Virgin Birth of Isa
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What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki?
The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
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The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
Thanks for the reply
Then I have undersood you well. Would you now let's/me understand how this meaning fits in verse 425? -
Peace,
The Reading clearly mentions God's laws regarding human reproduction. Adam was shaped by God, and all other humans are Adam's descendants, born from the joining of a man and a woman. Jesus was no different, and he was a man, just like other men, born of a mother and father. And since God's way ("sunna" is unchangeable (4823), we can presume that He didn't make an exception with Jesus... The virgin birth doctrine is a concept inherited through Christianity, paganism, and superstition. These same people allege Jesus' divinity, a concept that is completely rejected in the Reading...
Also, the scriptures identify Jesus as the "mashiach"/messiah/annointed one. According to Jewish law, the mashiach was granted the throne of King David through the lineage of his FATHER, not his mother. So, if Jesus had no father, he couldn't possibly be the foretold Jewish messiah, and this conflicts with the Reading, which specifically refers to him by this title... Two of the many stipulations of the maschiach according to Jewish doctrine included being born of TWO PARENTS (a father and a mother) and his traceable lineage through his FATHER to the bloodline of King Solomon. Do you deny that Jesus was the messiah? If not, he had to have had a human father.
Peace,
Ahmad
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There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we don?t find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.
Forefathers of Dawud, Sulaiman, Ayub, Yousaf, Musa and Haroon is mentioned in verse 684, they were the posterity of Ibrahim. Salam upon all them.
O
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Perhaps does not mean fathers of them all. It means some from forefathers, and perhaps also refers to fathers and grandfathers of one's mother. When Syeda Maryam after the birth of Easa alahissalam comes back to her people with a child in her lap, she was addressed by people who knew her, new her father, mother, brother but they were not aware of any person who could be referredd as husband.
If it was known to people of her time that she had a husband what was so funny in it to come back with a child in lap that they should use such words? A married woman is addressed by her husband's name. They did know nothing about her husband and people after hundreds of years are so sure that she had a husband. Many people like to live with illusions.
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Peace,
We have been through these discussions a hundred times so at the moment I am not interested to start them again. But to the last arguments. Few people who try to discuss Jesus's story have really taken the effort to study 1st century Jewish theology. You ask why would they be surprised that she had a child? She is family of Aaron. In Jewish theology this means you are part of the Levi. A Messiah could only come from the David line according to their dogma. It seems they controlled the marriages and bloodlines. Mary probably married a person that wasn't royalty, for a royal family that is a disgrace. The word baghiyya contains this meaning, to go over the boundaries of custom.
The Christian records are corrupt Roman propaganda writings, so these cannot be trusted. And these even mention Jesus's father as Joseph. The Jewish Talmud written a century after Jesus wrote nonsense stories about Jesus and Mary as an attack against Christians, they didn't care about what the real story was.
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Peace all,
I want to make something very clear. According to Jewish Law, Jesus is NOT the mesiah whether he is born of a virgin or not for a hundred other reasons. Second, Jesus never claimed to be the messiah. Paul did. Third, the Jewish Messiah is a political Messiah not a spiritual one and should be anointed using olive oil. Fourth, the characteristics of the Jewish Messhiah is impossible to materialize eg. death will be abolished!?, there will be no wars....yeah right thats why the temple was levelled after Jesus died D. Fifth, the idea of a Jewish Messiah is actually a late political polemic written during the babylonian captivity to encourage Jews to build a Persian outpost in Palestine as a response to the Egyptians, thats why the Messiah must be a descendant of David(because babylonian Jews were fascinated by David- they actually elevate David like Sunnis elevate Mohammed). Sixth, the Quran contains numerous legends that can easily go under 'superstition'' and 'paganism'. According to the Torah, the Quran and the NT are complete falsehoods because they fail the criteria of a true prophet and a true Messiah(though impossible and false according to the Sadducees but accepted by the Pharisees which mean Persian- agents of the Persian Zoroastrian empire, thats why they believe in the afterlife and a universal God like Ahura Mazda and thats why they forged the Noahide Laws to hide the fact that the Book of Moses is actually a Monolatrous Henothiestic Polythiestic Book).
