Salaat includes kneeling and bowing
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Ahmad Bilal,
Where did you get this conclusion? What about all the Quranic passages specifically mentioning "bowing and prostrating" when it comes to observing the salaat?
What do you mean by bowing and prostrating? Speak from Quran Is it spiritual or ritual ? Think and answer.
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What do you mean by bowing and prostrating? Speak from Quran Is it spiritual or ritual ? Think and answer.
"Think and answer"?! The scriptures specifically mention "alrakaa" and "alsujood", meaning the physical bowing and prostrating. Where does the Quran imply that we should by "spiritually bowing and prostrating"? How do you spiritually bow and prostrate to something or someone? 4829 even says that the believers are SEEN bowing and prostrating; so how is this not a physical act? Can you VISUALLY SEE someone "spiritually" bowing and prostrating? Is this logical?
I recommend people reading past discussions on "sujud" and "rakaa" etc.
e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0amongst others.
Thanks for posting these links, but these still don't show the rationality of "spiritual/mental" bowing and prostrating. All of the acts of worship (also called "rituals" in the Quran) are PHYSICAL ACTS. This includes observance of the salaat. The reasoning that the descriptions of "rakaa wa sujood" are the same concepts as "hear and obey" is completely unquranic, and the scriptures don't support this ideology at all...
He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." (4213)
Do the previous scriptures mention the ancient believers "spiritually" bowing and prostrating, or were they performing literal, physical acts of worship?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Wakas,
I recommend gathering the strongest evidence you have for your view on this and either posting it in a thread or perhaps an article.
I will then be happy to review it when I have time.
Okay, that sounds like a good idea. Thanks...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad,
The scripture means the Book containing the words of God; each word contains in it His wisdom to which if you apply your mind and understand them in your human knowledge and start writing them using your language skill shall consume seven seas as ink and the trees of the whole worlds as pens. Bearing this in mind, think and understand various possibilities of its usage in life and now write down the myriad applications to the word ' al rakaa ' and ' al sujud.' Will you do this?
"Think and answer"?! The scriptures specifically mention "alrakaa" and "alsujood", meaning the physical bowing and prostrating. Where does the Quran imply that we should by "spiritually bowing and prostrating"? How do you spiritually bow and prostrate to something or someone? 4829 even says that the believers are SEEN bowing and prostrating; so how is this not a physical act? Can you VISUALLY SEE someone "spiritually" bowing and prostrating? Is this logical?
The word spiritual is the common terminology used by all people without knowing the meaning of it. This is why you had asked such a question. I will ask you this question to have an answer from you. Why do you bow? Why do you prostrate? What are the meanings of the two? And in what situation or under what different conditions the two acts shall have to be specifically performed? If you answer this then you will know how to actualize the visionary.
Peace,
.
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Peace Drfazl,
The scripture means the Book containing the words of God; each word contains in it His wisdom to which if you apply your mind and understand them in your human knowledge and start writing them using your language skill shall consume seven seas as ink and the trees of the whole worlds as pens. Bearing this in mind, think and understand various possibilities of its usage in life and now write down the myriad applications to the word ' al rakaa ' and ' al sujud.' Will you do this?
I understand your usage of the words, but it doesn't change the scripts in the reading. It clearly mentions literal "rakaa" and "sujood", which is physical bowing and prostrating. If Allah simply wanted to say "hear and obey", that's what He would've said, just like He said in the other Quranic passages.
The word spiritual is the common terminology used by all people without knowing the meaning of it. This is why you had asked such a question. I will ask you this question to have an answer from you. Why do you bow? Why do you prostrate? What are the meanings of the two? And in what situation or under what different conditions the two acts shall have to be specifically performed? If you answer this then you will know how to actualize the visionary.
Well, I understand the meaning of the word "spiritual", and we should perform spiritual bowing and prostrating. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't perform PHYSICAL bowing and prostrating. They are a pair, while you're replacing one with the other... Saying we should perform a physical bowing and prostrating in our salaat observance is just like saying we should be taking a physical fast/abstanation; rather, it should be "spiritual". Not only is this incorrect, but it's illogical, since the scriptures tell us explicitly to physically abstain from certain things during this period... All forms of salaat are BOTH spiritual and physical, unless you believe in a spiritual recitation of the quran, a spiritual ablution, a spiritual standing, etc., and I'm sure this probably isn't the case. You're basing the logic of the Quran on your INTERPRETATION, even though the words are clearly outlining what is to be said and done.
Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative. (3529-30)
In believing that the salaat is not physical, you are also implying that all of these actions are spiritual and not physical; and based on this passage and it's context, this is obviously not the case... Where in the Quran is the salaat regarded as NON-PHYSICAL?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
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Peace Drfazl,
I understand your usage of the words, but it doesn't change the scripts in the reading. It clearly mentions literal "rakaa" and "sujood", which is physical bowing and prostrating. If Allah simply wanted to say "hear and obey", that's what He would've said, just like He said in the other Quranic passages.
