All Mighty God?
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Peace "Jonny_K",
JK- Im sorry to say that your still stuck with this faulty logic of T. Aquinas. This statement is as false as saying that "GOD can make a rock which He Himself cannot lift". I dont even call cause and effect a law. Rather it's a LOGICAL NECESSITY and as i explained GOD will inevitably be there by accepting infinite cause and effect and He or any ultimate Being wont be there at all if it is not accepted sice no cause and effect by definition means NOTHING.
This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.
You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Accidental post.
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Peace "Jonny_K",
This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.
You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.
Peace,
Ahmad
Ahmad Bilal, I'm amazed that I have finally found a post of yours that I agree with!
bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
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Peace "Ahmad Bilal",
Peace "Jonny_K",
This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.
JK- Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of the amount of changes in posiiton of an object with respect to another. Hence if there is no time THERE IS NOTHING. If there is something then time is automatically there because something can only be there if it is moving/vibrating at some level or the other. This is plain logic. Hence GOD did not create time in an absolute sense. Actually time isnt even something to be created. It is always there just not necessarily in the form we know it. As for GOD having always existed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE BUT your explanation is not. Ive made this very clear. the statement "GOD is not limited by time" does not make any sense. What do you want to say by that? Time in the absolute sense is not somehting to be created but a measurement. However relatively since there can be time dilation we can say that the time of this particular universe is differen than another ones implying that the cause and effect relationship is different. But if there is no time at all then that place is EMPTY, NOTHINGNESS. Are you saying GOD is, GOD forbid, nothing???!!
You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- Listen bro this is an absolutely irrational argument because int eh same way Hindus can say that their gods surpass all our rational concepts so how could you prove them wrong? This is no argument at all especially when theres a very logical explanation at hand which does not degrade GOD in the least whilst at the same time proving His existence. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Jonny_K",
JK- Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of the amount of changes in posiiton of an object with respect to another. Hence if there is no time THERE IS NOTHING. If there is something then time is automatically there because something can only be there if it is moving/vibrating at some level or the other. This is plain logic. Hence GOD did not create time in an absolute sense. Actually time isnt even something to be created. It is always there just not necessarily in the form we know it. As for GOD having always existed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE BUT your explanation is not. Ive made this very clear. the statement "GOD is not limited by time" does not make any sense. What do you want to say by that? Time in the absolute sense is not somehting to be created but a measurement. However relatively since there can be time dilation we can say that the time of this particular universe is differen than another ones implying that the cause and effect relationship is different. But if there is no time at all then that place is EMPTY, NOTHINGNESS. Are you saying GOD is, GOD forbid, nothing???!!
Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation. Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...
The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...
JK- Listen bro this is an absolutely irrational argument because int eh same way Hindus can say that their gods surpass all our rational concepts so how could you prove them wrong? This is no argument at all especially when theres a very logical explanation at hand which does not degrade GOD in the least whilst at the same time proving His existence.
You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace "ahmad bilal",
Peace "Jonny_K",
Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation.
JK- Since when are we talking about before GOD? 2ndly time is not an object. It is a measurement or an attribute formed by particles in motion i.e. no motion, no time, nothing.
Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...
JK- Your now creating a fanatasy. This does not prove or show anything. GOD does not have an end because theres an infinite amount of energy from which He sustains Himself i.e Light upon Light. Heres an excellent explanation from the Quran itself
GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people. GOD is fully aware of all things.The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...
JK- The 50,000 verse your talking about is talking about a totally different period i.e. the time it takes the "mnalaaikah" to reach heaven.
The malaaikah, with their reports, climb to Him in a day that equals fifty thousand years.
The Quran says that a day of GOD's is equal to a thousand years of ours not fifty thousand. Theres no mention of infinity there. Your making this up.