NB Did you know that there are many Messiahs in the OT eg. Cyrus.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace Rami,
So, are you implying that the Reading ("Quran" is a forgery? Do you believe it is divinely inspired, or is it a book completely written and inspired by a man?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Arnold,
Few people who try to discuss Jesus's story have really taken the effort to study 1st century Jewish theology. You ask why would they be surprised that she had a child? She is family of Aaron. In Jewish theology this means you are part of the Levi. A Messiah could only come from the David line according to their dogma. It seems they controlled the marriages and bloodlines. Mary probably married a person that wasn't royalty, for a royal family that is a disgrace. The word baghiyya contains this meaning, to go over the boundaries of custom.
You are exactly right. According to the ideology, Maryam married someone outside of the Levitical tribe, which was "unorthodox" in Levite traditions, especially in the Nazarene sect. The Nazarene sect actually controlled the bloodlines, and the Levite women dedicated to the temple were forbidden from marrying outside of their group. Since Joseph, the husband of Maryam, came from the line of David and Solomon, his marriage to Maryam was looked down upon, and Maryam broke the traditional custom... And yes, the "mashiach"/messiah could only come through the Davidic line, through King Solomon, and this lineage was based on the ancestry of the FATHER, not the mother. The Reading calls Esa (Jesus) the messiah on several occasions (i.e. 345), confirming the idea that he is the actual mashiach to the Jews. Therefore, this also implies that he fulfilled all the messianic stipulations, especially in terms of geneology, teachings, and practice...
Maryam belonged to a "royal" lineage, and she was expected to marry someone from the Levite tribe, not the Davidic line. That's why her family said that she had done something 'unexpected' (1927), instead of stoning her for committing adultery, which was forbidden according to Jewish law. They knew she didn't commit adultery. The Reading also gives an instance where God speaks to Jesus regarding His signs bestown upon him
GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, 'This is obviously magic.'" (5110)
Why didn't God mention anything about the 'virgin birth' here?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Rami,
So, are you implying that the Reading ("Quran" is a forgery? Do you believe it is divinely inspired, or is it a book completely written and inspired by a man?
Peace,
Ahmad
I believe the Quran is divinely inspired but the Bible a forgery. You can't have it both ways D.
GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, 'This is obviously magic.'" (5110)
Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
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Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
God both guides and misguides. There are several prophets mentioned in the scriptures, and their fathers are not many times not identified. So, this doesn't prove anything at all... Also, in the Biblical account, Jesus is depicted as a son of Joseph. Therefore, if Joseph died during Jesus' childhood, your point would also be irrelevant... The Reading doesn't say specifically that Jesus was literally conceived by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it clearly defines the reproductive process of all humans (children of Adam). Therefore, claiming that Jesus wasn't formed by this same process is an allegation that Jesus wasn't a man, which supports the Christian doctrine that he is the literal son of God. Is this what you're saying?
There are Gospel accounts that also confirm this ideology, such as the Gospel of the Ebionites. The belief that Jesus didn't have a human father is a doctrine of Christianity alleged in the Biblical account. So, if you believe the Bible is forged, then why do you believe in this concept? None of the other scriptures support this ideology at all, not the Qur'an, Tavrah, Injeel, Zabur, or anything else. The only book that does is the Bible, which you already said is a forgery... Just because the Reading doesn't say specifically who Jesus' father was doesn't mean he didn't have one. It also never says the name of Abraham's mother - does this mean he was somehow divinely produced by his father? In fact, it doesn't mention the name of Abraham's wife either (who the Bible identifies as Sarah, and also Hagar), even though it's pretty reasonable to assume that Ishmail and Isaac had a mother (or mothers). The name of Adam's wife (who the Bible calls Eve) is not even recorded in the Reading...
The scriptures also mention that Jesus is no more of a messenger than the other messengers (575), and a view of this is the realization that he was just as human as all other human messengers. This means he was conceived just like any other human, by the unification of a man and a woman.
Peace,
Ahmad
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God both guides and misguides. There are several prophets mentioned in the scriptures, and their fathers are not many times not identified. So, this doesn't prove anything at all... Also, in the Biblical account, Jesus is depicted as a son of Joseph. Therefore, if Joseph died during Jesus' childhood, your point would also be irrelevant... The Reading doesn't say specifically that Jesus was literally conceived by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it clearly defines the reproductive process of all humans (children of Adam). Therefore, claiming that Jesus wasn't formed by this same process is an allegation that Jesus wasn't a man, which supports the Christian doctrine that he is the literal son of God. Is this what you're saying?
