Encounter with a self called religious scholar

[IronSky]

Peace to all,

great response said, keep it up and God willing, they will be the ones to be set free from false dogmas, its them that are confused not us, though none of us have all the answers at least we try to use our minds and reasoning to find the truth,

Kurt

[belH]

Peace;
May God increase your wisdom and knowledge;

Ihe wisdom is Sunnah, which is the real life implementation of the book.

I do not think that stoning to Death has nothing to do with wisdom, rather, it is a clear transgression against God's Law.

"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)" 11114 (This verse is talking about the dawn(fajr) and sunset(isha) prayer, we can discuss this further if you wish).

The above verse speaks about the Sunset Prayer (Majreb), The Night Prayer (Isha) and the Dawn prayer (Fajer).
Therefore, The middle prayer is the Night Prayer (isha), because it falls in between the sunset and Dawn time.

"Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer(Salaat al wusta); and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind). " 2238

Here what God order the prophet in regard the Night prayer

731 O you who are covered with your garments.
732 Stand the night except for a little.
733 Half of it, or a little less than that.
734 Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.

May God Increase the knowledge of those who are truly seeking it.

[Sarat]

Peace,

The best part is how he tries to act like addressing you is a waste of time.

[Wakas]

peace smmirza,

Good reply.

One point though, I recommend re-reviewing the evidence for "middle salat" / "salat al wusta" / 3 daily salat according to The Quran. This topic has been thoroughly discussed in the forum and as far as I'm aware no long term active forum member has this view of ""middle salat" / "salat al wusta" / 3 daily salat".

[anna]

Peace,

The best part is how he tries to act like addressing you is a waste of time.

you caught that to rotfl rotfl rotfl you know what i find funny is the fact that my father is a shiekh as well and i lived around them for many years, the things i can tell you about these mashayikh.....these RELIGIOUS men rotfl rotfl
god that brings back memories

[belH]

"Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer(Salaat al wusta); and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind). " 2238

Peace all
I forgot to post the rest of the verses that show that the Night Prayer is what God emphasized to Uphold in 2-238 (salat elwesta).

736 The time of the night is more effective and better for study.
736

Peace

[Hope]

The wisdom is Sunnah.

Peace

Seems like the religious men did a hard search in the quran for their claimed sunnah and when they failed, they come out with a completerly irrelevant word from the scitrpure claiming it is the sunnah. My opinion so far is the wisdom are some verses in the quran it self according to this vesre
1739 That is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom.

That or here refers to the verses from 23 to 38
Also, i noted that the word wisdom never come in conjunction with the word Quran ( if so it would indicate that it is a separate entity), as a matter of fact it usually comes with the word the book which could mean the mother book. In brief , i think the quran includes the wisdom within.

[smmirza]

Thats funny that you say that because while reading the first link that this guy wanted me to read I found they had delberately translated the work kitaab to shariah so I sent him another email just to point out the error

Peace be unto you,
I started to go through the material you provided and would like to know how you are translating the Quran. Here is a verse you translated
(622)
It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from amongst themselves who rehearses upon them His verses and purifies them and for this he instructs them in shari'ah and in hikmah. (622)
Here are the translations according to three well read commentators of the Quran062.002
YUSUFALI It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,
SHAKIR He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,
I do not see the word shari'ah in any of them and certainly not in the Arabic verse itself. The word kitaab in Arabic means book, same as in Urdu. Here is a relevant verse with the word kitaab in it
22
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah (22) - Yusuf Ali
I am sure you could find this word in other verses. Please explain why you translated the work (kitaab) as shari'ah.
Also, Allah says that the Quran is complete
1689
"..And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy...." 1689 - Yusuf Ali

And that the Quran is detailed
6114
Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." 6114 - Yusuf Ali

12111
"..a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe."12111 - Yusuf Ali

So we should be able to find everything we need for our salvation in the Quran, correct?

