Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Pseudo,
Woman waits 3 menstruations (not months) - Start day of divorce
End day of 3rd menstruation since divorce
Man waits 4 months (not menstruations) - Start day of oath
End exactly 4 months later
Menstruations are variable/inconsistent one-time events.
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.This is not basic logic. This is your pseudo logic.
http//www.truthpizza.org/logic/badlogic.htm
You are essentially building a circular argument saying that "shahr" means "month" because "month is fixed consistent "time" between two events". As you can see, it is circular and begs the question because the assumption of "shahr" meaning "month" (the very thing you are trying to prove) is in your premise.
The other pseudo logic in your argument is that the premise itself is false since actually "month is NOT a fixed consistent "time" between two events". For example, February is not consistent with January, etc.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Pseudo,
It means God knows the habitat is scarce in land wildlife; a few thousand people would eat everything.
Mecca is only 40 miles to the Red Sea abundant with fish to stock up with
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=mecca+saudi&ie=UTF8&ll=21.473518,39.814453&spn=1.290712,1.917114&t=h&z=9
http//www.hurtigruten.com/Global/Images/Greenland/580x235b/grnlDryFish_580x235.jpg
This is a logistics issue and viable option for having a large meeting of thousands or millions of people anywhere in the world especially in the Arabian Peninsula. How else to advise solving the problem for people traveling to the area or any place?
596 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?Please see my replies to Belal above. Again, 596-97 don't mention "hajj" at all so your argument is completely irrelevant to begin with. Your argument is based entirely on preconceptions from Hadiths that abrogate the clear hunting restriction and make it for the period of 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to the 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only for the area around Mecca. On the other hand, we are indisputably told in the great reading that the period is FOUR "shahr" and there is absolutely no mention of Mecca or any specific town where only there the hunting is restricted and no where else. So regardless of what you think "shahr" means, you are violating your own understanding by following what sectarians do. The god has made this clear, so don't dispute the god's restrictions and allow what he had made restricted based on your Hadiths preconceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
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Mecca is only 40 miles to the Red Sea abundant with fish to stock up with
Peace Pseudo,
The following information is taken from the official site of the Ministry of Hajj Saudi Arabia for your information. The restricted area is shown in green color in the map given at the site. This area is called Haram (restricted area) and everywhere outside this area including the Red Sea is called Al-Hill (Free Area).Location of Miqats
There are five places some distance from the Holy City of Makkah which pilgrims must not cross before they are in a state of Ihram if they intend to enter al Masjid al Haram for Umrah or Hajj. These points or stations are called Miqats. For map, see Location of MiqatsDhu'l-Hulayfah This miqat is about 9 kilometers from Madinah and about 450 kilometers from Makkah. Dhu'l-Hulayfah is the miqat for those who live in Madinah and for those who approach Makkah from that direction.
Juhfah This miqat is about 190 kilometers to the northwest of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people who come from the direction of Syria.
Qarn al-Manazil This miqat is a hilly place about 90 kilometers to the east of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Nejd or for those coming from that direction.
Dhat Irq This miqat is about 85 kilometers towards the northeast side of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Iran, Iraq and for those coming from that direction.
Yalamlam This miqat is a hilly area about 50 kilometers to the southeast of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Yemen and others coming from that direction. It is the miqat for many of the pilgrims from China, Japan, India, Pakistan who come by ship.
The area outside the Haram, the holy land on which the City of Makkah stands, is called al-Hill. Muslims who enter the Haram area on business or for other purposes need not do the ihram before entering the Holy City of Makkah unless they have the intention to perform Umrah or Hajj. Muslims coming to Makkah with the intention of performing Umrah or Hajj must not cross a Miqat without first entering into the state of Ihram, unless they live within the area between Miqat and the Haram. In this case they do Ihram either at home or just before entering the Haram area. -
Peace Farida,
This is because there is no single calendar and in the Quran the moon is held out as the one for keeping counts of days, the secret months are not to keep the count of time but a set of months when hunting is prohibited, which is a seasonal event in the different part of the world which can at time come within the month of fasting or Hajj if it falls in those months when wild life need to be preserved.
Thank you. Even though I disagree with you that "shahr" means "month", what you are saying is far more mindful of the god than what Pseudo or Belal are saying, which is nothing more than repeating the sectarian Hadith-based abrogation of the restriction by making it for no one except the pilgrims and only for the period of 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to the 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only for the area around Mecca (or Jerusalem in the case of Belal).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Belal,
Ayman, I believe that God has declared four months out of the twelve and called them Hurm "Restricted" (9-36).
