understand GOD completely EVER because Hes Infinite in every regard which is again causally inevitable.

What are you talking about?!

JK- The simplest explanation at hand is that the Infinite GOD with Infinite knowledge would continue to use His Power and create infinite amount of beings or did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created only one universe?

Did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created more than one universe?
It doesn't matter what the simplest explanation is. The question is what is the true explanation? This is something that only God knows completely.

JK- Yes but im talking about a much more complex issue i.e. the infinite intervention theorem. Meaning if there are infinite universes, then inevitably an infinite amount of intelligence is going to penetrate every universe and force it's own will till all have reached ONE COMPLETE LOGICAL WAY OF THINKING. This does not happen because GOD is already there before all His creations and is yet another proof for His existence and Him being one.

I don't understand what you said here at all. Please explain.

JK- The word "7 heavens" need not mean "7 universes" but seven layers of the universe right here i.e. 7 layers of our universe. Moreover the Quran does not say that GOD only created 7 universes, period. I understand that these are for us to observe beyond which we can never go unless we die, are converted to quantum waves and then rise back again on DOJ. As for the laws of a universe they MUST BE THE SAME. If theyr not then how would you know it's the same GOD doing these "miracles"? Say tomorrow the sky breaks open and Jesus comes down. Would that make me believe in one god? On the contrary it would make me think this universe was created by a different god and now this god intervened and destroyed the laws of the former god. Do you understand now why the real miracle is the absence of such paranormal events?

Where in the Quran does it say that the 7 heavens relates to layers of this universe? I don't remember ever reading such a verse.
The Quran does not say that God created more than 7 universes.
Again you're saying that something MUST exist in a certain way. If the Quran said that the laws of a universe must always be the same, then I would agree with you. However, that's not the case and so perhaps they always do stay the same and perhaps they don't.

JK- Quantum particles/waves are the smallest particles possible in our universe. In order to observe them directly wed need even smaller particles which we wld never have. Thats why these problems are inevitable. GOD Bless!

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! I think strings are the smallest things in the universe. I don't believe that there's an infinite sequence in either the macro or micro directions.
jonny k, throughout your post, you have said a thousand times that something must be like this or that. Well, you're wrong. God is the only one who understands completely His creation. You don't. When you reply to this post, reply in a rightful manner or I will not reply. Thank you!

jonny_k

Peace "BT",

According to the law of conservation of energy - which states that the total energy in a closed system is always conserved - perpetual motion is not possible. This law does not always work. Have you ever heard of virtual particles? They are particles that pop in and out once in a while from nowhere; in this case, the law of conservation of energy breaks down. Perhaps perpetual motion is possible somehow. I highly doubt it, but it's possible.

JK- If you doubt perpetual motion exists then there must be an infinite amount of energy out there. Furthermore virtual particles only suddenly popup because we cannot examine the exact cause till now. That by no means means hat they actually popout of nothing because if particles can just popout of nothing then what hinders them to do so an infinite no of times thus causing infinite intervention and not allowing anything to exist.

Quantum gravity is not well understood and that is why the Planck Epoch is so confusing. I think String Theory is the answer but I don't know. Collisions are not the only cases in which particles move. Forces can move particles. Space can move particles. The earth gravitates around the sun because the sun, which has an enormous mass, warps the fabric of spacetime around it causing the earth to circle in that warp. In this case, a particle is not required at all to make another particle move.

JK- Yes but space, forces etc is all particles just some cannot be defined yet. It's all cause and effect otherwise it's nothing. Since we know space is something it must be made out of particles and ofcourse theres a cause for every effect.

I mentioned the Planck Epoch above. I believe that the Big Bang theory is correct, and according to the Big Bang theory, there was a singularity which then evolved into space, time, matter, and energy. The first stage of the universe according to this theory was the Planck Epoch. The Planck Epoch is not understood at all; it only lasted 1 x 10^-43s, but it's more complex than any other epoch. It set the foundation for the rest of the universe and it is unknown what happened during it. You said in your post that "it has to be so". It does not have to be so. I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer either, and so stop saying that it HAS to be so! No one knows what happened at the beginning of the universe, and that includes you.