And for the last time GOD HAS DOMINACE OVER EVERTYHING. We as a human can have linited control over time too e.g. flying in plane which causdes a very small time dilation of a few ms relative to the ppl on the ground. Same would the case be if we travelled at 99.99999% of light speed. Then those inside tht aircraft wld age slower than the outsiders and in tht way we could manipulate time. Doesnt mean we need to be "out of time" which is illogical. GOD created everything BUT ETERNAL LIGHT which He is Himself as per the Quran.You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- Making GOD subject to time is a non issue. It doesnt mean anything since time is a logical necessity for something to be there. And GOD has always been there because as I said an infinite amount of cause and effect have already taken place before the creation of our universe so that necessitates GOD having lways existed so wht is your problem? Neither is GOD hindered by anything but your way of explaining this is nonsensible. How does saying that theres cause and effect and hence time when only GOD was there makes Him limited in any way? He can do anything at any place anytime so what is the point? GOD Bless!
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Peace "Jonny_K",
JK- Since when are we talking about before GOD? 2ndly time is not an object. It is a measurement or an attribute formed by particles in motion i.e. no motion, no time, nothing.
This entire idea is about God, and again, you're limiting Him to time and existence... You're saying no time, no motion, nothing equals "no God"?! This is idolatrous! You can't use a definative unit of measurement to describe an almighty, eternal being. This is not logical.
JK- Your now creating a fanatasy. This does not prove or show anything. GOD does not have an end because theres an infinite amount of energy from which He sustains Himself i.e Light upon Light. Heres an excellent explanation from the Quran itself
GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people. GOD is fully aware of all things.Okay...? How long has this "light upon light" existed? Light is subject to time and space. According to the theory or relativity, light moves at approximately 186,283 miles per second, and this PHYSICAL OBJECT is the fastest systematic relation known to humanity... So, do you believe that God can't move faster than light? Does God need motion and vibration to survive? Saying so is making Him subject to these factors, and that's polytheistic and blasphemous... It's not hard to realize that this passage was not speaking about literal "light"; it's speaking about an unlimited force and power. Matter and energy, according to physics, can be converted, but it can't be created or destroyed. So, if this is true, is God really the "creator", or is He simply the "converter"?
The bottom line is there was a period when matter and energy DID NOT EXIST, and during this period, which was before the existence of time and space, a system of complete nothingness and nonexistence, there was still the one almighty god who formed the particles that started vibrating, eventually becoming matter and energy, which developed the objects of time and space. Therefore, science in relation to the infinite being (Allah) is wrong, and you can't use finite factors to measure an infinite, absolutely eternal being. It's not possible. It's like asking the mythological question, "How old is God?"
JK- The 50,000 verse your talking about is talking about a totally different period i.e. the time it takes the "mnalaaikah" to reach heaven.
The malaaikah, with their reports, climb to Him in a day that equals fifty thousand years.
The Quran says that a day of GOD's is equal to a thousand years of ours not fifty thousand. Theres no mention of infinity there. Your making this up.
And for the last time GOD HAS DOMINACE OVER EVERTYHING. We as a human can have linited control over time too e.g. flying in plane which causdes a very small time dilation of a few ms relative to the ppl on the ground. Same would the case be if we travelled at 99.99999% of light speed. Then those inside tht aircraft wld age slower than the outsiders and in tht way we could manipulate time. Doesnt mean we need to be "out of time" which is illogical. GOD created everything BUT ETERNAL LIGHT which He is Himself as per the Quran.It still uses the word "day" to describe these 50,000 years. So, yes, this is still a description of this period of time with God... Also, that Quranic passage says that God is the "light" of the HEAVENS and the EARTH. Therefore, claiming that this light is not created is the same as saying that the heavens and the earth are uncreated, which is FALSE. God created everything.
JK- Making GOD subject to time is a non issue. It doesnt mean anything since time is a logical necessity for something to be there. And GOD has always been there because as I said an infinite amount of cause and effect have already taken place before the creation of our universe so that necessitates GOD having lways existed so wht is your problem? Neither is GOD hindered by anything but your way of explaining this is nonsensible. How does saying that theres cause and effect and hence time when only GOD was there makes Him limited in any way? He can do anything at any place anytime so what is the point?