I wouldn't hold my breath for an answer. Men deviating other men from the path of God, disgusting.

[Wakas]

A good article on what is "hikma"
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/authority-of-al-quran-by-kashif-ahmed.html

See misconception 11.

[Bigmo]

peace smmirza,

Good reply.

One point though, I recommend re-reviewing the evidence for "middle salat" / "salat al wusta" / 3 daily salat according to The Quran. This topic has been thoroughly discussed in the forum and as far as I'm aware no long term active forum member has this view of ""middle salat" / "salat al wusta" / 3 daily salat".

If they want to pray 5 times then let them. But to say the Koran says that there must be 2 or 3 is simply not true. It is more precise to say the Koran never gave a number or a method of prayer. It mentioned two prayer times but it never said that it must be in those times and those times only.

[Samia]

Peace

Seems like the religious men did a hard search in the quran for their claimed sunnah and when they failed, they come out with a completerly irrelevant word from the scitrpure claiming it is the sunnah. My opinion so far is the wisdom are some verses in the quran it self according to this vesre
1739 That is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom.

That or here refers to the verses from 23 to 38
Also, i noted that the word wisdom never come in conjunction with the word Quran ( if so it would indicate that it is a separate entity), as a matter of fact it usually comes with the word the book which could mean the mother book. In brief , i think the quran includes the wisdom within.

I believe that the first to say that " the wisdom is the sunnah of the prophet" was al-Shafe3i in his book "ar-Risaala The message". He went as far as saying that "and the He (God) did not give this to any one of his creation but to His messenger" (pages 64-79), and in this way he made the hadith and actions of the prophet devine revalation that can abrogate the qur'aan.

[smmirza]

I got an email reply from this guy and is as follows. Seems like an intelligent man so I think I will continue the discussion with him
AA

First of all let me apologize to you for my harsh and arrogant email. I committed a sin by writing such an email and I have no excuse to give and no body to blame except myself. I pray to Allah to forgive me and I resort to his mercy for his mercy and forgiveness is beyond the wildest imagination of any human being.

First, continuing this discussion is a luxury that I can?t afford. I have a lot in my plate. I have to do my share and the shares of the ones who are not working. So I apologize if I withdraw from this debate or if I send a very late reply. Unlike the last email, it is not because of my arrogance this time, but because of the limited time that I have make the best use of. The final conclusion is that let us cooperate in the area that we agree on and forgive each other in the area that we disagree on. Let us not bring these divisive issues at this time because we can?t afford them. We have super major problems to take care of.

