How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?
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There is no reason for a Muslims to attack the Bible.
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YUSUFALI And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).005.047
YUSUFALI Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.005.048
YUSUFALI To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you -
FAR - Those were the GOD inspired words of eyewitnesses to the event. Do you own a Bible?
Bibles...? Do I even own a quran? I did but I don't what happened to that little copy. Though there's a small red one in my room collecting dust and one quran also collecting dust probably on the same shelf.
Do I need to own a copy? No, as they're easily available online.
All I need to do is memorize the text and the commentary by heart.
Yes, you are a Quran only Muslim!! That is a good point!
Such a term as "quranist" or "quran only" goes against the teaching of Quran 3032. I do not call myself these terms.
There is a difference between hadith and eyewitnesses though, we have much of the GOD inspired original writings of the eyewitneses. Hadith was passed down orally for a couple of hundred years before it was written down. No one has a solid back up that an event ever happened. In the Gospels you have the 4 to validate each other.
Sir... please refer to the article here regarding the acceptance of oral events
http//www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/504/cosmic_debris.htmlAnyway your Quran validates the Gospel!!
Which Gospel? You got a Gospel of Jesus? Then show it.
As for the Quran validating the gospel, that's not the same as validating the certain misconceptions by some people.
Some prophecies of Jesus
Psalm 22
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him
may your hearts live forever!27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him
those who cannot keep themselves alive.30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn
for he has done it.Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.I wonder if this verse is why the Gnostics believed that Jesus was a spirit only?
Are any of those supposed to be of Jesus's words? Let the saviour speak.
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There were many Gospels running around, some which even said Jesus wasn't GOD.
RT, is there any Gospels which said Jesus WAS GOD????
It's quite strange and almost impossible to imagine a 'jewish guy' in the middle of 'jewish community' claiming to the jews that I AM GOD / I AM YHVH.
There's HUGE difference on the "GOD" concept within the Jewish and the Paganistic culture.
And when the two cultures mixed up... poof.. we got a jewish guy considered as a new God by the pagans (to unite the roman empire).
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RT, is there any Gospels which said Jesus WAS GOD????
It's quite strange and almost impossible to imagine a 'jewish guy' in the middle of 'jewish community' claiming to the jews that I AM GOD / I AM YHVH.
There's HUGE difference on the "GOD" concept within the Jewish and the Paganistic culture.
And when the two cultures mixed up... poof.. we got a jewish guy considered as a new God by the pagans (to unite the roman empire).
bravo I completely agree... I've never seen any Gospels where Jesus claims to be "GOD". This is something that pagan Roman tradition promoted, and it spread into the Christian doctrine, most likey through Paul, who was the biggest promoter in the Biblical cannon of rejection of the Jewish law, their biggest commandment being the acknowledgement of God's oneness. When Jewish law and paganism mixed, they created "Christianity"...
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We are off topic but I'm ok with it. Of course it goes back to interpretations of the verses.
Why stone Jesus for this statement?
John 8
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
And this one?
John 10
30I and the Father are one."31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 12
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 12
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 6
32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 8
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Getting back to the thread and one of my favorites
John 10
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep
John 11
21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day.
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We are off topic but I'm ok with it. Of course it goes back to interpretations of the verses.
Why stone Jesus for this statement?
John 8
-- cutted --Ah all of your citation is from the "Gospel According To John" a problematic, different of its own, hellenized and anti-jewish Gospel.
Written in eloquent Greek probably by a non-jews or perhaps a hellenized Jews circa 100 AD.None from the synoptic Gospel? (Mark, Matt, Luke)
There are no record of "The Jews Hate Jesus" or even throw stones to Jesus in the synoptic Gospel (Mark, Matt, Luke).
In the synoptic;
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the common Jews Loves Jesus!... and why shouldn't they?? the young rebbe and his companion is offering them free healing and medical services!!
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Iashua the young carpenter turned rebbe has rise to a 'celebrity level' of popularity within a short period and has became a 'rebbe' within the Pharisees controlled and very prestigious Jerusalem temple (Beyt Elohym), and many jews flocks to the temple to hear his teaching and gives him a warm welcome upon entering Jerusalem..
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The popularity of this young and charismatic rebbe, has upsetted many rebbes within the Sanhedrin, in which back then were mainly populated from the "Shammai" school of thought. Due to envy and viewed as a threat of their established position, the head priest of the Sanhedrin (Yosef Ben Caiaphas, a disciple of Shammaism) plotted a scheme to end the popularity of the young and charismatic rebbe. But they can't do it by themselves, as it will upset the common jewish folks; so they ask the romans to do it... Thus the young rebbe was sentenced death by the romans through romanisque-style of crucifixion..
But the young rebbe somehow survived the crucifixion, possibly through the help and ingenious plot of a jewish guy which is also a member of the Sanhedrin named Yosef of Arimathea..
Salam / Shalom / Peace
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bravo I completely agree... I've never seen any Gospels where Jesus claims to be "GOD". This is something that pagan Roman tradition promoted, and it spread into the Christian doctrine, most likey through Paul, who was the biggest promoter in the Biblical cannon of rejection of the Jewish law, their biggest commandment being the acknowledgement of God's oneness. When Jewish law and paganism mixed, they created "Christianity"...
