Help with Quranic Word!
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Thanks brother
This is a case of word, . If the preposition, is added. It looses its first Alif and becomes, what you have cited above. However, in the word in question there appear to be three consonants. First one has teshdeed, suggestive of a doubling of consonant, followed by another one with Jezm.
Badar
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Thanks again. No it is not the same First Lam in Lilrahamani (it is read as Lirrahamani) has no teshdeed, hence first lam is alone. Second lam is written but has no vowel, hence not pronounced, only written. Howerver, in example I have cited the first consonant has a teshdeed. It implies doubling of consonant. If it is lam, it is double Lam. It is followed by another consonant with jezm. Question is, it can not be a third lam. Other alphabet that can appear similar to lam in cursive could be Alif. So question remains what is the meaning of this? Thanks for trying. Majority seem not even bothered about the issue, like most other issue facing us.
Badar
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So Sis, your are implying that there is a mistake in Quran? How do we reconcile this? I am mean, where is the Gold strandard for print of Quran, that one can look up to for comparison? Thanks.
Badar
Not a mistake in the qur'aan. If this was really printed this way, it's the mistake of whoever put this shadda. Practically, one cannot pronounce an initial letter with a shadda. The shadda is actually two similar letters assimilated where the first one is not followed by a short vowel (has a sukuun). Putting a shadda on an initial letter means the first assimilated one has a sukuun. Arabic does not support an initial letter with a sukuun, hence nor with a shadda. This is why Arabs in general have a problem pronouncing names like "Smith" without inserting a short vowel before the "S", such as pronouncing it as "iSmith".
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Salam Sisiter,
There seems to be some confusion. The issue is not that some print of Quran has the first word with shadda. His problem appears to be about shadda on at these places
{Refer 1057}
Other places are1577;1782; 2430; 2777; 2944; 453;4820;Except at one place 2420 the preceding word has the Nunnation. Waiting for enlightning response. Thanks.
What I could understand is that "Lil" is +definite article . When enters as "for him, them" the gets omitted and also gets assimilated by any of the following sun consonants, therefore has no sign on it like . With the following moon consonant the is pronounced, therefore has a symbol of on it.
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Not a mistake in the qur'aan. If this was really printed this way, it's the mistake of whoever put this shadda. Practically, one cannot pronounce an initial letter with a shadda. The shadda is actually two similar letters assimilated where the first one is not followed by a short vowel (has a sukuun). Putting a shadda on an initial letter means the first assimilated one has a sukuun. Arabic does not support an initial letter with a sukuun, hence nor with a shadda. This is why Arabs in general have a problem pronouncing names like "Smith" without inserting a short vowel before the "S", such as pronouncing it as "iSmith".
Sis, how have you come to this conclusion marked in red? Shadda has nothing to do with Sukkun or Harkat. If you see the example word there is a Kesra, on the alphabet, in addtion to a shadda- which according to my understanding only implies doubling of corresponding consonant. Although, it became a Fetha, when I coppied. Hence, argument that first letter has no Harkat and therefore shadda equates to sukkun does not appear valid. So please consider this. In addtion use of shadda at the begin of word is not limited to this word only. Therefore, the argument of this being a printing error is not valid either. Mazhar has given some instances and so can I. In addition there are other words in Alkitab that start similarly.
Thanks for trying and participating in the discussion.
Your brother in Islam.
Badar
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Hence, argument that first letter has no Harkat and therefore shadda equates to sukkun does not appear valid. So please consider this. In addtion use of shadda at the begin of word is not limited to this word only.
The confusion is because of not differentiating between "first letter" as Samia said, and "beginning of word". First letter means first letter of a sentence.
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Salam Sisiter,
There seems to be some confusion. The issue is not that some print of Quran has the first word with shadda. His problem appears to be about shadda on at these places
{Refer 1057}
Other places are1577;1782; 2430; 2777; 2944; 453;4820;This serves for pronunciation, not grammar. It's another way of assimilation "idghaam " and has nothing to do with arabic as a language or the understnding of the qur'aan. This is when assimilating the nunnation in the previous word with some specific initial letters of the following word. In such a case, the sound of the nuun (which has sukuun) in the nuunation disappears (gets assimilated) warahmatal lilmu'mineen .