However, I can?t resist the temptations of sharing few thoughts with you about this matter as follows
The Koran doesn?t specify how many Rakat is every prayer. It is only in the Sunnah
Your conclusion of three prayers is not correct because there is a compelling evidence to prove five prayers not three. The continuous chain of practice since the time of the Prophet to this generation is a compelling evidence, especially it is a continuous uniform wide area practice by people who don?t know each other and it is impossible for all of them to agree on the same lie or fabrication. The Muslim in the east will pray five time prayers like the one in the west. If there is any deviation or fabrication, then it will never be uniform, such as the prayers in Christianity, or may I say Churchianity
The issue that the Sunnah divides us is not true because of the following
Being divided is a decree from Allah that has no way around. Read (1111. The purpose of Allah?s guidance is to minimize differences and not eliminate them. At least you and me agree on a common denominator versus me and an atheist for example
The Koran itself will divide us. Allah has to kind of text in the Koran (37)
i. One kind is the text written in a perfectly understandable Arabic language that means only one thing and no one can argue about its meaning
ii. The second kind intended by Allah is vague and hard to determine one meaning for. Allah made it in such away as a source of misguidance to the ones who have sickness in their heart as he clearly stated in (37)
The wisdom of division is to protect the truth through the struggle of different divisions of people (2240). Monopoly will always lead to corruption. This is why Allah didn?t allow us a Pope (or Ayatullah) who have a monopoly over understanding Islam. Imagine Ayatullah and his group have monopoly over both religious and political governments. This is the best formula for corruption
According to (415 & 244) you can destroy the life of someone by four eye witnesses. The entire Muslim Omah (not only four) at the time of Imam Bukhari who eye witnessed him testifies to his integrity, photographic memory, intelligence, dedication and innovative techniques. The west also testifies to his innovative techniques for he has invented an innovative method of authentication when the entire world was very poor in literature. He has interviewed every single witness on the chains of narrations and studied their psychology and memory before accepting their testimony. He spent days with them in their homes observing every single little detail of their personality and behavior. He rejected the testimony of someone because he tricked his camel. Some of his narrated articles are narrated by over 40 chains of narrations by people who don?t know each other and it is impossible for all of them to agree on the same fabrication. These are Ahadeeth with compelling authentication that no sane person can ever challenge or reject. His work were reviewed and further confirmed by others and no single article was found to have less than perfect compelling level of authentication. The entire Muslim Omah testifies to his piety, excellence and dedication. He starved himself to do this job for the sake of Allah. You can act for sometimes, but you can never act all the times. No sane person can doubt his integrity or his work. Man we accept history books written by hands that never made Wudu and eyes that has never cried out of fear to Allah and reject Imam Bukhari?s Book. This is totally unacceptable and insane. If we reject Imam Bukhari book, then we should reject every single book of history ever written
When understanding one Ayah or one article of Hadeeth, don?t cut and paste. You must collect all articles and Ayat that speak about the subject and develop a conclusion out of their common denominator. How can you explain the Ayat that Prophet came to teach the book and wisdom (2129, 2151, 3164, 622). If you gather them with the Ayah you mentioned in (1689) along with the common sense fact that the Koran didn?t address many issues addressed in any book of civil and criminal laws then you reach to the common denominator of understanding that the Koran has abstracted every thing and the prophet provided one level of detailing when teaching wisdom and we then use our wisdom and the sources of guidance to further provide the remaining levels of details, sometimes up to the atomic detail that can no more divided into more details such as the tax laws for example. The purpose of the Koran is not to micromanage all details in our life, but to provide us with comprehensive and all inclusive abstracted concepts that can be further translated to unlimited number of detailed implementations for different cultures in different environments at different times. We fill in the gaps first using the Prophet?s wisdom that you want to neglect and then using our human wisdom. Don?t be like the enemies of Allah who cut one Ayah and paste it in the minds of the people through the media to accuse Islam of being a violent religion (and Kill them wherever you find them 2191). Judge by the ENTIRE book not by one Ayah or you will end up with Ayat that will conflict with each other. If you focus on one Ayah and ignore other Ayat in the same book that speak about the same subject, then you may end up in Guantanamo bay with the terrorists who did exactly what are you are doing right now but by focusing on different portion of the Koran and ignoring the rest

I feel these points are satisfactory for an intelligent unbiased researcher who is looking for the truth.

About the law suits in the court of Allah I really intended the risk of law suits for I have absolutely no knowledge of how Allah is going to deal with you and I don?t dare to claim that I know better than him. His forgiveness and mercy is beyond the wildest imagination of any human being but watch for the law suites from people who may consider you to be part of the problem not part of the solution, including myself. They will be mean and will not let you go easy. Remember the rights of Allah versus the rights of the people. You really don?t want to risk it especially that you know now I will be one of them if you don?t quit. I will claim to be right because I am following the main stream and you are wrong because you and the people who share the same thoughts or follow the same methodology (the terrorists) are a small minority but they are one of the big obstacles hindering the main stream from progressing towards sharing the guidance of Allah with others

Salam

[belH]

Peace
Here are my comments on the email

The issue that the Sunnah divides us is not true because of the following
Being divided is a decree from Allah that has no way around. Read (1111.

His is wrong; God did not decree for Humans to be divided, rather, He said that dividing is Shirk (30-32)

Here how the verses can be understood

11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.