This is a contradiction, since you just said that time is a "logical necessity" for existence. Obviously, God is present, and He is not subjected to time. God's existence is not based on cause and effect, and saying so is basing something on the existence of God, in a sense saying that something or someone created Him... Like I said, God is not the result of anything, but He is the cause of everything.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace "Jonny_K",
Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation. Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...
The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...
You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...
Peace,
Ahmad
I absolutely agree with you.
bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo -
JK- If you doubt perpetual motion exists then there must be an infinite amount of energy out there. Furthermore virtual particles only suddenly popup because we cannot examine the exact cause till now. That by no means means hat they actually popout of nothing because if particles can just popout of nothing then what hinders them to do so an infinite no of times thus causing infinite intervention and not allowing anything to exist.
JK- Yes but space, forces etc is all particles just some cannot be defined yet. It's all cause and effect otherwise it's nothing. Since we know space is something it must be made out of particles and ofcourse theres a cause for every effect.
JK- One thing i can say for sure that EVERY EFFECT MUST HAVE A CAUSE AD INFINTUM or else offer a logical explanation around this taking into consideration that this would also mean that GOD can create a rock which He himself cannot lift. Makes no sense!!!
JK- MAN THIS MAKES NO SENSE! Bro your arguments are becoming ridiculous now. If this is true then GOD can also turn into a man and all anthropomorphic religions could claim to be right. This is exactly the point why i say trinity is wrong because the Infinite Being cannot turn Himself into a Finite Being. It is logically impossible. For the last time with your type of argumentaion everyone on this forum is absolutely right. theres no point of having anymore discussion.
JK- Im talking about GOD resulting out of an infinite no of random fluctuations which have lasted over an infinite period of "time" in the quantum realm before anything was created by Him by differentiating the quantum particles into matter as in our universe.
JK- No but logic dictates that as ive mentioned and since the Quran doesnt negate this so it is true. If GOD has unlimited knowledge Hed use it endlessly. Doesnt make sense that Hed only create a limited amount of creatures.
JK- Yes and what ive explaiend is the best explanation possible by the use of logic and thts as close as wed ever get. Im not denying tht. Anyone can try and challenge my statements. lets see how logical thtd get.
JK- I mean since ive already said tht GOD creating an infinite no of beings wld be only reasonable to assume since He has Infinite knowledge each one of those has a seprate universe after a certain pt so tht there cant be an infinite amount of disturbance as an infinite set of intelligent beings play out against another.
JK- No that is what i assume it to mean and im allowed to do so as are you. However to say that this 7 heavens refers to the absolute amount of universes seems ludicrous to me as ive mentioned before and it will not convince most rational minds.
JK- It doesnt say not either so the pt must be approached using thinking outside the Quran.
JK- Yes the Quran does say tht GOD's system NEVER CHANGES. This is very clear to me and many others especially bro Arnold whos written articles on this numerous times. Once again if GOD changed His own laws any time how on earth would we ever know it's the same god and not another god?. How wld we know that theres only one god? Think, this is only possible if the laws are the same throughout the universe.
JK- Strings are quantum fluctuations. You can divide each quantum fwave/particle and get a smaller/lesser energetic uantum particle/wave ad infintum too.
JK- I never claimed to understand completely GOD or His creation. You dont get it. There are howver some points which are logical and hence must be so like cause and effect for example or 1+1 being 2. THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE VERY DEFINITIONS OF THE TERMS. If you say there might be a place where theres no cause and effect then you have to explain such a hypothetical area and not just say "eerything is possible". I told you already that if there is something then by definition there is cause and effect otherwise there is nothing. plain and simple. GOD Bless!
I would like to continue this debate in a chat room. What time zone do you live in?
