Facts on Circumcision
-
peace AceOfHearts, all,
Re "perfectly/perfected" usage in 327, 2788 verses
Can you provide evidence for your translations?
Also, can you expand/clarify upon why you think 3030 is an "excellent" verse for your position?
Thanks.
Thanks Wakas, though your question on 3330 was not so specific, I will try to give a brief elaboration.
3030 is relevant verse upon a deeper analysis. To a perceptive person, it may seem that is referring to the context immediately surrounding the expression. But then is referring to either or . However, thinking deeper, I think there is a reason to why , a much broader term is used, which collectively includes all of God's creation including the elements in the greater context of the verse.
327 uses which when connected with is to make 'most' good every thing, this renders into 'perfected everything'. 2788 uses which carries the meaning 'to perfect'.
Hope this answers your question. )
-
peace,
However, thinking deeper, I think there is a reason to why , a much broader term is used, which collectively includes all of God's creation including the elements in the greater context of the verse.
So the evidence you have for 3030 supporting your view is you think it implies a greater context? Thinking deeper, let's say that it does as you suggest, mean "there is no changing in God's creation" in the greater context. What do you make of genetically modified foods for example? Clearly this is changing in God's creation, thus is 3030 disproved according to you?
327 uses which when connected with is to make 'most' good every thing, this renders into 'perfected everything'.
I will assume by "this renders into..." means it doesn't really mean that but can be interpreted/embellished to mean 'perfected everything'.
"ahsan" more accurately means "most excellent/beautiful/good", or perhaps "best" but NOT "perfect". There is a big difference between "best" and "perfect".
2788 uses which carries the meaning 'to perfect'.
Evidence? It would be more accurate to say one of its classical Arabic meanings can be "to perfect" but that is not the only meaning. See below.
For those wishing to conduct a more thorough study, please see the following
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmHa-Siin-Nun = To be handsome, make good, seem good/beautiful/comely/pleasing, be excellent, make or render a thing good or goodly, to beautify/embellish/adorn a thing, strive or compete in goodness, to do good or act well, act or behave with goodness or in a pleasing manner towards a person, confer a benefit or benefits upon a person, act graciously with a person, know a thing well, beautify/embellish/adorn oneself, reckon/account/esteem a person to be good/beautiful/pleasing.
hasuna vb. (1)
perf. act. 469, 1831, 2576
n.vb. 283, 314, 3148, 3195, 1329, 1886, 2711, 298, 3352, 3825, 3840, 3849, 4223hasan n.m. (comp. adj. ahsan, husna; pl. hisan)
2138, 2245, 337, 337, 459, 486, 495, 4125, 512, 550, 6152, 7137, 7145, 7180, 817, 952, 9107, 9121, 1026, 113, 117, 1188, 123, 1318, 1662, 1667, 1675, 1696, 1697, 16125, 16125, 1734, 1735, 1753, 17110, 182, 187, 1888, 1973, 1974, 208, 2086, 21101, 2258, 2314, 2396, 2438, 2524, 2533, 2861, 297, 2946, 3321, 358, 37125, 3918, 3923, 3935, 3955, 4133, 4134, 4150, 4616, 4816, 5331, 5570, 5576, 5710, 5711, 5718, 5924, 604, 606, 6417, 672, 7320, 926, 929, 954hasanah n.f. 2201, 2201, 3120, 440, 478, 479, 485, 6160, 795, 7131, 7156, 7168, 950, 11114, 136, 1322, 1630, 1641, 16122, 2570, 2746, 2789, 2854, 2884, 3910, 4134, 4223
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 3172, 593, 6154, 1026, 1223, 12100, 1630, 177, 177, 1830, 2877, 327, 3910, 4064, 5331, 643, 6511
impf. act. 4128, 18104
impv. 2195, 2877
n.vb. 283, 2178, 2229, 436, 462, 6151, 9100, 1690, 1723, 4615, 5560, 5560
pcple. act. 258, 2112, 2195, 2236, 3134, 3148, 4125, 513, 585, 593, 684, 756, 7161, 991, 912011115, 1222, 1236, 1256, 1278, 1290, 16128, 2237, 2814, 2969, 313, 3122, 3329, 3780, 37105, 37110, 37113, 37121, 37131, 3934, 3958, 4612, 5116, 7744
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 206, 207, 208= Ta-Qaf-Nun = To fatten (a land by watering it with muddy water).
Nature, in born disposition, mud.