11119 Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that He has created them. And the word of your Lord came true ?I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the people together!?
11119

Thus, the believers would not be divided. Please note that God will fill Hell with those who are divided .
Therefore, every proceeding word he wrote is wrong.
I will comment in one more thing

The entire Muslim Omah (not only four) at the time of Imam Bukhari who eye witnessed him testifies to his integrity, photographic memory, intelligence, dedication and innovative techniques. The west also testifies to his innovative techniques for he has invented an innovative method of authentication when the entire world was very poor in literature. He has interviewed every single witness on the chains of narrations and studied their psychology and memory before accepting their testimony. He spent days with them in their homes observing every single little detail of their personality and behavior. He rejected the testimony of someone because he tricked his camel. Some of his narrated articles are narrated by over 40 chains of narrations by people who don?t know each other and it is impossible for all of them to agree on the same fabrication. These are Ahadeeth with compelling authentication that no sane person can ever challenge or reject. His work were reviewed and further confirmed by others and no single article was found to have less than perfect compelling level of authentication. The entire Muslim Omah testifies to his piety, excellence and dedication. He starved himself to do this job for the sake of Allah. You can act for sometimes, but you can never act all the times.

This guy worships Bukari...He is in love with him rotfl

Ask him why He follow a Human being who invented a new thing in Islam;Was the Bukari the first one who wrote the Hadith? Did the prophet do that? Did Abo Bakker, Omer, Osman, and Aly do that? Does He thinks that Bukari is a better person than those before him, including the prophet? Does He thinks that the Bukari is the savior of God's religion?

Can you invite this guy to free mind so he can teach us more about bukari.
Peace

[smmirza]

Hi Guys, here is a draft of the response I typed up. BelH thanks for the comment; i decided to add it to my response if that's fine with you. People feel free to critique my arguments. I need some ridiculous and contradictory hadiths to make my argument stronger. Hopefully someone can help me out there. Have a go at it!

Salam

Peace be unto you,
I appreciate you contunuing the conversation. I understand that you are a busy man as am I. You seem to be receptive to logical and rational arguments and you have good points. I understand how hard it is for you to reject the hadith and sunnah but it is a bitter pill that we must all swallow. We muslims can only be united under the Quran alone. I firmly believe Allah when he says in the Quran that
"..And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy...." 1689
Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." 6114
"..a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe."12111

The above verses are clear and not out of context. For us to argue that we need something more besides the Quran would clearly be challenging God's word. You cite verses 2129,2151,3164 and 622 and say the Prophet came to teach the book and wisdom. Here is another verse; that does not fit your equating of wisdom with sunnah/hadeeth;

When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things. 2231 ...infact the Quran has been referred to as wisdom; here is another verse

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of Allah and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them). 3334

Do the two above verses say anything about the wisdom of prophet Muhammad? Rather it seems to me that the Quran is the book of wisdom! Moreover, the duty of Muhammad was to deliver the Quran and only the Quran.

Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
075.016-019

The last verse does not say "Nay more, it is for Us to explain it to Muhammad"..Muhammad himself is told to follow the Quran...not to try explaining it. I hope these arguments cause you to reflect. We follow Muhammad by following the Quran.

Muhammad himself could not have asked that hadiths be written down since he was a prophet and could not disobey God's command

This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart
69043-46

You say
The issue that the Sunnah divides us is not true because of the following
Being divided is a decree from Allah that has no way around. Read (1111.
Here is the verse 11118 and 11;119
YUSUFALI If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people but they will not cease to dispute.
YUSUFALI Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy and for this did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

"Except those" are referred to in the Quran who are guided. Hence your logic that men cannot be united under truth is false.

You say The purpose of Allah?s guidance is to minimize differences and not eliminate them. Where in the Quran do you find this statement?

