Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

You are making ignorant assumptions. I stated month (Quran) is fixed. You keep coming back with February (irrelevant to discussion and a diversion).

It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated

February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28

Is February a month or not a month?

So when you say "month", you mean something like February or January or whatever, which is why you said the above. So according to you, when the great reading talks about "shahr", it means a month like February. If you disagree then tell us what your Pseudo "month" is.

So all verses with root means to wait on full-moon? lol

You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).

Qul tarabbasoo fa-innee maAAakum mina almutarabbiseena
5231 Say "Wait so that I am with you from the waiting."

Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.

It is simple

You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated

February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28

Is February a month or not a month?

Yes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.

You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).

I am not playing and you are truly clueless. The things we count or told to wait on are not the same
Months are not full moons or menstruations. These are not all waiting on full moons because they use same word as you infer

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352

Browse Root

Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.

These are not waiting on full moons, they are waiting on months (a number of days dawns-sunsets)
You said they are waiting on full moons and avoid answering the non consistency

584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest of poor

492 so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other

2 full moons fixed = 1 lunar cycle or 29/30 days whereas in below

2234
Widows wait 4 full moons variable = 3 to 4 lunar cycles + 10 days depends on start date.

You fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same

The Old Farmer's Almanac Moon Phase Calendar
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

The full Moon name for this month is Full Strawberry Moon. The Algonquin tribes knew this Moon as a time to gather ripening strawberries. It is also known as the Rose Moon and the Hot Moon.

Last year the June Moon Illusion before the summer solstice was huge
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm

You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?

I fasted today to make up for missed days. Admit this red hot moon is nonsense. The above should be enough to put this to rest.

I'll post my thoughts later (God willing) when I have time in another thread.

Enough said.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Yes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.

Topic is the correct understanding of the timing. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with my understanding. If you are not obsessed then forget everything I said and tell us what is a month according to your understanding?

You fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same

Before you judge people, tell us when do you fast? Everyone can then see who is fasting at a wrong manmade arbitrary time.

I fasted today to make up for missed days.

When were those missed dates? When quizzed on specifics, you are conveniently vague because you are either clueless or blindly following sectarians.

I'll post my thoughts later when I have time in another thread.

We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. peace

Peace,

Ayman

Supernaut

Topic is your hot moon.

Hahahahahahaha ;D

Real_Truth

I've been reading through all these comments(well skipped a few pages) and all I got was a headache lol! But good debate at least.....I hope this arguement can be resolved by next ramadan

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. peace

Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles

Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years

2197 The Hajj (are in) known months

I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples
http//www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/FIG02_004.JPG

Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23

http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time

2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count

2185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it

2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
3412 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles

Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition. peace

Go-ahead and critic.

Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Ayman,

At the beginning, I agreed completely with the concept of the 'red full-moon' being the true identifier for "shahr ramadhan". However, I'm starting to consider other sources, and all of the factors are not adding up. For example, the Qur'aan explicitly says that this period of abstanation has been decreed for us as it was with 'those before us', or the Jews and Nazarenes ("people of the scripture&quot. Well, the Jews or Nazarenes never used the 'red moon' as an identifier at all. In fact, they considered the onset of a month to begin at the sighting of the new moon, not the full moon. The followed a completely luni-solar calendar (primarily lunar), which seems very logical in this perspective... Since their years have approximately 12 months in a lunar system (actually 12.4 months), their calendar loses 11 days every year, and when they add a 13th month into the equation, they gain 19 days to keep up with the solar year cycle. Based on this, it's very likely that this is exactly what the Qur'aan was talking about when it mentioned those who add a 13th cycle into their year, since the 'shahr' (month/moon) count with God is 12.

I agree with your perceptions regarding this when it comes to other external factors, but some of these ideas are inconsistent with the teachings of the Torah, which is therefore contradictory towards the Reading... Is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of a full moon? Or is it possible that "ramadhan" was actually the name of a period of time (i.e. a month) during the pre-Qur'aanic period? Your depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...