Salaam
Jews are thinking again about Jesus
?Jesus the Jew? will be shown on Channel 4 as part of the Christianity series at 7pm on Sunday January 11 London TV,
Don?t turn away ? Jesus was ours
From The Jewish Chronicle
Howard Jacobson
January 8, 2009
It is a cultural obligation for us to get the man Christians call the Son of God into contextSo Ahmadinejad ? in his Christmas Day address to the British public ? thinks Jesus would have been on his side. I have news for him. Jesus would no more have been on his side than the Holocaust never happened. Jesus was a patriotic Jew ? not quite the freedom fighter Jews living under Roman occupation were hoping for but a prophet of the Jewish people, a devout believer in the Jewish God and stringent preacher of His law, a fierce ethical polemicist, a lover of peace but in so angry and ironic a spirit that it sometimes feels the opposite of peace. Maybe too Jewish in that case ? but that is to make another point.
I argue this in a Channel 4 film to be shown this Sunday, Jesus the Jew. Forty years ago, while teaching English at King David High School in Manchester, I got into a spot of bother with my pupils? parents for saying something similar. It had disturbed me that when Jesus?s name came up in the course of a class on John Donne or DH Lawrence ? it doesn?t matter which study English literature and you?ll hit upon Jesus ? the overwhelming response was angry embarrassment. Jesus was not someone my pupils felt they should be asked to talk or even know about.
I don?t say I understood nothing of their feelings. Jews have crowded memories enough; there are some things we would rather forget. But Jewish or not, high-school children of 15 and 16 were culturally obliged, it seemed to me ? obliged to themselves no less ? to be informed about Jesus and not to be thrown into confusion by his name.
So I got them to write an essay on Jesus. ?Over our dead bodies,? a number of the parents responded. A few rang the headmaster. If this was what was meant by a Jewish education they would have to consider taking their children elsewhere. Let them, was my attitude. Religion is no excuse for ignorance.
But the school, of course, thought differently. They were not going to allow a mass exodus on account of Jesus Christ. Not again.
Of the pupils who did write the essay, many rehashed the scurrilous defamations of Jesus which have circulated within Judaism for centuries. To keep it brief ? Jesus (real name Yoshkie) was the son of a whore, a bastard who abused the rabbis assigned to teach him, engaged in all manner of blasphemy and lewdness, and was finally kicked out of yeshivah.
For what he went on to do by way of revenge on the Jewish people ? ie invent Christianity (so be careful who you throw out of yeshivah) ? he now sits for all eternity in boiling excrement.
That this is no more than answering like with like, given the libels Christians have visited on Jews for two thousand years, I accept. Christianity has been our calamity; it would be no surprise, all things considered, if we were to tell viler stories still. But it is depressing, nonetheless, to see us fail, when challenged to be serious, to rise above the ugly superstitious libels of those who have superstitiously libelled us.
Intellectually, we might just as well be sitting in boiling excrement ourselves. Not only does our reluctance to engage with Jesus shut us out from knowledge of other religions ? and that was what I hated about the shrinking and revulsion I encountered at King David the gating of ourselves in ? it denies us access to a crucial chapter in the history of our own.
For no matter what has been done subsequently in his name, the truth is that Jesus spoke as a Jew, for Jews and to Jews ? exclusively to Jews, he often claimed (?I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?) ? and was not only innocent of Christianity but would have railed against it.
?I believe with Jesus,? Martin Buber wrote, ?but I don?t believe in him.? Believing ?in? him is of course impossible for us, because believing in him means believing he was the son of God. This would have been impossible for Jesus, too. He never blasphemed against the One God by claiming to be his Son. And never claimed to be setting up a rival religion. A renewed Judaism was his goal, a Judaism re-affirmed according to the word of God, in fulfilment of His laws and in Messianic expectation of His coming.
We forget that the Messiah was a Jewish concept, and baptism a Jewish ritual. The words have grown alien to us by association, or, if you like, by misappropriation. I am not suggesting we go knocking on the gates of the Vatican and asking for our Jesus back. But we should be historians, at least, of our own wisdom. We need that wisdom today, but then when do we not?
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Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped
Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.Matthew 14
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; -
Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped
Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.Matthew 14
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him;In greek worship simply means to kiss someones feet or hand not the same worship as in english. Different CULTURES, if you blew someone a kiss they considered that a worship. Nice try
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What difference does it make. Just leave God's business to God. Stick to the MUHKAMAAT & leave the MUTASHABIHAAT to Him alone. He Explains them if He Deems rightful to do so in due time. Just summit yourself to God alone and study The Qur'an carefully and on a regular basis and follow It's straight forward verses and try to be a righteous constructive well intended Muslim. Start with what is possible and available. Start small, but start moving. Do not sit and just blabber mouth. Our tongue is going to be responsible in Judgment too. With salaam, Khalil.
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John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Did you catch verse John1033? Eyewitnesses are telling us that Jesus is claiming to be GOD!!
Acts 759
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."An apostle praying to Jesus, as if Jesus were GOD!?!
John 20
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus did not say no Thomas I am not GOD!!