Salaat includes kneeling and bowing
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wakas you are hillarious. If you wish it we can debate one on one for the next week and we will see how you stand in your opinion at the end of it.
Now to your points -
You say -
"I agree and I did not say to the contrary. Let's stick to what I actually said, i.e. the facts."
I am making a logical point which relates to you linking to the thread on the meaning of the words. The point is valid and relates to you. Beyond this this is a logical point that is generally relevant and hence worth making to frame a discussion.
Wakas, don't bother trying to tell me how to answer, you are sorely mistaken if you think you are discussing with someone less intelligent than you. I will answer how I like, and as you will see how I answer is logically and without emotional interpretation of the facts. Something you are clearly incapable of if you think salat is some purely spiritual thing.
You say-
"If my questioning comes across as "condascending" it is because you have not answered them / misunderstand them, despite being asked more than once in clear terms."
I answer questions based upon my timescale and decision, not upon yours. If I answer according to your logic it will be pathetic, so I answer with proper logic, that is, my logic. Furthermore, you cannot dictate the answer, as to do means I must assume your assumptions. I do not.
you say -
""physicality" is a general term including all physical manifestations. "kneeling" and "bowing" are a SPECIFIC physical manifestation. You seem to not understand this simple point."
It seems you want to be spoonfed information. Given the context of my argument which I made clear from the first post, I made clear that salaah involves kneeling and bowing, that is physicality is involved in salaah. I agree that the word is not the most apt, nevertheless you demonstrate that you know what I mean, physical manifestations or actions.
Next, I quote myself -
"Physicality of salaat and kneeling and bowing are the EXACT same thing. Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
If you read this and use your comprehension, you will see that in this is your answer. If you still did not figure out which part here it is -
"Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise."
The challange holds if you accept my explanantion below, if not let me restate it.
If it is accepted that salaah involves physical activity or movement, then the following physical/bodily motions, namely standing, bowing and prostrating (and recitation if you like also) are involved as required element of the salaah based upon their relevant mention in the quran. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Nevertheless if we debate in the week to come we will deal with this in detail.
you say -
"Is using one's voice a physical manifestation/act? A simple yes or no will suffice. A "yes" will disprove your challenge."
Not according to the argument I am making, it is sound manifestation. Don't presume to lecture me on physics either, I am quite aware of the simple physics of sound. The point of my argument, and the context of my challenge relates to physical movement of the body in salaah. Sound, does not fall under this category in the argument i am making. Standing kneeling and bowing as part of salaah are the unique aspects of salaah and define its pysical manifestation by a person. These are therefore what I am referring to. Recitation is not unique to salaah.
I appreciate that this should have been made clearer, this is therefore my deficiency in making my point.
you say -
"Does your research style only extend to reading the first post of a thread and ignoring the rest?"
Does you response style only extend to pointing me to a thread of poorly articulated opinions because you cant make an argument for yourself on this thread?
Also, it is not my job to hunt down what you think to be a good argument from 8 pages of thread. You should extract what is supposedly good from it and present it.
you say
"I would like to point out one thing. In my researching on "salat" I discovered many things that were simply not true that I was taught and thought were true, so I can perfectly understand where you and others are coming from."
Debate with me this week and you will again learn that your knowledge is flawed.
salaam
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I will be preparing an article on the two words, sujuud and rukuu' (and iqama as needed) based upon classical dictionaries ,the Qur'an and logic.
It should be done in the coming week inshallah.
Meanwhile if anyone has a specific argument or point to make, please make it with all the relevant information organised and read to be analysed.
salaam
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peace,
Please refrain from making personal comments. It is not constructive when in a discussion.
Forum rules http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0Does you response style only extend to pointing me to a thread of poorly articulated opinions because you cant make an argument for yourself on this thread?
Also, it is not my job to hunt down what you think to be a good argument from 8 pages of thread. You should extract what is supposedly good from it and present it.The sequence of events is that YOU made a claim first, e.g. salat involves physical bowing and kneeling etc. I asked about the evidence for this claim. You were evasive and never answered. You now say you are going to write an article about "sujuud" and "rukuu", which to me is clearly an indirect admission your existing evidence was not worthy of being cited. This was as I suspected, hence my questioning. Of course, that is not to say there is no evidence.
In any case, I look forward to your article attempting to answer the following questions, re-quoted again, in emphasis/bold
why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?
I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".
Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?
Debate with me this week and you will again learn that your knowledge is flawed.
Being wrong in this life does not bother me.
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Peace,
I understand the ideology that "pcborg" is discussing, especially concerning the qibla. If salaah really is an issue of prayer (literally "contact or connection with God", then it is very plausible that the qibla is a physical direction. This is the same doctrine mentioned in the previous scripture, the Tavrah. The Israelites physically faced the direction of Jerusalem when performing their prayers, and, according to historians, so did the ancient Sabians (who eventually turned to face Mekka). So, it doesn't seem very likely that the "changed qibla" is not a physical direction, since this changes the system of the believers, even after God clearly says that His "sunna" is unchangeable... I'm still considering the concept of "spiritual bowing and prostrating", especially since the other people of the book (Jews, Nazarenes, Sabians) physically bowed and prostrated during their prayers... Like I said, I'm still thoroughly considering this concept. Right now, I still believe in physical prostration during salaat, and God knows best. May He guide us all to the right path, Inshaa Allah...
Peace,
Ahmad
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pcborg,
Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.
Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!
Peace.
.
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pcborg,
1 - Because we are not perfect therefore salaat cannot be physical, that is your point. This is so rediculous as to make any response a waste of time.