As far as the hadiths go. Let me ask you that if Hadiths were so important, why didnt Umar, Abu Bakr , Uthman or Ali have them written down. The Quran was codified in the Uthman codex and standardized. Why wasn't such meticulous care given to the Ahadith if they were so important? Obviously, the rightly guided caliphs had memorized the Quran but they still wrote it down for future generations, why did it take 300 years for Bukhari, Muslim et al to compile these contradictory hadiths? These are hard questions that I did not have an answer to. We cannot let our pride and ego get in the way of searching for the truth. Let me give you some hadiths that are contradictory to each other.....This si but only a sample of the vast multitudes of hadiths that are simply absurd. As far as bukhari, muslim, tirmhdi go..they were not there when prophet muhammad spoke these words...and you were not there either...such things are heresy and Allah warns us in the Quran "Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed the ear, the eye, and the heart each will be questioned." (Surah Bani Isra'il, 1736) " The reason I believe that the Quran is not corrupted is because, God promised to preserve it. Did God make a similar promise for the hadith? I hope these questions will cause you to reflect. i do not claim to have all the answers but i am making an attempt to get to the truth. The sunnah as we follow it, may or may not be what prophet muhammad did. We can never be sure. you mention that there is consistency in the way muslims pray across the world. That is true but all these Muslims learned it from their ancestors who ultimately learned everything from a small group of people in Arabia. The standing, bowing and prostrating are all mentioned in the Quran but there is no such number of rakaah and so it is left up to the individual. We can continue to pray the 24434 format if it pleases us but to say this is what God mandated is going overboard. The quran does not mandate 5 prayers and if it does please show me the relevant verses. You can pray 7 times but again making the 5 prayers compulsory as if they have been sanctioned by God is wrong. God does not mention details about civil and criminal issues because again because he has given us liberty to make decisions. There is a reason he has gifted us with a mind. All the verses I have used to support my arguments are clear verses and can not be disputed.
You say I will claim to be right because I am following the main stream and you are wrong because you and the people who share the same thoughts or follow the same methodology (the terrorists) are a small minority but they are one of the big obstacles hindering the main stream from progressing towards sharing the guidance of Allah with others... Here is what God says about the mainstream
"Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie." 6116
incidentally most of the terrorists follow hadiths to the letter hence them giving up their lives for the magical 72 virgins in heaven according to a hadith.

As far as you accusing me on the day of judgement. I only wish to motivate other Muslims to find the truth out from themselves and break the shackles of the mind that have imprisoned us for so long. In the words of Andrew Jackson "I swear eternal hostility upon the altar of God against the eternal hostility over the mind of men!"
God bless,
Said Mirza

[WayFinder]

As far as the hadiths go. Let me ask you that if Hadiths were so important, why didnt Umar, Abu Bakr , Uthman or Ali have them written down. The Quran was codified in the Uthman codex and standardized. Why wasn't such meticulous care given to the Ahadith if they were so important? Obviously, the rightly guided caliphs had memorized the Quran but they still wrote it down for future generations, why did it take 300 years for Bukhari, Muslim et al to compile these contradictory hadiths?

Salaam brother,

This can be an interesting discussion but if you do not study your subject first, you will soon find yourself swimming in troubling waters... Look the part I highlighted in RED... This is taken from hadith! It is hadith which says that uthman collected and stardized the Quran and so on... Through my personal research, I have found that the Quran was already written and compiled in book form at the time of the messenger himself as he completed his mission...

You are looking for contradictory hadiths... Well, if you take the compilation of the Quran itself, you will find that all these hadiths firstly contradicts the Quran, as it says Quran was compiled by Uthman, some hadiths say Umar... And secondly these hadiths contradicts themselves within... You will find a good thread by Hafeez Kazi on this issue.

So my advice to you is... When you advocate your points, be sure to never ever used stuff which sprouted from hadiths books... Because you will put yourself into more trouble as things goes on... I got a similar problem in the beginning and eventually, they will ask you.. 'From where do you get this information.. it is not in the Quran! You are taking it from hadith...!' and things of the like...

