Help with Quranic Word!
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Thanks Sis again. Could you please post a break down of high lighted part of word in question as to best of your understanding.
Badar
I hope I understood your request ;D
(The alif of the definite article is removed according to the rules of Arabic)
=
This is a breakdown for the pronunciation, although it'swritten , just like the alif of the definite article it's written but not pronounced if preceded by even one letter.
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Thanks Sis again. What appears to me that this high lighted part, is so to say is certain words, in modren term zipped together. Please just try to only break it down in the order you understand the alphabets are written with corresponding vowels. This will help us all to determine, what comes out?
Badar
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Dear Brother and sister
A very mind opening discussion seen here.
Please correct me if I am wrong. What I understood from the replies and from the grammar book, is as follows
Shadda means the consonant in question is repeated twice.
In some places we see the similar word with a shadda on the initial letter and in some places without shadda. This hopefully should not be just a typing error in the holy book and should not have been done only for the purpose of correct pronunciation. Could it therefore represent additional consonant with an additional meaning conveyed there, such asLi and La or is it Lil??
If it is meant to be Li and La in some places could it mean that we need to understand it as Li = Let and La = not in that particular instance.
If there is no shadda, then it could be Lil and the meaning would be as elaboraed by other learned individuals in the post.What we probably need to do is to separate out places where it is with Shadda and where it is without shadda. We then need to check if meaning is more appropriate saying "Let not" as the translation where there is shadda ( assuming it is Li-La) and the other meaning in places where there is no shadda ( assuming it is Lil )
May be picture will become more clear if we use this method in understaning the complete concept presented in that particular Ayat in question.If this is correct as above, this will open up a newer understanding in script writing tecniques utilised by the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (S)
Please forgive me if I am wrong. But this is very very interesting.
Regards
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Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.
22, 266,3138, 546, 2148, 2434, 6948
Where as 3133, 1149, 2574, 2690, 2830, 3830, 4345, 5031, 6834.
Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.
The first one with a shadda means First alphabet is with shadda and kesra and followed by with jezm. Hence, note with understanding that Shadda implies doubling or repeatating of corresponding consonant, logical order should be and and combined together as .
Where as in second combination it is with a kesra and which then combined become
Badar
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Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.
22, 266,3138, 546, 2148, 2434, 6948
Where as 3133, 1149, 2574, 2690, 2830, 3830, 4345, 5031, 6834.
Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.
Look at the words precedig and you will find that they all end with a nunnation, whereas the words preceding do not. This is the only differencec and explains what I posted earlier regarding rules of assimilation concerning pronunciation only.
You can check the same for " " or any other word starting with a ) 5 5, 56 , 323 (This last verse has a a word with an initial letter similar to the last letter of the preceding word ا -
Thanks, Sis. Then the rule you have cited does not apply in case under discussion. , this and other examples you have cited are example of what is called euphonic teshdeed. It is a case of Shamsi letters. In this situation preceeding consonant does not have a vowel. Another classic and well know example, similar to yours cited above that you have equated to , is use of . In these cases tesdeed is used to avoid harsness of sound of vowelless consonant that preceed teshdeed. It assimilates preceeding voweless consonant with the following consonant. Just like in . However, in our Qur'anic structure under discussion, this is not the case. We just agreed upon that tenwin is a vowel. Hence, the tesdeed on can not be just euphonic- like you are suggesting, because in all cases it is preceeded by vowel tenwin.
Just one example 6948Please read this issue in William Wright's Book vol.1 pages 13-16.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf
With lots of respect and very humbly, your brother in Islam.
Badar
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Thanks, Sis. Then the rule you have cited does not apply in case under discussion. , this and other examples you have cited are example of what is called euphonic teshdeed. It is a case of Shamsi letters.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdfShamsi letters work with the definite article. It's one part of assimilation, together with double similar letters (or phonemes) where the first has a sukuun. These two examples work within the one wrod. Another kind of assimilation works accross two words, one of them is , where two similar letters where the first one has a sukuun but exists as the final letter of the preceding word (part two of the first kind)
First kind (within the same word)
1- Case of shamsi letters
2- Two similar letters where the first has a sukuun
3- Two phonemes where the first has a sukuun, such IDDala3a where the is actually an assimilation of the original and the of the pttern of form VIII put in the form = =
Second kind (accros two adjacent words)1- Two similar letters where the first is the final letter of the first word and is in sukuun, and the second is the initial letter of the followig word.
2- When the first letter of the second word is and the final letter of the preceding word carries a nunnation.Second kind where two different words are assimilated in one word
Mostly case of prepositions where two phonemes are in two different adjacent words. such as the case of + +
(You may even find other kinds, but these are what I can think of for now).
(phoneme two letters who share all the characteristics except for one, and thus have different sounds. In some situations when the different characteristic is abolished, they have a similar sound. Example the m and the b, who only differ in that one is nazal (m) and the other is explosive (b). When one has cold and their nose is blocked, they pronounce the m as b. In case of assimilation in Arabic, one of the letter assimilates the other and changes its sound to its own, with a shadda)
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Sis thanks for detailed answer. I think we are heading in the correct direction. I am in the prcocess of a move. In another 45 minutes I shall be embarking on a 1000 mile drive. We will continue this very enlightening and learning discusssion, little later, once I seatle down. I really appreciate you patients and cool temper in putting up with an illiterate like me.