I also agree with the characterization of "ramadhan" referring to 'scorching heat', and not referring to the name of an Arabic month. It's just the interpretation of "shahru" that's making me wonder. Based on the scriptural precedents in the Torah, it seems more likely that the "shahr" would be referring to the new moon, not the full moon, therefore alluding to a specific month. So, the passage could be written, according to this theory, as

The new moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the new moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling, so a count of other days. God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify God for what He guided you, and perhaps you would be appreciative. (2185)

So, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?

Peace,

Ahmad

Rami

Peace Bilal,

Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

Peace,

Rami

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Rami,

Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...

Peace,

Ahmad

Rami

Peace Rami,

I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...

Peace,

Ahmad

???BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???

Pseudo

Peace,

Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

It's not what is being implied, read verses in context, Torah is in Quran else no need to repeat stories.

See reply http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597564.msg192940#msg192940

New moon and it's cycles were known and used by all peoples across the world. Issues and intercalation are due to trying to sync days to lunar cycles or lunar cycles to solar cycles. No need

count days dawn-sunset
count years solstice-solstice
count 12 months (new moon-new moon) in year
Restart count for next 12 lunar cycles with new moon after solstice (start Ramadan next dawn)

1825 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years and add nine

300 solar years = (lunar cycles x 12) 309 lunar years

2827 He said "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten...

Hajj equated with years, one Ramadan/Hajj per year, 300 in 300 years, not 309 as would be case under current Islamic calendar.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Go-ahead and critic.

Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding. I am very familiar with your theory because at one point a few years ago before I reached my present understanding, I actually considered it. Therefore, don't take what I am going to say as criticism targeted at you. I am merely sharing the same exact critic that I told myself as I was going through my own thought process on the matter.

Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles
Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years

This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 936, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".

2197 The Hajj (are in) known months
I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples

Unfortunately, there are no such "months" known "throughout antiquity by all peoples". In fact, people have always used and continued to use different calendars with different months. This is reality.

On the other hand, what ALL people knew were the full-moon universal cosmic events. Therefore, all civilizations have always known the harvest full-moon and it is not a coincidence that it precisely corresponds to the feast/"hajj" Sukkot of the people of the book. It is not a coincidence that this biggest feast ("al-hajj al-akbar&quot is precisely full-moon number FOUR counting from the scorching/"ramadhan" full moon after the summer solstice.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon

It is also not a coincidence that ALL people knew that the hunting restriction was lifted and hunting resumed afterwards and therefore, the next full-moon is called Hunter Moon

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter's_moon

The name was used by people all over the world. In fact even Native Americans who didn't come into contact with Europeans until after the discovery of the Americas, used the same exact name Hunter Moon as the Europeans.

So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.

Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

There are several major problems with the above

The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon. The festival of Matzot and the feast of hagg HaSukkot start at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast (al-hajj al-akbar) for the people of the book (and all people), falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons starting from the scorching full-moon.
The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.
The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.

This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
2185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
3412 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles

This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies

It creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
It creates inequality between 2185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.
It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).
It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.

Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition.

No, it cannot be the equinoxes as per 1712. In 1712 we are clearly told that the god made the night and day for knowing the number of years. The only way to use the night and day to know the number of years is to use them to mark the period between the shortest/longest night/day and the next shortest/longest night/day. These are the solstices and not the equinoxes. Of course, the etymology of "ramadhan" points to the summer solstice and it also not a coincidence that it fits perfectly with everything we know about harvest feasts/"hajj" and hunting restriction.

As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".

As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2226 and 2228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.

As I said, I already know all the major problems with your theory because at one point I held the same view as you and the critique that I said to you above, I had already said to myself. May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Ahmad,

Your depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...

The great reading is not talking about calendars at all. It is talking about natural cosmic phenonmena independent from any calendar ans that are used to time the hunting restriction, the feast and the fast. Also, although the Jews use the new moon to begin their month, their feasts/hagg actually begin on the full-moon. Remember that the god said that the feast/hagg (not months) is known "shahr".

So, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?

Please see my response to Pseudo above to see why new moon is not correct.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding.

Likewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.

This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 936, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".

No need to sync, see prior reply above
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.
Count 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)

So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.

Perhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.

There are several major problems with the above

The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon.
The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.

People of the book and all cultures used new moons, Quran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639)

The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.

As for witness, I'll refer you to a prior post

It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 53.

In addition one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?