So take care, do not be in a hurry to respond just because you have to respond or win the discussion... The picture is much bigger that this... It is about truth prevailing on falsehood.... So take time, and research your topics well before responding...

Since your guy seem to be a bukhari follower... As to what he is saying.. It seems that all what Bukhari collected went into some tough analysis and examination before being written and admitted in the book, so how does he explain that each year, scholars are still finding fabricated and false hadiths in his book... How come... It is obvious that he was not as meticulous as the guy want us to believe he was...

Hope my advice will benefit you...

Wassalaam

[Bigmo]

Salaam brother,

This can be an interesting discussion but if you do not study your subject first, you will soon find yourself swimming in troubling waters... Look the part I highlighted in RED... This is taken from hadith! It is hadith which says that uthman collected and stardized the Quran and so on... Through my personal research, I have found that the Quran was already written and compiled in book form at the time of the messenger himself as he completed his mission...

You are looking for contradictory hadiths... Well, if you take the compilation of the Quran itself, you will find that all these hadiths firstly contradicts the Quran, as it says Quran was compiled by Uthman, some hadiths say Umar... And secondly these hadiths contradicts themselves within... You will find a good thread by Hafeez Kazi on this issue.

So my advice to you is... When you advocate your points, be sure to never ever used stuff which sprouted from hadiths books... Because you will put yourself into more trouble as things goes on... I got a similar problem in the beginning and eventually, they will ask you.. 'From where do you get this information.. it is not in the Quran! You are taking it from hadith...!' and things of the like...

So take care, do not be in a hurry to respond just because you have to respond or win the discussion... The picture is much bigger that this... It is about truth prevailing on falsehood.... So take time, and research your topics well before responding...

Since your guy seem to be a bukhari follower... As to what he is saying.. It seems that all what Bukhari collected went into some tough analysis and examination before being written and admitted in the book, so how does he explain that each year, scholars are still finding fabricated and false hadiths in his book... How come... It is obvious that he was not as meticulous as the guy want us to believe he was...

Hope my advice will benefit you...

Wassalaam

Its wrong to say the hadiths contradict themselves. The Sunnis can say its not contradiction but abrogation. An earlier ruling was abrogated by a later ruling, like the hadiths that says do not right anything except the Koran they will say this was only regarding the publication of the hadiths but not private collection. The hadith that says we should rely only on the Koran they will say that the Koran itself obligated the Sunnah. The will say that these abrogation ended with the last days of the prophet when the Koran says "I have completed your deen", saying that after that no aborgation is allowed and that the Islamic state has been formulated. This is standard Sunni doctrine. Its aborogation you should focus on, not just the verses of the Koran against each other but also the Koran versus the previous scriptures. The Koran itself has different rulings regarding subjects but we do not believe they contradict each other but we see them as varieties depending on the situation. Justice is dynamic and not static but the principles are static.

[WayFinder]

Its wrong to say the hadiths contradict themselves. The Sunnis can say its not contradiction but abrogation. An earlier ruling was abrogated by a later ruling, like the hadiths that says do not right anything except the Koran they will say this was only regarding the publication of the hadiths but not private collection. The hadith that says we should rely only on the Koran they will say that the Koran itself obligated the Sunnah. The will say that these abrogation ended with the last days of the prophet when the Koran says "I have completed your deen", saying that after that no aborgation is allowed and that the Islamic state has been formulated. This is standard Sunni doctrine. Its aborogation you should focus on, not just the verses of the Koran against each other but also the Koran versus the previous scriptures. The Koran itself has different rulings regarding subjects but we do not believe they contradict each other but we see them as varieties depending on the situation. Justice is dynamic and not static but the principles are static.