And if one choose to perform Hajj in one of them, then he becomes under restriction "Hurm" from many things including Hunting. But when done with hajj, the restriction of hunting is no longer valid.Sectarians believe that their so-called Hajj is from the 8th to 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah. If you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Peace,
Ayman
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If you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Excellent question, bro Ayman, but where lies the answer? If Muslims believe in those "four months", then where did it come from and why? -
Peace Belal,
Sectarians believe that their so-called Hajj is from the 8th to 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah. If you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
The following verse tel us that the four Restricted months are known to the Prophet and his companion
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
95And as I always said, until today, moslems sects are in agreement in what these months are, especially, Ramadan.
If hurumun means a state of sacredness during the hajj which begins after the appointed places named miqat, which are places around and some kilometres away from Mecca, this means that God doesn?t know that there is no sea around Mecca and he allows us to kill wildlife in the seas around Meca while we are in a state of hurum.
Peace
That is you believe that Kabba is in Macca (Saudi Arabia); but if you believe that it is in "Bakka " Jerusalem, then the picture will be different,; there are plenty of sea life in Jerusalem surrounding areahttp//www.ddtravel-acc.com/images/ilmap.gif
Peace
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Peace Belal,
The following verse tel us that the four Restricted months are known to the Prophet and his companion
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
95
And as I always said, until today, moslems sects are in agreement in what these months are, especially, Ramadan.This is the well known logical fallacy of appeal to popularity. I asked you a simple straight question. Instead of appealing to the popular baseless belief amongst sectarians, please tell us what those four restricted months are. Don't you know them?
That is you believe that Kabba is in Macca (Saudi Arabia); but if you believe that it is in "Bakka " Jerusalem, then the picture will be different,; there are plenty of sea life in Jerusalem surrounding area
Using the fallacious logic you used above, then sectarians also say that there are many verses that tell us that the shrine in Mecca is known to the prophet and his companion and until today moslem sects are in agreement on this. This is clearly following nothing except your own whims. You appeal to popularity for the things that you like and then turn around and violate your own stand for the things that you don't like.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
This is not basic logic. This is your pseudo logic. )
http//www.truthpizza.org/logic/badlogic.htm
You are essentially building a circular argument saying that "shahr" means "month" because "month is fixed consistent "time" between two events". As you can see, it is circular and begs the question because the assumption of "shahr" meaning "month" (the very thing you are trying to prove) is in your premise.
The other pseudo logic in your argument is that the premise itself is false since actually "month is NOT a fixed consistent "time" between two events". For example, February is not consistent with January, etc.
That is your Pseudointellectual logic )
Definition One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
A "month" is fixed point-in-time (start of month) to point-in-time (end of month).
Time requires 2 reference points, this is basic logic else time stands still.
2217 They ask you about the full-moon (point-in-time) the forbidden, fighting/killing in it, say
Makes no sense, a ?full moon? is a fixed point-in-time as a clock stuck at 12 midnight
http//christmasallyear.org/images/image4.jpg
When a man takes an oath, the clock starts (that day) and ends 4 "months" later.
If 100 men take oath on variable days in the same month, their end date is not the same day after a full moon.
Peace Tlepsh,
The following information is taken from the official site of the Ministry of Hajj Saudi Arabia for your information. The restricted area is shown in green color in the map given at the site. This area is called Haram (restricted area) and everywhere outside this area including the Red Sea is called Al-Hill (Free Area).
The circle imposed is irrelevant to this discussion; you assumed a sea nearby and ridiculed God's verse which even with your logic nullifies much of the world including Jerusalem
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Jerusalem+israel&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=NjCgSfSQO5DMnQevw9H8DQ&ll=31.767873,35.213928&spn=1.849359,2.032471&z=9&iwloc=addr
It's a logistics issue to accommodate tens of thousands and preserve wildlife regardless.
Example late 7th century, choose a location for your gathering and plan the logistics?Peace
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Peace Pseudo,
Pseudointellectual logic )
Definition One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.Exactly. )
February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
"February is consistent with February of that year". rotfl
I hope that you can see why your circular reasoning is funny.
Here is what you said in your previous post
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
A "month" is fixed point-in-time (start of month) to point-in-time (end of month).