To improve a thing, set a thing in good order, do a thing skillfully and thoroughly, fasten a thing, bring to perfection, make a thing in perfect consonance with the purpose to which it has been created.atqana vb. (IV) - perf. act. 2788
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, page 346
-
bravo
Not only that, it is clearly prohibited by Allah
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God?s creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
There's a problem with this sort of "logic", because if circumcision is made forbidden by this then so would be cutting ones hair or nails, or wearing make up, or parfume, or trinklets.
What I understand from this verse, is regarding the laws of physics, religion of the god, the final return, that these the god will not change them. It is not refering to a commandment to what humans should do with themselves, apart from monotheism is what they should follow. Monotheism is a guidance. And there will be no change from monotheism.
The last part people don't understand this can be seen with how some atheists or paganists/polytheists believe this world is (cruel and based upon probabilities).
Also, circumcision would have been a signficant issue. The only person of the bible that commanded that circumcision be not needed, was Paul. When historical records state that Jesus was circumcised as a Jew. Surely there would be some record of him saying it was not right to circumcise. But this would have contradicted what Jesus had said regarding who had come for, vs Paul (that he had come for all people which would contradict Muhammad).
Anyone who has studied Paul, would know that he has some questions surrounding his credibility.
Surely also, there would be some record that Muhammad had said that circumcision was not right.
Male circumcision shows signs of good things, female circumcision (FGM in the form of Pharaonic circumcision) as what some people practice for non-medical reasons doesn't show any signs of any good neither support of historical records.
-
There's a problem with this sort of "logic", because if circumcision is made forbidden by this then so would be cutting ones hair or nails, or wearing make up, or parfume, or trinklets.
Peace
Hair and nails will regrow after cutting them, but cutting a part of the genitalia is permenant, i see it as God has created something in the human body, and the creatures decided thats God had made a mistake creating it, so they will correct this mistake.
God said that he gave all the examples in the quran , he didnt mention that for example, zakaria had circumscised yehia, or maryam had circumscided Eissa,..........etc,People do circumscision based on a reliogion beliefs, thinking it is an order from god, where in the quran was it ordered?
-
Thanks.
The only points to which I wish to make comments on is
Food should not be genetically modified by default. However, there are exceptions to this, for instance a food crisis where 'suffering' could be elevated - only for the duration but not to exceed beyond the life originally created by God. This too is the case with circumcision, i.e. a disorder requires circumcision (like any other removal operation due to a disorder).
Thanks for the comments Wakas, I do feel that the translations I have put up are justified at this time of writing.
As already indicated, cutting the hair or nails is not like circumcision. The hair and nails were 'designed' so that it could be cut, it keeps growing and it does not have blood circulation or nerve endings (not flesh). This is unlike that which is cut during circumcision, which has blood-circulation and nerve endings, and developed once in the womb, 'not designed' to be cut.
peace.
-
Food should not be genetically modified by default. However, there are exceptions to this, for instance a food crisis where 'suffering' could be elevated - only for the duration but not to exceed beyond the life originally created by God. This too is the case with circumcision, i.e. a disorder requires circumcision (like any other removal operation due to a disorder).
Is the exception you give above outlined in The Quran?
Thanks for the comments Wakas, I do feel that the translations I have put up are justified at this time of writing.
I consider the parts highlighted as weak at best, and wrong and misleading at worst.
It is especially important to note that the weaknesses highlighted are used in your article as the main evidence underpinning your article, thus by default, the entire article is weak/unproven.
-
Peace
Hair and nails will regrow after cutting them, but cutting a part of the genitalia is permenant, i see it as God has created something in the human body, and the creatures decided thats God had made a mistake creating it, so they will correct this mistake.
God said that he gave all the examples in the quran , he didnt mention that for example, zakaria had circumscised yehia, or maryam had circumscided Eissa,..........etc,People do circumscision based on a reliogion beliefs, thinking it is an order from god, where in the quran was it ordered?
There are also health benefits from circumscision.
But would this opinion also go for piercing?
-
Salaams,
"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem 1(12)"
Let us look to the Koran and ask what it says about circumcision. Very strangely, there is no reference at all to either male or female circumcision. Muslims generally ignore this fact. The word "circumcision" does not exist in the Koran, and this book does not even mention Abraham's circumcision although it does honor Abraham as the first Muslim and the model of the believers.
The only explicit references in the Koran are in two verses -- 288 and 4155 -- which use the term "uncircumcised" in a metaphorical, non-literal sense associated with "hearts" (qulubuna ghulufun), in reference to the Jews. Here are these two verses
And they say Our hearts are wrapped (qulubuna ghulufun). Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe (28.
Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelation of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying Our hearts are wrapped (qulubuna ghulufun). - Nay, but Allah hath put a stamp/imprint upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few (4155).
The term ghulfah means a foreskin or a cover. Muslims translate this expression into English by "our hearts are sealed" or "our hearts are hardened or wrapped". They never understood it as a reference to circumcision.
Instead they started to cut something else off wow
-
There are also health benefits from circumscision.
Would you highlight these benifts.
Does people undergo circumscision cause of these health benifits or cause of religion beliefs?.
This part of skin which is removed is present in the whole offsprings, it is not abnormal to be removed, God created it, so why remove it?
But would this opinion also go for piercing?
I think if this percing is permenant, the same idea would be implied.
but if it can heal with time and return to normal, well, i am not sure confused.
peace
P.S. i would make it clear, that i am not to imply my thoughts or consider it final even to me, i am here to share and discuss opinions, and see other points of view
-
we shouldn't remove the foreskin, unless necessery (if there is no blood flow, then it has to be done)
-
It is especially important to note that the weaknesses highlighted are used in your article as the main evidence underpinning your article, thus by default, the entire article is weak/unproven.
I disagree. Anyone else agree with Wakas?
Interested to hear from someone who knows Arabic well.
-
peace AceOfHearts,
I dont see how knowing Arabic well would help in this case.
"ahsan" is the superlative of "hassan". If "hassan" means "good/beautiful/excellent/fair" in The Quran, which it does, then its superlative means "most good/beautiful/excellent/fair". "perfect" is an entirely different and exaggerated meaning, which has no basis. To prove this, simply find one verse in The Quran which supports this view. I have already listed all occurrences for anyone wishing to study this, so this is not difficult.
Secondly, "atqana" only appears once in The Quran and your cited meaning is only one of the Classical Arabic possibilities, thus unless it can be proven by context/logic, your cited meaning is unproven.
-
peace,
So the evidence you have for 3030 supporting your view is you think it implies a greater context? Thinking deeper, let's say that it does as you suggest, mean "there is no changing in God's creation" in the greater context. What do you make of genetically modified foods for example? Clearly this is changing in God's creation, thus is 3030 disproved according to you?The fact that we have genetically modified foods is even more proof of God's perfect creation. Say for example that we put genetically modified plants and animals into the wild they would have an immense advantage over their predators/prey. This would upset the natural order and balance of nature, one species would have an unfair advantage over the others leading to a breakdown of the food chain.
-
Peace everyone,
This thread is titled "facts" but many here are just conjecturing and basing their opinions on assumptions rather than facts, including twisting God's words as pointed out by Wakas.
Examination of scientific evidence concerning benefits versus risks and harmful effects of circumcision indicates no overall benefit of circumcision. Please read the following
http//www.infocirc.org/facts.htm
-
This thread is titled "facts" but many here are just conjecturing and basing their opinions on assumptions rather than facts
Is God words not considered facts?
including twisting God's words .
I would you rather use the word misunderstanding or misinterpreting, than the the word twisting, it is a big accusation.
Peace.
-
Peace,
Ahsana = perfect is a misunderstanding/misinterpreting and not twisting?
-
Peace,
Ahsana = perfect is a misunderstanding/misinterpreting and not twisting?
Peace
I guess the idea of this forum is to discuss and share points of view.
the memmbers post what he/she thinks it is the best he/she can reach so far, any new understanding would be welcomed without throwing accusation. -
Peace all
Please be aware that God is testing us; He is testing " if we truly believe in the Torah and Injeel as we do with Quran". As you all know, the only religion that is accepted by God is the Humans' Submission to God's Books (all of them).384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?
384385 And whoever follows other than submission as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
385Circumcision of male is in the Bible and the Old Testament; therefore, if you believe in them as you believe in Quran, ones should not disbelieve in the circumcision of male.
I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. . . . I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God. . . . Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep every male among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 176,8,10)
Now, should I reject the above verse from the Torah, and therefore reject the Quranic verse 3-84.
What do you think?
Peace -
Salaam.
In all of Africa,every man is circumcised,no matter which religion he has,or not have.The people into traditional belifs also.In Africa,you are not a man,if you are not circumzised.
It is a custom from the ancient Egyptian god Horus,that say that all humans are born androgyn,and that the female part of the boy(the foreskin)should be taken away.And the masculine from girls(the qlitoris cover) when they were around six seven years old.
The Jews took it with them,when they left Egypt.