Peace Bigmo,

The hadiths I wrote about in my earlier post is with regard to historical reports, and not implementation of islamic laws or detailing of them... Hadiths which report the very same fact/occurance in different ways from one another is forcefully contradictory as they cannot be affected by the abrogation issue... For example, a car accident occured, there is only ONE way which it happened and not multiple ways... Hence 1 person says the car came from right, the other says it came from left while the 3rd one says it came from above... This is not abrogation but contradictory report of a fact...

Hope I made myself clear.
Regards

[Bigmo]

Peace Bigmo,

The hadiths I wrote about in my earlier post is with regard to historical reports, and not implementation of islamic laws or detailing of them... Hadiths which report the very same fact/occurance in different ways from one another is forcefully contradictory as they cannot be affected by the abrogation issue... For example, a car accident occured, there is only ONE way which it happened and not multiple ways... Hence 1 person says the car came from right, the other says it came from left while the 3rd one says it came from above... This is not abrogation but contradictory report of a fact...

Hope I made myself clear.
Regards

The hadith about writing down from the prophet is also historic and not legal. Its what was written down thats legal and not the fact of writing them or not. What I meant is that if you see the arguments presented by Sunnis you will see that they rely on abrogation. If you are talking about different accounts of the same incident, this strenghthens their argument and not weakens them as they will say we can only question the details of this incident but not whether that incident occurred since we have more than one account about that incident. Its kind of like an evolutionary biologist saying there is no debate in science about whether evolution occurred but only what are the mechanism(natural selection) that evolution relied upon. This means that they are not willing to accept any questioning about evolution but just the mechanism. Different incidences actually strengthens their arguments. What you do not know is that these different accounts of the same incident are what Schacht refers to as the common link hadith. They appear as different accounts but their chain usually go back to the same sources. This is made to look like it was not fabricated but just minor details are disputed but the incident occurred because "multiple" sources witnessed it. Many times there was still a witness or two and usually these witnesses are the usual same names. Often later hadith will give a different account to strengthen the validity of that incident. Let me give u an example

A person comes and he says Khlaled's house was on fire.

A person said Khaled's house was on fire, another said Khaled's neighbour's house was on fire.

A person said Khaled and his neighbour's house were on fire.

Now these three hadiths vary, but they strengthen the argument that someone's house was on fire and it was either Khaled, his neighbour or both. We(the Sunnis will say) should not question whether Khaled or his neighbour's house was on fire since we have "multiple accounts" about this. But when you look at the chain of narrators, often you will see these "multipole accounts" go back to the same sources but they spread out after the 3rd or 4th narrator down the line.

[belH]

Hi Guys, here is a draft of the response I typed up. BelH thanks for the comment; i decided to add it to my response if that's fine with you.

Peace

You welcome;
I will be waiting for his reply to your email
Peace

[smmirza]

Salaam,
Thank you guys for all the responses. Here is the email I sent to this guy

Peace be unto you,
I appreciate you contunuing the conversation. I understand that you
are a busy man as am I. You seem to be receptive to logical and
rational arguments and you have good points. I understand how hard it
is for you to reject the hadith and sunnah but it is a bitter pill
that we must all swallow. We muslims can only be united under the
Quran alone. I firmly believe Allah when he says in the Quran that
"..And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a

Guide, a Mercy...." 1689

"Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who
hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." 6114

" A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous(mubeen)
Book." 121

"..a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any
such as believe."12111

The above verses are clear and not out of context. For us to argue
that we need something more besides the Quran would clearly be
challenging God's word. You cite verses 2129,2151,3164 and 622
and say the Prophet came to teach the book and wisdom. Here is
another verse; that does not fit your equating of wisdom with
sunnah/hadeeth
"....and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for
your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well
acquainted with all things. 2231
In the above verse the Quran has been referred to as Wisdom.