Well, I understand the meaning of the word "spiritual", and we should perform spiritual bowing and prostrating. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't perform PHYSICAL bowing and prostrating. They are a pair, while you're replacing one with the other... Saying we should perform a physical bowing and prostrating in our salaat observance is just like saying we should be taking a physical fast/abstanation; rather, it should be "spiritual". Not only is this incorrect, but it's illogical, since the scriptures tell us explicitly to physically abstain from certain things during this period... All forms of salaat are BOTH spiritual and physical, unless you believe in a spiritual recitation of the quran, a spiritual ablution, a spiritual standing, etc., and I'm sure this probably isn't the case. You're basing the logic of the Quran on your INTERPRETATION, even though the words are clearly outlining what is to be said and done.
Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative. (3529-30)
In believing that the salaat is not physical, you are also implying that all of these actions are spiritual and not physical; and based on this passage and it's context, this is obviously not the case... Where in the Quran is the salaat regarded as NON-PHYSICAL?
Peace,
Ahmad
To elaborate on what Drfazl has explained in his previous post, the Rakaa and Sujood are definitely physical bowing and prostrating. But there one needs to understand the true meaning of Salaat. Salaat cannot be done through physical actions. The following are the reasons -
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Lack of Concentration ? When we prepare us for the Salat, how many times have you been fully conscious that you are preparing your self to talk to Allah ? I'm sure we lack our concentration 90% of the times
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Is Allah to be present in just one direction - Salaat is performed facing towards kaaba. But dont we know that Allah is Omni present? By performing the physical bowing/prostrating are we not going one step ahead and telling HIM that this is the way to pray?
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3529-30 - Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative.
Lets try to understand this verse carefully -
If you observe Salat - Contact Allah through your prayer for all your needs without associating any one with him
and are charitable both discreetly and openly - only if you are bestowed with open mindedness and generosity to give away the wealth given by Allah then we have Allah's blessings. Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action.
Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?- Assume that we come across a situation of crisis. We are well aware that this situation has aroused because of our own mistakes/sins. Now we have tried all the possible ways to solve it but in vain. Now what do we do?
We submit to Allah, we talk/pray to Allah with utmost politeness, ask for forgiveness and also promise Allah that we will definitely follow which ever is the right path and at this point we realise that he is the Most COGNIZANT .i.e we submit to Allah. Thus if you see we have performed a rukku - politeness and Sujood - submit to him alone who has all the might, THE ALMIGHTY.
May Allah guide all of us.
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peace
also mentioned in quran is certain situations where if we can't perform salat one way we can do it differently (walking, riding horses,... we can shorten it when in danger...)
that all implies that THE METHOD is clearly not important.elsewhere you see clear details about other issues,
inheritance, who to marry, who not to marry, ablution, fasting...
and interestingly there are nlo such details for salat (if we take it to mean prayer).
lets see what could have been said, something like this perhaps 'stand like this, say this, bow, say this, prostrate, say this, sit, say this, stand up and repeat several times'now would it be so hard to add this in the quran? of course not, yet there are no such details described.
and we see people bowing and prostrating physically while their behaviour and lifestyle is completly unquranic, so what does that physical thing do... nothing.
here's one of interesting articles
http//defendingtrueislam.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/salat-connection/ -
Peace,
So, you're saying that salaat IS a physical act? I agree that we should be applying the aspects of our worship, but this doesn't mean salaat is NON-PHYSICAL. We should be doing a spiritual AND physical salaat, and this, in my view, includes bowing and prostrating. I understand your reasoning on the matter, though. I'll have to look more into it... As far as I see for now, bowing and prostrating (rakaa wa sujood) means bowing and prostrating, the actual physical acts. And these acts are a part of observing al-salaat. But again, I'll do some more research on this issue for clarification. Allah knows best...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
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To elaborate on what Drfazl has explained in his previous post, the Rakaa and Sujood are definitely physical bowing and prostrating. But there one needs to understand the true meaning of Salaat. Salaat cannot be done through physical actions. The following are the reasons -
-
Lack of Concentration ? When we prepare us for the Salat, how many times have you been fully conscious that you are preparing your self to talk to Allah ? I'm sure we lack our concentration 90% of the times
-
Is Allah to be present in just one direction - Salaat is performed facing towards kaaba. But dont we know that Allah is Omni present? By performing the physical bowing/prostrating are we not going one step ahead and telling HIM that this is the way to pray?
-
3529-30 - Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative.
Lets try to understand this verse carefully -
If you observe Salat - Contact Allah through your prayer for all your needs without associating any one with him
and are charitable both discreetly and openly - only if you are bestowed with open mindedness and generosity to give away the wealth given by Allah then we have Allah's blessings. Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action.
Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?- Assume that we come across a situation of crisis. We are well aware that this situation has aroused because of our own mistakes/sins. Now we have tried all the possible ways to solve it but in vain. Now what do we do?
We submit to Allah, we talk/pray to Allah with utmost politeness, ask for forgiveness and also promise Allah that we will definitely follow which ever is the right path and at this point we realise that he is the Most COGNIZANT .i.e we submit to Allah. Thus if you see we have performed a rukku - politeness and Sujood - submit to him alone who has all the might, THE ALMIGHTY.
May Allah guide all of us.
Well said Sabina, and it is well appreciative of the values of Quran.
Regards,
.
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great article pcborg, it clearly says what salaat is, and gives a lot of ayats, lol i think just about every verse to do with salaat is on there. When are you going to be finishing the other articles like the quranic society, war and jihad in the quran, and hajj in the quran???
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peace,
why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?
The document discusses timing along with the issue of Qibla etc.. All add to the case that a physical manifestation of salaat is needed. The document is a wholistic approach to the topic.
I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".
Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
If you answer yes, can you please tell us your definitions of the words "logical" and "evidential", thanks.
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peace,
I will respond to the 'arguments' against the physicality of salaat soon...
In case I was not clear, allow me to re-quote myself, in emphasis/bold
why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?
I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".
Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?
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aoa i am new and the reason i got to this website was that i was looking for an answer from someone on salat. I know someone who has studied the quran so much and after 30years of kneeling and bowing he stopped it . the reason being that he says there is no physical form of salat , as salah as he understands is TOTALY subission to Allah , yani everything a muslim does is ibada. now its quite late and i have read a very long article here from someone who has written on the physical act and times and wudoo/tayamam. I can give you all some of his reasons but you will have to wait. sorry . but just leaving a thought when one makes "contact" for(asalah you need to be clean , hence the washing/tayamum. The qibla is an ideology which we all have to follow and basically if we turn to the kaba we are doing idol worship . Some of his reasons, i have read some of yours here. so can one of you please post me the whole points why we DONT have a physical salat , i have read the other arguments ..
mani
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Peace,
I've been doing more and more research on this issue, and the concept of "salaah" according to the Arabs is starting to appear completely contradictory to the reading. As most people on here know, the word "salaah" (or salaat) doesn't mean 'prayer' at all. Rather, it refers to a contact, connection, or commitment. Also, the "qibla" is not a physical place; it's a state of mind, a spiritual focal point that many describe as simply 'monotheism'... I'm still looking into these matters, and God willing, the almighty will guide me to the right path...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam,
I will reply one post at a time as there are numerous illogical statements being made. This one is to wakas.
First point
context is very important to understanding. So for the first point, even though you may find a word having a different or figurative meaning in one place in the Qur'an, does not mean that that is the only meaning it should have. By that logic, because dzarb can mean beat and is used as such in the qur'an, then we must accept that we can beat our wives. No, why? Because of context, so even if for the sake of argument we accept that rukuu' and sujuud (and I don't, ill go into this further later inshallah) mean to hear and obey or something else rediculous like that, that still does not in any way mean that this is the correct meaning when we analyse the salat ayaat.
Second point-
So when I point out that I have sections on qibla and timing in my document, this is not some stupid statement by me, rather it is me telling you that I have explored the context in the document, a context which supports my interpretation. The qibla defining a physical direction for salaah and the timing specifying a specific times for salaah.
So stop being so bloody condascending in your questioning, I m more than capable of understanding your questions.
Third point -
Physicality of salaat and kneeling and bowing are the EXACT same thing. Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
My other responses will answer other and also answer your concerns in more detail inshallah.
salaam
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Peace,
I've been doing more and more research on this issue, and the concept of "salaah" according to the Arabs is starting to appear completely contradictory to the reading. As most people on here know, the word "salaah" (or salaat) doesn't mean 'prayer' at all. Rather, it refers to a contact, connection, or commitment. Also, the "qibla" is not a physical place; it's a state of mind, a spiritual focal point that many describe as simply 'monotheism'... I'm still looking into these matters, and God willing, the almighty will guide me to the right path...
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam ahmad,
Please read my salaat document for answers on the qibla etc issue. Also, it is not arabs who define what salaat is, it is the qur'an. As I point out in my article,
But we must note that for the Arabs at the time of the prophet who worshipped at the Kabah, Salaat was corrupted and empty of meaning, as Allah tells us -
Their prayer (salaatuhum) at the House (Kabah) is nothing but whistling and clapping. So taste the punishment because you disbelieved! (Quran, 835)
So what the arabs believed about this is irrelivant except in so much as it is a demonstration of their error.