2 - Who says that salaah is defining Allah as being in one direction? The qibla is merely a unified direction for salaah, not for Allah. For info on the qibla, check after the response to your 4th point.
3 - Astaghfirullah, you just added words to the qur'an. lets address you main point "Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action. Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?"- That was not at all the point sabina raised.
- If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
- Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!
Peace
.
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pcborg,
May Allh protect us all from such 'logic'... I will respond to your points one by one -
Salaat, which is physical AND mental in nature, has numerous benefits, one of which is -
Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.
?Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer (Salaat); surely prayer (Salaat) keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.? (Qur?an, 2945)
Recite means 'Re-citing' with inferences and references from the ayats bringing to mind repeatedly to strengthen your resolve for steadfastness in your rehearsal in the straight path that which has been revealed to you, when in your deep meditation and pondering prayerfully, over the ayats of Allah that has been sent down upon your heart. Allah's command is this "Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind!" This is all the prayer and recital is all about and the core meaning of (Qur?an, 2945).
Peace,
.
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pcborg,
And remember -
"I am God; there is no other god beside Me; you shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salaat (Prayers) to remember ME." (Qur?an, 2014)Can you recite "I am God!"?
Can you understand, recite and rehearse in your life this 'three words' ayat?
When did you see the God? Did you have the verification from Allah direct to know Him at least by one attribute of His?
Have you followed Ibrahim in this regard?
Did Allah not describe to you that Ibrahim did get verification from Allah that He was the Creator, through his prayerful seeking?And you know Muhammad also had to follow Ibrahim and those who believe in Allah. Unless you get the first hand Evidence of Allah, from Allah Himself by His Leave, there is no way you shall be assured of the real God and you will be able to stay clear of the gods beside Him. With this alone you will be steadfast in your belief and follow Him alone, which in human language is termed as worshiping. Due to such truthful worshiping, the Most Benevolent rewards you with ample recompense and also makes you remember Him with gratitude all the time for the Grace He has showered upon you. This gratitude of remembering Him results in strengthening one's ever growing belief and wisdom. You must remember that every ayat you recite must finally improve and increase your belief. This is the end of the prayer; the fruits of reciting; the liveliness of rehearsing. Start your discussion! Here is the ayat for your remembrance
And whenever a chapter is revealed, there are some of them who say Which of you has it strengthened in faith? Then as for those who believe, it strengthens them in faith and they rejoice.
And with this alone every single PRAYER should end!
Peace.
.
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pcborg,
4 - rukuu = politeness and sujuud submission... Is this 'pull whatever meaning for a word that you want' day?! I will deal with the meanings of these two words in a later post inshallah.
In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?
Peace,
.
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pcborg,
In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?
Peace,
Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...
So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.
salaam
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pcborg,
Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.
Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.
salaam,
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pcborg,
- That was not at all the point sabina raised.
- If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
- Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!
Peace
.
- It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
- The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
- Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.
salaam,
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peace,
Please refrain from making personal comments. It is not constructive when in a discussion.
Forum rules http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0The sequence of events is that YOU made a claim first, e.g. salat involves physical bowing and kneeling etc. I asked about the evidence for this claim. You were evasive and never answered. You now say you are going to write an article about "sujuud" and "rukuu", which to me is clearly an indirect admission your existing evidence was not worthy of being cited. This was as I suspected, hence my questioning. Of course, that is not to say there is no evidence.
In any case, I look forward to your article attempting to answer the following questions, re-quoted again, in emphasis/bold
Being wrong in this life does not bother me.
The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.
My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.
salaam
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pcborg,
Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.
Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!
Peace.
.
The context is not a situational context. Rather the context is the Qur'an itself. If you desire to interpret words without proper care to the qur'anic context, then you may as well discard the qur'an as guidance. It has become a Ouija Board to tap into your opinions.
salaam,
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The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.
My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.
salaam
Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.
Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D
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Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.
Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D
I can promise that it will be detailed... However I can not promise that even you will understand it ;D.
salaam
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Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...
So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.
salaam
pcborg,
Please cite the ayats that conform to your above reply that I have underlined. And the words I had highlighted speaks against your methodology of Quranic approach.
Peace,
.
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Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.
salaam,
Marwanpcborg,
Take your own time. I pray for Patience!
Peace,
.
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- It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
- The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
- Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.
salaam,
Marwanpcborg,
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The logic is an approach towards understanding the Truth; and the approach is highly individualistic. The end result whether they arrive at the Truth or not is the matter for concern. What is the Truth? Belief in Allah must be strengthened through the logic they follow; and you are not The One who shall assess the Iman of another.
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I think you are not clear to yourself in your answer to the second point; you are bringing in the support of the practice in vogue. I think the contrary to what you have mentioned may be the truth.
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Each of every creation in the heavens and on the earth knows its individual way of salaat; even a bee knows into which hole in the honey comb it must enter and when it shall come out and upon what flowers it must rest and feed upon; and you can see the birds doing salaat spreading its wings - once you it spread its wings it is on the move in all directions wherever Allah guides each of them and we see them in flocks and in pairs and in singles. So salaat is your obedience to Allah's commands in every walk of life as per the doctrines enshrined in the Quran and ordained upon us. It is the Guidance in life!
I will wait in patience and take your time.
Peace,
.
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Peace Pcborg,
I read your entire article on salaat, and I found it very good and consistent. Overall, the only factor that I disagreed with was your description of the "Friday prayer" - I interpreted "yawmi aljumaat" to refer to the day of assembly (or time of meeting), not necessarily falling on Friday, but being any day in which submitters gather together in worship... Other than this, though, I think your article on this subject is very good and extremely informative, and it's based on the reading. May Allah guide us all to the truth on this matter...
Peace,
Ahmad