Time requires 2 reference points, this is basic logic else time stands still.How is a month fixed? Is February fixed? How come it is sometimes 29 days? If a certain country makes up a month from February 1 to February 20 and calls it March and everyone in that country agrees, then is it a month?
2217 They ask you about the full-moon (point-in-time) the forbidden, fighting/killing in it, say
Makes no sense, a ?full moon? is a fixed point-in-time as a clock stuck at 12 midnightIt makes perfect sense. People usually ask about something using an important or a clear aspect of it. When people in the past talked about "Harvest moon", this didn't mean that the harvest only took place in one point of time with the clock stuck at midnight. Full-moon is a marker for the period between two full moons. It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 53.
When a man takes an oath, the clock starts (that day) and ends 4 "months" later.
If 100 men take oath on variable days in the same month, their end date is not the same day after a full moon.This has already been addressed numerous times by the fact that the same wording for counting the time is used in 2226 and 2228. Instead of your comebacks, please see my replies to Nun on this thread. )
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
I believe that I have covered all the points that I have knowledge of from Quran. Since last Ramadan we have been going in endless debate. Since I came to this thread, I have been very flexible in changing my Suni teaching when it contradicts Quran. But with due all respects, your theory about Fasting is refuted by many Quranic verses, and therefore, I did not change my old view about Ramadan or the time of fasting. As I said, I believe that the time of fasting has been the 9th moon month in the Lunar Calender since the prophet time till today.
Moreover I believe that the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th moon months are the four restricted ones until proven wrong by Quran, Bible, or Old Testament (in other words, I need to search it more).Please read the following view about Rammadan ( rotfl it is very funny...it talks about Free-minds)
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9223http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9196
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Peace Belal,
I believe that I have covered all the points that I have knowledge of from Quran. Since last Ramadan we have been going in endless debate. Since I came to this thread, I have been very flexible in changing my Suni teaching when it contradicts Quran. But with due all respects, your theory about Fasting is refuted by many Quranic verses, and therefore, I did not change my old view about Ramadan or the time of fasting. As I said, I believe that the time of fasting has been the 9th moon month in the Lunar Calender since the prophet time till today.
Moreover I believe that the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th moon months are the four restricted ones until proven wrong by Quran, Bible, or Old Testament (in other words, I need to search it more).Thank you for answering my question. You see when you answer, you, I and everyone can benefit.
You earlier said that you follow "Moslems sects who are in agreement in what these months are". According to sectarians those months are Muharram (1st), Rajab (7th), Dhu al-Qi'dah (11th), Dhu al-Hijjah (12th).
So in fact, by pondering upon my question in light of the great reading (which clearly indicates that the four restricted "shahr" are consecutive), you have improved your understanding and are not following sectarians any more.
The next step for you is to stop following sectarians who think that the hunting restrictions are only for the pilgrims and only around a certain town.
Please read the following view about Rammadan ( rotfl it is very funny...it talks about Free-minds)
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9223
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9196This is funny. Now I am tempted to go in there and post something to burst their bubble and expose their falsehood.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Belal,
Thank you for answering my question. You see when you answer, you, I and everyone can benefit.
You earlier said that you follow "Moslems sects who are in agreement in what these months are". According to sectarians those months are Muharram (1st), Rajab (7th), Dhu al-Qi'dah (11th), Dhu al-Hijjah (12th).
So in fact, by pondering upon my question in light of the great reading (which clearly indicates that the four restricted "shahr" are consecutive), you have improved your understanding and are not following sectarians any more.
Peace
If you read my previous posts (during Ramadan) you would have noted that I agreed with you that the four restricted months are consecutive (per 9-1 to 5); hence, the Quran united us.The next step for you is to stop following sectarians who think that the hunting restrictions are only for the pilgrims and only around a certain town.
Here we can not agree; when saying that Hunting is restricted during Hajj is not because of Sectarians, but because of the verses that I posted before in which God says when hunting is violated, the person will have to kill an equal animal in Kabba (the one in Bakka and not Makaa )). Therefore, you need to rething your position in this one.
Peace -
Using the fallacious logic you used above, then sectarians also say that there are many verses that tell us that the shrine in Mecca is known to the prophet and his companion and until today moslem sects are in agreement on this.