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Peace "Jonny_K",
This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.
You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.
Peace,
Ahmad
Maybe its just me, but so far Ahmad Bilal makes the most logical arguement against the paradox. sun
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Maybe its just me, but so far Ahmad Bilal makes the most logical arguement against the paradox. sun
I think so too. Ahmad has done very well on this topic.
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I agree with "Jonny_K" here,
time is a measurement developed by humans to measure the passage of motion. It's not something physical or "real" in the sense that it exists independant of human thought and imagination or that it can be manipulated.Actually it is something real. You learned this on the first day of your life. You can take away all the calendars, time measuring systems, and languages in the world, and guess what? You still have time; there is an order in which things occur. If there wasn't, then you could say that time doesn't exist and of course everything would happen at once. However, this universe has time.
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peace Jk
Can you please explain a bit more on what you meant by (Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". )
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Peace "ahmed bilal",
Sorry for the late replyPeace "Jonny_K",
This entire idea is about God, and again, you're limiting Him to time and existence... You're saying no time, no motion, nothing equals "no God"?! This is idolatrous! You can't use a definative unit of measurement to describe an almighty, eternal being. This is not logical.
JK- This is very logical and if it is not please explain your "logic" behind your claim.
Okay...? How long has this "light upon light" existed? Light is subject to time and space. According to the theory or relativity, light moves at approximately 186,283 miles per second, and this PHYSICAL OBJECT is the fastest systematic relation known to humanity... So, do you believe that God can't move faster than light? Does God need motion and vibration to survive? Saying so is making Him subject to these factors, and that's polytheistic and blasphemous... It's not hard to realize that this passage was not speaking about literal "light"; it's speaking about an unlimited force and power. Matter and energy, according to physics, can be converted, but it can't be created or destroyed. So, if this is true, is God really the "creator", or is He simply the "converter"?
JK- 1st the very first phrase DOES SAY literal light. It is only after tht phrase it begins to talk abt "mathal" i.e. allegory. Coincidence? And energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only shift form and one of its forms are the elementary particles our universe is made of. No. 2 the speed of light is only limited in our universe because of it's laws which also differentiated out of light. If another universe with different laws were to be created/differentiated out of electromagnetism/quantum flux it's own speed in there would be different and so on. So yes if the laws of this universe were to remain unaltered then the max speed is tht of light. It's the same as asking "can GOD fill a jar with more particles, in the same universe, than it's dimensions can hold?" Doesnt make any sense.
The bottom line is there was a period when matter and energy DID NOT EXIST, and during this period, which was before the existence of time and space, a system of complete nothingness and nonexistence, there was still the one almighty god who formed the particles that started vibrating, eventually becoming matter and energy, which developed the objects of time and space. Therefore, science in relation to the infinite being (Allah) is wrong, and you can't use finite factors to measure an infinite, absolutely eternal being. It's not possible. It's like asking the mythological question, "How old is God?"
JK- There was no time when energy did not exist. Energy exists by DEFINITION when ever there is something otherwise there is nothing. Your making stuff up now. Oh and btw in this regard may you please answer this qs "Can GOD create a rock that he cannot Himself lift?" If He cannot youd claim im saying Hes not omnipotent. On the other hand if He can then again He would from that point on not be omnipotent either. The same goes for the rest of your arguments above. think abt it.
It still uses the word "day" to describe these 50,000 years. So, yes, this is still a description of this period of time with God... Also, that Quranic passage says that God is the "light" of the HEAVENS and the EARTH. Therefore, claiming that this light is not created is the same as saying that the heavens and the earth are uncreated, which is FALSE. God created everything.
JK- Man day in Arabic means any "period" or even "stage" not necessarily 24 hr day. Or are you saying that GOD created the heavens and earth in 6 24 hr days or 6GOD daysx1000yrs of ours=6000 yrs?? regarding the creation of light it depends whether you mean the original Light out of which everything differentiated or the light again derived from elementary particles. The latter is created light. The first is not.