Sis, how have you come to this conclusion marked in red? Shadda has nothing to do with Sukkun or Harkat. If you see the example word there is a Kesra, on the alphabet, in addtion to a shadda- which according to my understanding only implies doubling of corresponding consonant.
Your brother in Islam.Badar
Shadda is all about sukuun and haraka. It also serves in assimilating the lam of the definite article (which has sukuun) with the sun letters. The fatha or kasra you see under the shadda, or the damma above, are the original short vowels of the second letter. Case of the pronunciation resulting from the assimilation of the definite article with some "sun" letters
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Thanks Sis again. Could you please post a break down of high lighted part of word in question as to best of your understanding.
Badar
I hope I understood your request ;D
(The alif of the definite article is removed according to the rules of Arabic)
=
This is a breakdown for the pronunciation, although it'swritten , just like the alif of the definite article it's written but not pronounced if preceded by even one letter.
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Thanks Sis again. What appears to me that this high lighted part, is so to say is certain words, in modren term zipped together. Please just try to only break it down in the order you understand the alphabets are written with corresponding vowels. This will help us all to determine, what comes out?
Badar
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Dear Brother and sister
A very mind opening discussion seen here.
Please correct me if I am wrong. What I understood from the replies and from the grammar book, is as follows
Shadda means the consonant in question is repeated twice.
In some places we see the similar word with a shadda on the initial letter and in some places without shadda. This hopefully should not be just a typing error in the holy book and should not have been done only for the purpose of correct pronunciation. Could it therefore represent additional consonant with an additional meaning conveyed there, such asLi and La or is it Lil??
If it is meant to be Li and La in some places could it mean that we need to understand it as Li = Let and La = not in that particular instance.
If there is no shadda, then it could be Lil and the meaning would be as elaboraed by other learned individuals in the post.What we probably need to do is to separate out places where it is with Shadda and where it is without shadda. We then need to check if meaning is more appropriate saying "Let not" as the translation where there is shadda ( assuming it is Li-La) and the other meaning in places where there is no shadda ( assuming it is Lil )
May be picture will become more clear if we use this method in understaning the complete concept presented in that particular Ayat in question.If this is correct as above, this will open up a newer understanding in script writing tecniques utilised by the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (S)
Please forgive me if I am wrong. But this is very very interesting.
Regards
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Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.
22, 266,3138, 546, 2148, 2434, 6948
Where as 3133, 1149, 2574, 2690, 2830, 3830, 4345, 5031, 6834.
Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.
The first one with a shadda means First alphabet is with shadda and kesra and followed by with jezm. Hence, note with understanding that Shadda implies doubling or repeatating of corresponding consonant, logical order should be and and combined together as .
Where as in second combination it is with a kesra and which then combined become
Badar
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Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.
22, 266,3138, 546, 2148, 2434, 6948
Where as 3133, 1149, 2574, 2690, 2830, 3830, 4345, 5031, 6834.
Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.
Look at the words precedig and you will find that they all end with a nunnation, whereas the words preceding do not. This is the only differencec and explains what I posted earlier regarding rules of assimilation concerning pronunciation only.
You can check the same for " " or any other word starting with a ) 5 5, 56 , 323 (This last verse has a a word with an initial letter similar to the last letter of the preceding word ا -
Thanks, Sis. Then the rule you have cited does not apply in case under discussion. , this and other examples you have cited are example of what is called euphonic teshdeed. It is a case of Shamsi letters. In this situation preceeding consonant does not have a vowel. Another classic and well know example, similar to yours cited above that you have equated to , is use of . In these cases tesdeed is used to avoid harsness of sound of vowelless consonant that preceed teshdeed. It assimilates preceeding voweless consonant with the following consonant. Just like in . However, in our Qur'anic structure under discussion, this is not the case. We just agreed upon that tenwin is a vowel. Hence, the tesdeed on can not be just euphonic- like you are suggesting, because in all cases it is preceeded by vowel tenwin.
Just one example 6948Please read this issue in William Wright's Book vol.1 pages 13-16.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf
With lots of respect and very humbly, your brother in Islam.
Badar