Badar
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Sis thanks for detailed answer. I think we are heading in the correct direction. I am in the prcocess of a move. In another 45 minutes I shall be embarking on a 1000 mile drive. We will continue this very enlightening and learning discusssion, little later, once I seatle down. I really appreciate you patients and cool temper in putting up with an illeterate like me.
Badar
You're welcome, and thanks for the kind words. I am a teacher BTW, so the "illiterates" are essential for me and can't complain from them ;D
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A very crucial discussion going on at this site. I feel that the problem with so many disagreements on the meanings and interpretation of Qur'an is because of some deficiency on our part to correctly apply the grammar rules as were utilised by the original writers (Katibeen) of the revelations as dictated by the Prophet (S) at the time of the revelations. In original script, the various vowel signs were not put on, as it was a local language and clearly understood by all. As the Holy Book started to go beyond the bounds of the tribe, the locals were concerned that others may not see the words as they are meant to be and hence wrote the books of grammar, explaining the need for fatah, kesrah, Gezm , teshdeed and so on and so forth. The purpose was not just to improve the recitation (as in tajweed), but was to convey the correct words and hence the correct meaning and hence the correct message. We emphasize too much on the Tajweed only for the betterment of recitation, often forgetting that the purpose of the book is to exactly understand the message of God, without any doubts. If we have decoded each and every word with the help of these very vital signs above and below each of the words in the Quran, technically we should have a unified translation, taking away the need for assumptions and explanations utilised by scholars in later times.
We at the present times are at a great advantage point compared to many scholars from the past who had to spend their lifetime just to gather the information, before they could write up the explanations. The internet has revolutionised the accees to all the literature from remote past at the finger tips of all those who may be interested. There are english translations of all great Arabic scholars who had written books on the grammatical and lexical concepts utilised in the writing of the script and the language in general, at the time of the Prophet(S). There are multiple books such as Edward Lanes translation of lexical concepts, William Wrights book of grammar, Palmer book of grammar and other six volume book of grammar by great scholars, which are translations of work done within about the first century Hijra, and written then to preserve the understanding of the writing techniques used by local Arabs of that time and hence the meaning and hence the message. God thus fulfills his promise to save the message not only in the original text but also with these great books of grammar and lexicons which has preserved the original meanings and the writing techniques of the script of Qur'an utilised by the companions.
We should all try to utilise these books of lexicon and grammar and read the concepts of vowel and all other signs as gezm, teshdeed etc again and again. Once we are clear in our minds, we all should join hands and pick each and every word of Qur'an and try to confirm the meaning utilising the above tecnique. I feel that a lot of words in the Holy Book are compound words, joining multiple words and not just one word as may appear by the script tecnique. Thus breaking them down into each of those words will become critical before we can actually understand the meaning. A simple example is Alhamdu Lillah. Here every one will agree that Al is a separate word, although written and zipped together, indicated by a Gezm at the end of Al, meaning of which separately is THE. Alhamdu is therefore not one word, but a compound word made up of more than one word, but written together as it was the writing technique of that time. It is this concept of writing technique and hence decoding and unzipping all words, so to say, in it, is important towards our understanding. This can be clarified with the help of these great translations of previous Arab Lexical and Grammar scholars. Those who are lucky and can read and understand the original lexicon and grammar books from where these translations are done may do so in the original language as they are all available on line. We can then analyze all words and make sure we have done everything in our power to understand the message of our Creator without any doubt and disagreement. Effort at understanding is all we can do. This could be a great project for a dedicated team to join hands and analyze each and every word and see if we can improve our understanding of this timeless message. handshake
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Thanks kn. I am glad you are culminating the understanding and prerequisites of understanding of language fast. This joining of hands is what my call has been about. To revive a langauge that is no more spoken and written by natives is not one man job. We need lots of hands with lots of dedication.
Sis, samia thanks again for your reply. I will get back to issue of Teshdeed later. But let me pick your brain on another issue. Is your understanding about Tenwin, that it is applied over last alphabet of a word or there are any exceptions to this rule? Thanks in advance.
Badar
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Is your understanding about Tenwin, that it is applied over last alphabet of a word or there are any exceptions to this rule? Thanks in advance.
Badar
So far I haven't seen a tanween in the middle of a word. Have you or any one else? If not, then yes, it's a rule.
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Thanks Sis again, this is what I learned so far while learning grammar. But than what would you about this word
Thanks.
Badar
This is an issue of writing not grammar.Here is how grammarians explain it
The pronunciation is a main aspect of the tanween, which is a final nuun with a sukuun. The alif r alif maqsuura (as the above case) do not show any pronunciation for any short vowel, and thus are considered like letters carrying a sukuun. In Arabic you cannot have two consecutive sukuuns, otherwise it would be difficult or rather impossible to pronounce this combination. That's why in these to cases the tanween is conveniently put immediately after the last short vowel which is usually carried on the letter before last. This is merely convenience to make a pronunciation possible.If you make the alif maqsuura an extra alif carrying the tanween, the resulting pronunciation is the same
(both pronounced as "huda"
(both pronounced as hudan)
and is the same also for the word (stick)Here is the grammarians definition of the tanween
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Definition of tanween It's a nuun carrying a sukuun, situated at the end of a word from a pronunciation prespective and not a spelling prespective.