This is a contradiction, since you just said that time is a "logical necessity" for existence. Obviously, God is present, and He is not subjected to time. God's existence is not based on cause and effect, and saying so is basing something on the existence of God, in a sense saying that something or someone created Him... Like I said, God is not the result of anything, but He is the cause of everything.
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- the very phrase "subjected to time" does not make any sense. Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of change in relative position. So whenever something is moving or processing or creating theres time. GOD Bless!
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Peace "diem",
I agree with "Jonny_K" here,
time is a measurement developed by humans to measure the passage of motion. It's not something physical or "real" in the sense that it exists independant of human thought and imagination or that it can be manipulated.JK- Exactly but most ppl dont seem to get this. GOD Bless!
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Peace "nimnimak",
peace Jk
Can you please explain a bit more on what you meant by (Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". )
JK- Sure what i meant is that from all our present knowledge we know that Light is the fastest so the First Intelligence "evolved" before anything else existed. Now if we imaginary went back infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm all quantae were randomly distributed. Through an infinite no of chance processes then the Infinite power came to be Who left nothing more upto chance. HOWEVER it should be noted that since an Infinite no of time has thus passed GOD can be claimed to have always existed and there is no contradicton whatsoever. infact it solves all paradoxes and maes the existence of GOD not only possible but causally INEVITABLE as ive mentioned many times before. GOD Bless!
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Peace "BT",
Sorry for the late reply.Actually it is something real. You learned this on the first day of your life. You can take away all the calendars, time measuring systems, and languages in the world, and guess what? You still have time; there is an order in which things occur. If there wasn't, then you could say that time doesn't exist and of course everything would happen at once. However, this universe has time.
JK- Time is a measurement of change in relative position and yes it is real. Nobody is saying it is imaginary but it is a measurement not a thing. regarding order there can be ordered time and non ordered time. Nobody is disputing that but the latter would still be time. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Jonny_K",
JK- This is very logical and if it is not please explain your "logic" behind your claim.
Your statement implies that God is limited by space and time, physical constants. If this is the case (which it isn't), then God is universally subject to these factors. So, where exactly is God? How old is He? These questions CAN'T be answered because God is not subject to these external forces, and therefore, He is all places at all times. Simple.
JK- 1st the very first phrase DOES SAY literal light. It is only after tht phrase it begins to talk abt "mathal" i.e. allegory. Coincidence? And energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only shift form and one of its forms are the elementary particles our universe is made of. No. 2 the speed of light is only limited in our universe because of it's laws which also differentiated out of light. If another universe with different laws were to be created/differentiated out of electromagnetism/quantum flux it's own speed in there would be different and so on. So yes if the laws of this universe were to remain unaltered then the max speed is tht of light. It's the same as asking "can GOD fill a jar with more particles, in the same universe, than it's dimensions can hold?" Doesnt make any sense.
Your implication is unreasonable. According to physics, energy (by definition) can't be created or destroyed; it can only be converted into other forms of energy, such as material substances and particles... Now, realistically, this is CONTRARY to the central belief of monotheism. How is God the creator of everything in existence if He didn't create matter and energy? Doesn't this make these eternal forces "gods" just like Him?! Everything in existence had a beginning at some distinct point in time, everything except God. Not limiting the concept of speed as being relative to light, there's a huge difference in measuring the speed (time) of light and the "speed" of God. In our universe, light is the fastest known thing in existence. So, does this mean that God can't travel faster than the speed of light?! Again, you're placing limitations on His degree of supremacy. He's not limited to any of these factors, and He can manipulate them as He wills.
JK- There was no time when energy did not exist. Energy exists by DEFINITION when ever there is something otherwise there is nothing. Your making stuff up now. Oh and btw in this regard may you please answer this qs "Can GOD create a rock that he cannot Himself lift?" If He cannot youd claim im saying Hes not omnipotent. On the other hand if He can then again He would from that point on not be omnipotent either. The same goes for the rest of your arguments above. think abt it.