There are Gospel accounts that also confirm this ideology, such as the Gospel of the Ebionites. The belief that Jesus didn't have a human father is a doctrine of Christianity alleged in the Biblical account. So, if you believe the Bible is forged, then why do you believe in this concept? None of the other scriptures support this ideology at all, not the Qur'an, Tavrah, Injeel, Zabur, or anything else. The only book that does is the Bible, which you already said is a forgery... Just because the Reading doesn't say specifically who Jesus' father was doesn't mean he didn't have one. It also never says the name of Abraham's mother - does this mean he was somehow divinely produced by his father? In fact, it doesn't mention the name of Abraham's wife either (who the Bible identifies as Sarah, and also Hagar), even though it's pretty reasonable to assume that Ishmail and Isaac had a mother (or mothers). The name of Adam's wife (who the Bible calls Eve) is not even recorded in the Reading...
The scriptures also mention that Jesus is no more of a messenger than the other messengers (575), and a view of this is the realization that he was just as human as all other human messengers. This means he was conceived just like any other human, by the unification of a man and a woman.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
peace
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Peace,
If Jesus was the Jewish mashiach, and if he was actually born of a 'virgin' woman, then there should be an account of it in the Tavrah, right? For example, the Tavrah outlines all of the factors and stipulations regarding the position of the mashiach and what he will do... Since Jesus is called "almasih" (the messiah) in the Reading, then he would have had to fulfill these stipulations, one of which is born of the union between a man and a woman. If he didn't do this, then he can't be the messiah, plain and simple. There's no mention in the Tavrah at all regarding the mashiach being born of a 'virgin' woman.
Now, based on the scripture, was the 'entire world' sent a messiah? NO. The mashiach was sent specifically to the Jews, the children of Israel. They were awaiting his arrival, and they had plenty of prophecies in place predicting his coming. So, why didn't any of the Jewish scriptures predict a virgin birth? Why do they enforce the strict doctrine that he would come from the lineage of King David (through Solomon) by way of his FATHER? Why isn't Maryam called a 'virgin' in the Reading? A key factor of this is the Christian deification of Jesus, which they justify with the alleged 'virgin birth'. However, the Reading clearly denounces the divinity of Jesus. So, if Jesus is not divine, then what was the significance of the virgin birth? What purpose did it serve? Why isn't it mentioned in the scriptures (other than the Biblical New Testament Gospels)?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Rather, it clearly defines the reproductive process of all humans (children of Adam).
Adam is human and his parents are?
PIf Jesus was the Jewish mashiach, and if he was actually born of a 'virgin' woman, then there should be an account of it in the Tavrah, right?
Tavrah is what, Quran?
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Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit Amen.
Why did Aaron address his brother Moses as "son of my mother"? Moses father was never mentioned, nor was it at all mentioned that he had a father.
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Which means that God only mentions those who play a role. What was the role of his parents so as to be mentioned? They were just "bashars".
I disagree there are parents with conscious knowledge
231 And He taught Adam the names, all of them
Also, if they are, would be exempt
1761-63
And when We said to the angels "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Satan/Iblis, he said "Do I prostrate to who you created (from) mud/clay?"
He said "Did I show You, that which you honored on me, If, You delayed me, to the Resurrection Day, I will possess their descendants except few."
He said "Go so who followed you from them, so that Hell (is) your reimbursement, a reimbursement completed/abundant.3660 ?children of Adam do not worship the devil?
Peace
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Peace,
Regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah
Isaiah 126 "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 126) >(
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 24) ignore
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 211-17) brickwall
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 111) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 228-10, 2 Chronicles 71 hmm
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 112) hail
He will come from Bethlehem (Micah 52) bravo
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 114) yay
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 119) hmm
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 1110) )
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 1112) group
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25 rotfl
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25 rotfl
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 2619) voodoo
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 5111) angel
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 527) angel
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 5213-535) >D
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 823) confused
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 1655) nope
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 399) brickwall
The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40) rotfl
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 3133) rotfl
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 374) whatever
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 513, Amos 913-15, Ezekiel 3629-30, Isaiah 116-9) angelNo Comment.
Regarding the Virgin Birth, consider this verse
336 So when she delivered she said My Lord, I have delivered a female, and God knows better of what she delivered, And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil.
Could Mary be an abnormal female? hermaphrodite?
Peace,
Rami