JK- One thing i can say for sure that EVERY EFFECT MUST HAVE A CAUSE AD INFINTUM or else offer a logical explanation around this taking into consideration that this would also mean that GOD can create a rock which He himself cannot lift. Makes no sense!!!

God is The All Able. He could absolutely create a rock that He could not lift. However, why would God ever do such a thing? Why would God ever do something that limits His power? That wouldn't make any sense.

JK- MAN THIS MAKES NO SENSE! Bro your arguments are becoming ridiculous now. If this is true then GOD can also turn into a man and all anthropomorphic religions could claim to be right. This is exactly the point why i say trinity is wrong because the Infinite Being cannot turn Himself into a Finite Being. It is logically impossible. For the last time with your type of argumentaion everyone on this forum is absolutely right. theres no point of having anymore discussion.

What are you talking about?!

JK- Im talking about GOD resulting out of an infinite no of random fluctuations which have lasted over an infinite period of "time" in the quantum realm before anything was created by Him by differentiating the quantum particles into matter as in our universe.

Did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created more than one universe?

JK- No but logic dictates that as ive mentioned and since the Quran doesnt negate this so it is true. If GOD has unlimited knowledge Hed use it endlessly. Doesnt make sense that Hed only create a limited amount of creatures.

It doesn't matter what the simplest explanation is. The question is what is the true explanation? This is something that only God knows completely.

JK- Yes and what ive explaiend is the best explanation possible by the use of logic and thts as close as wed ever get. Im not denying tht. Anyone can try and challenge my statements. lets see how logical thtd get.

I don't understand what you said here at all. Please explain.

JK- I mean since ive already said tht GOD creating an infinite no of beings wld be only reasonable to assume since He has Infinite knowledge each one of those has a seprate universe after a certain pt so tht there cant be an infinite amount of disturbance as an infinite set of intelligent beings play out against another.

Where in the Quran does it say that the 7 heavens relates to layers of this universe? I don't remember ever reading such a verse.

JK- No that is what i assume it to mean and im allowed to do so as are you. However to say that this 7 heavens refers to the absolute amount of universes seems ludicrous to me as ive mentioned before and it will not convince most rational minds.

The Quran does not say that God created more than 7 universes.

JK- It doesnt say not either so the pt must be approached using thinking outside the Quran.

Again you're saying that something MUST exist in a certain way. If the Quran said that the laws of a universe must always be the same, then I would agree with you. However, that's not the case and so perhaps they always do stay the same and perhaps they don't.

JK- Yes the Quran does say tht GOD's system NEVER CHANGES. This is very clear to me and many others especially bro Arnold whos written articles on this numerous times. Once again if GOD changed His own laws any time how on earth would we ever know it's the same god and not another god?. How wld we know that theres only one god? Think, this is only possible if the laws are the same throughout the universe.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! I think strings are the smallest things in the universe. I don't believe that there's an infinite sequence in either the macro or micro directions.

JK- Strings are quantum fluctuations. You can divide each quantum fwave/particle and get a smaller/lesser energetic uantum particle/wave ad infintum too.

jonny k, throughout your post, you have said a thousand times that something must be like this or that. Well, you're wrong. God is the only one who understands completely His creation. You don't. When you reply to this post, reply in a rightful manner or I will not reply. Thank you!

JK- I never claimed to understand completely GOD or His creation. You dont get it. There are howver some points which are logical and hence must be so like cause and effect for example or 1+1 being 2. THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE VERY DEFINITIONS OF THE TERMS. If you say there might be a place where theres no cause and effect then you have to explain such a hypothetical area and not just say "eerything is possible". I told you already that if there is something then by definition there is cause and effect otherwise there is nothing. plain and simple. GOD Bless!

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace "Jonny_K",

JK- Im sorry to say that your still stuck with this faulty logic of T. Aquinas. This statement is as false as saying that "GOD can make a rock which He Himself cannot lift". I dont even call cause and effect a law. Rather it's a LOGICAL NECESSITY and as i explained GOD will inevitably be there by accepting infinite cause and effect and He or any ultimate Being wont be there at all if it is not accepted sice no cause and effect by definition means NOTHING.

This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.

You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.

Peace,

Ahmad