This is a completely different concept, and you're making things up now. This is not a paradox, this is a divine reality. Energy exists when there is something, by the finite scientific perspective. So, you're saying that energy is just as old, or older, than God Himself?! This is idolatrous! Based on the scriptures, by the way that He reveals Himself, God is more than just external energy; so, by your conclusion, energy is 'greater than or equal to' the almighty god... I don't know what you think of this, but it doesn't sound very "monotheistic" to me... By definition, God is the ultimate creator of everything, which means He also created matter and energy, time and space. If God didn't create matter and energy, then He is subject to them, which means He has a physical body and manifestation, and He can only be in certain places at certain times. This is completely contradictory to the message in the Qur'aan regarding His might and magnitude...
JK- Man day in Arabic means any "period" or even "stage" not necessarily 24 hr day. Or are you saying that GOD created the heavens and earth in 6 24 hr days or 6GOD daysx1000yrs of ours=6000 yrs?? regarding the creation of light it depends whether you mean the original Light out of which everything differentiated or the light again derived from elementary particles. The latter is created light. The first is not.
Where's your proof of this?! The Qur'aan specifically mentions a period of "six days". Now, does this mean six 24-hour days? Possibly. We don't know. HOW LONG IS A DAY? To us, a day is a 24-hour period where the earth travels the complete distance around the sun. God, though, doesn't live on the earth, and He doesn't measure His timeline by the rotation of our planet and our sun. So, to Him, one day could be a nearly immeasurable period of time; it could range from 24-hours to a million (or more) of our solar years. If it was (hypothetically) based on the distance of our planet and our sun, GUESS WHAT! God is in complete control of our planet and our universe, and He therefore controls the measurement of a day, a month, a year, and so on. These are all relative factors that can be manipulated by Him, by His own will.
JK- the very phrase "subjected to time" does not make any sense. Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of change in relative position. So whenever something is moving or processing or creating theres time.
Your statement contradicts itself. Time is a measurement, and a measurement is an object. Therefore, time is an object, period. You're applying a finite scientific description to an infinite object or being. This is completely illogical... You're implying that God is a certain definate age. So, how old is He? When is His birthdate? Who were His parents?! These are unreasonable questions, and they can't be answered with a scientific description... If time exists as long as an object is moving, processing, or "creating", then what was there BEFORE God created the heavens and the earth? In other words, before the period known as "in the beginning", was there time?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam everyone,
Hey guys,
I'm a muslim that has discovered your site and the "God Only" movement and I'v learned a lot of new things and been able to make my faith stronger. I have a question that I'v been thinking about for a while,If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?
My goodness it's a long thread. What a tough question!
God knows when and how the world is going to end. He controls everything, knows the past and future. He aslo says that if it were not for His mercy, all creatures in the heavens and the earth would already be in Hell. Is it possible that His Mercy is so infinite that our written destiny can change during this world, purely out of His infinite Grace? He is almighty, is it possible that He simply left part of our lives still to be written, even though the end and some landmarks are already cast in stone?
I am really scared to even ask such a question, the truth is He alone knows.4522 GOD created the heavens and the earth for a specific purpose, in order to pay each soul for whatever it earned, without the least injustice.
One other thing I would like to say is that for sure hell is not eternal and everyone down the line will go to heaven because God said that even the guilty will pass through "the neddle's eye" (probably a black hole) and hell will end
740 Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.If God says the camel will pass through the needle's eye, it will happen.
I mention this to illustrate that in my opinion, God's mercy is absolutely infinite. He wants us so much to go to heaven, and he delayed hell so much for us.
I will end this post by saying that one quality of a Muslim is to submit totally amd unconditionnally. We don't always have a definite answer for everything. It should never distract us to be God's servants, seeking His infinite Mercy.God bless you.
Pierre