I forgot to comment on this;
First when I joined Free-minds, I thought that Makka is where the Kabba due to sunism techings; but one brother told me that if Makka is the House that prophet Ibrahim built, why the prophets who proceeded Ibrahim never visited Makka...after all, they were Moslem? Then I new that there is something wrong, and therefore I evaluated my position to "Kabba is in Bakka and not Makka" (As the Quran clearly states it).Therefore, Sectarian are wrong in this one as they are with many other issues (e.g., Stoning to Death)
This is funny. Now I am tempted to go in there and post something to burst their bubble and expose their falsehood.
Peace,
Ayman
Let me know when you will do that so we can all watch it.
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Peace Ayman,
"February is consistent with February of that year". rotfl
I hope that you can see why your circular reasoning is funny.
Here is what you said in your previous post
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
How is a month fixed? Is February fixed? How come it is sometimes 29 days? If a certain country makes up a month from February 1 to February 20 and calls it March and everyone in that country agrees, then is it a month?
Gather your self; this is like explaining simple logic to 19 followers
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28
Is that not so?
You are comparing months in different years and somehow to women?s periods. lol
It makes perfect sense. People usually ask about something using an important or a clear aspect of it. When people in the past talked about "Harvest moon", this didn't mean that the harvest only took place in one point of time with the clock stuck at midnight. Full-moon is a marker for the period between two full moons. It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 53.
You may have something there, interpretation of day can vary as in time of fast (dawn-sunset) or beginning of the last day, perhaps so can month and year depending on context.
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
3412 and to Solomon the wind it?s going early time and its departure timeAlthough it still doesn't help these scenarios
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 full-moons
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves four full-moons and ten days
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 full-moons following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 full-moons
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 full-moonsIf above are applicable to 100 people in a particular lunar month, all will have the same end date.
Guess they can celebrate together and call it a holiday.
Peace
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Peace Pseudo,
Gather your self; this is like explaining simple logic to 19 followers
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28
Is that not so?This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?
You may have something there, interpretation of day can vary as in time of fast (dawn-sunset) or beginning of the last day, perhaps so can month and year depending on context.
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
3412 and to Solomon the wind it?s going early time and its departure time
Although it still doesn't help these scenarios
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 full-moons
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves four full-moons and ten days
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 full-moons following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 full-moons
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 full-moons
If above are applicable to 100 people in a particular lunar month, all will have the same end date.Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2228 and 2226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?
Same with full-moons (fixed time point A to B) except you drop one every 3rd year to align.
Nothing to argue, you brought up and keep bringing up Gregorian Feb (a time length) and large fonts as a diversion. lol
Regardless, every day is an event. Stick to month per Quran (fixed time point A to B).
Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2228 and 2226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.
2226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 months
2228 the divorced (females) wait three "menstrual events"3 events can happen in a month or never if in menopause, then wait = 3 months (654).
Menstruations have ZERO to do with oath in 2226 or full moons.
Let's put your theory to practice, another equation
584 so fasting two full-moons following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorSo two full-moons according to you is FIXED = 29.53059 days
Date = June 7, questions when exactly does June 7 start?
How do you fast .53 days and when is start and end to complete two full-moons fast?Full-moons 2009
June 7, 212 P.M.
June 21, summer solstice Northern Hemisphere
July 7, 522 A.M.Which is "red full-moon" tell us your 10 day start - end Ramadan dates for this year, please?
Peace
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Peace all,
I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.
This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).
Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace All,
Maybe Im over thinking this, but if ramadan is on the full moon after the summer solstice, then a new month, by whatever name you call it,lets just call it Ramadhan for the time, would begin on June 23rd this year and Night of the Power would be on July 7th. So the fast would begin on the 8th of July. Is this correct?New Moon----------------Fullmoon(Penumbral eclipse)
Jun 22 1935(735pm) Jul 7 0921(921am)Quranic Month 1st(Day period of June 23rd)
Night of the Power 16th(July 7)
First day of Fasting/Abstinence 17th(July 8 )
Last Day of Month 30th(July 21)Just thought about something else. Those who keep 30 days of fasting and follow this would begin on the 17th of one Quranic month and end it in the next month. Unless they begin fasting on the new moon.
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Peace all,
I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.
This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).
Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.
Peace,
Rami
Salaam Rami
I think part of the confusion is translating "3aada" as "return". The beginning as cited in the verse is "the moon" not the "old curved sheath"; so "3aada" here does not mean return, but "became" which is als a meaning of the word "3aada".
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.