Here is another verse

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of
Allah and His Wisdom for Allah understands the finest mysteries and
is well-acquainted (with them). 3334

Do the two above verses say anything about the wisdom of prophet
Muhammad? Rather it seems to me that the Quran is the book of Wisdom!
Moreover, the duty of Muhammad was to deliver the Quran and only the
Quran

Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
075.016-019

In the above verses, Muhammad himself is told to follow the Quran, not
to try explaining it. I hope these arguments cause you to reflect.
We follow Muhammad by following the Quran.
Muhammad himself could not have asked that hadiths be written down
since he was a prophet and could not disobey God's command
This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart
69043-46

You say

The issue that the Sunnah divides us is not true because of the following
Being divided is a decree from Allah that has no way around. Read (1111.

Here is the verse 11118 and 11119
"If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people but
they will not cease to dispute."
"Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy and for this
did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I
will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

"Except those" are referred to in the Quran who are guided. Hence your
logic that men cannot be united under truth is false.

You say The purpose of Allah's guidance is to minimize differences
and not eliminate them. Where in the Quran do you find this
statement?

As far as the hadiths go. Let me ask you that if Hadiths were so
important, why didnt Umar, Abu Bakr , Uthman or Ali have them written
down. Why wasn't such meticulous care given to the Ahadith if they
were so important? Obviously, the rightly guided caliphs had spent a
long time with the prophet but they did not write down his sayings for
future generations, why did it take 300 years for Bukhari, Muslim et
al to compile these contradictory hadiths and attribute them to
prophet Muhammad? These are hard questions that I did not have an
answer to. We cannot let our pride and ego get in the way of
searching for the truth. I will not discuss the ahadiths attributed
to prophet Muhammad because they detract from the greatness of the
prophet Muhammad. You attest to the photographic memory, intelligence
and honesty of Bukhari as if you personally met him. In either case,
Bukhari, Muslim et all were not there when prophet Muhammad spoke the
words they wrote down and you were not there either. Such things are
heresy and Allah warns us in the Quran
"Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed the ear,
the eye, and the heart each will be questioned." (1736)

The reason I believe that the Quran is not corrupted is because, God
promised to preserve it. Did God make a similar promise for the
hadith? I hope these questions will cause you to reflect. i do not
claim to have all the answers but i am making an attempt to get to the
truth. The sunnah as we follow it, may or may not be what prophet
muhammad did. We can never be sure. you mention that there is
consistency in the way muslims pray across the world. That is true
but all these Muslims learned it from their ancestors who ultimately
learned everything from a small group of people in Arabia. The
standing, bowing and prostrating are all mentioned in the Quran but
there is no such number of rakaah and so it is left up to the
individual. We can continue to pray the 24434 format if it pleases us
but to say this is what God mandated is going overboard. The quran
does not mandate 5 prayers and if it does please show me the relevant
verses. You can pray 7 times but again making the 5 prayers
compulsory as if they have been sanctioned by God is wrong. God
does not mention details about civil and criminal issues because again
he has given us liberty to make decisions. There is a reason he has
gifted us with a mind. All the verses I have used to support my
arguments are clear verses and not taken out of context.
You say I will claim to be right because I am following the main

stream and you are wrong because you and the people who share the same
thoughts or follow the same methodology (the terrorists) are a small
minority but they are one of the big obstacles hindering the main
stream from progressing towards sharing the guidance of Allah with

others. In your first email you tried scaring me by saying I will be
in trouble in the hereafter and in this email you try comparing me to
terrorists. I would not expect such bully tactics from a learned man
such as yourself. These allegations do not help with the discussion.
Here is what God says about the mainstream
"Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead
thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture
they do nothing but lie." 6116
Incidentally most(maybe all?) of the terrorists follow hadiths to the
letter hence them giving up their lives for the magical 72 virgins in
heaven according to a hadith which I am sure you could dig up.

As far as you accusing me on the day of judgement. I only wish to
motivate other Muslims to find the truth out from themselves and break
the shackles of Bukhari, Muslim and other so called scholars that have
imprisoned us for so long. In the words of Thomas Jefferson"I swear
upon the altar of God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over
the mind of man."
God bless,
Said Mirza