1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)

http//www.karaite-korner.org/1Oct2008Jerusalem_a_small.jpg

99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2589465288_9d4638f7ae.jpg

99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.

http//online.edfac.unimelb.edu.au/blog/2008group31/files/2008/05/moon-during-the-day-22-05-08.JPG

This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies

It creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.

Already addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root

It creates inequality between 2185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.

One night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.

It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).

This is relative as in 1220 (a low price) or 118, 324 (a short time). Few/some is

Fee bidAAi sineena
304 In few years

falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
1242 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.

It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.

Not so, read in context to see why...

285 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days. God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term...

It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.

As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".

Same as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.

As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2226 and 2228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.

Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.

May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.

Of course, that is Quran!

Peace

farida

Peace Pseudo,

We have been hearing this since you were Nun.

Salaam

I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D

welcome Pseudo
peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Likewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.

This is actually not our only difference. There is one more difference which is causing several problems in your understanding. The other difference is that you are not considering the new moon but you are consideing the new moon cycle.

No need to sync, see prior reply above
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.

This is not similar. You are counting a continuous time period (a cycle). Unlike an integer event, in a continuous time period fractions must be counted. Hence, one can get half a cycle or a third of a cycle. On the other hand, the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).

Count 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)

This is false. You don't get 12 cycles in a year. You get 12 and a fraction. If you are counting only complete cycles between solstices then you will sometimes get 11 cycles and not 12. For example, if the first new moon event after the solstice occurs on July 17 then you will only count 11 complete cycles in a year (with the last complete cycle ending June 1st). So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.

Perhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.

People of the book and all cultures used new moons,

No. When it came to timing the "hajj", they used full-moon. Also, this is not just about the people of the book but about all people. All people used the full-moon to time the harvest feast/"hajj" and the resumption of hunting.

Quran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639)

But NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.

In addition one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?
1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)
99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.

It is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.

Already addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root

Again, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4141) or the coming of the god's decree (924) or two good outcomes (952) or waiting for things to turn against you (99, or until a hoped for event (2325, 5714), or until judgment day (20135), or a calamity that time brings (5230, 31).

Moreover, the parallels in 2226 and 2228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.

One night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.

No. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night.

This is relative as in 1220 (a low price) or 118, 324 (a short time). Few/some is
Fee bidAAi sineena
304 In few years
falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
1242 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.

In all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few. Also, this doesn't resolve the redundancy if it is already known that "shahr" means "new moon cycle" or 29 days.

Not so, read in context to see why...
285 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days. God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term...

I don't see how this resolves the redundancy.

Same as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.
Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.

The full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat. Only the one AFTER the solstice fits all the parameters since it will certainly be hotter at the time of the moon after the solstice than the one before the solstice. You are also contradicting what you said above about "Restart count with new moon after solstice". In other words, the one before the summer solstice that is so close to it (under 11 days) is going to be the 13th new or full moon (in my case full-moon) which is not counted.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).
...So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.

Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.

http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2
08/30/2008 3
09/29/2008 4
10/28/2008 5
11/27/2008 6
12/27/2008 7
01/26/2009 8
02/25/2009 9
03/26/2009 10
04/25/2009 11
05/24/2009 12
Solstice
06/22/2009 1
07/22/2009 2
08/20/2009 3
09/18/2009 4
10/18/2009 5
11/16/2009 6
12/16/2009 7
01/15/2010 8
02/14/2010 9
03/15/2010 10
04/14/2010 11
05/14/2010 12
06/12/2010 no count
Solstice
7/11/2010 1

But NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.

It says use the phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639) so we use them

http//www.rodurago.de/en/index.php?month=2&year=2009&geodata=40.45,-74.00,-5&site=details&link=calendar#showcalendar

It is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.

Others for thousands of years have. I did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.

How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?

Again, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4141) or the coming of the god's decree (924) or two good outcomes (952) or waiting for things to turn against you (99, or until a hoped for event (2325, 5714), or until judgment day (20135), or a calamity that time brings (5230, 31).

Moreover, the parallels in 2226 and 2228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.

No, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).

The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.

Year Month Day Time Day of week
2009 Mar 11 0240 Wed

Example two men expire on the same night of full moon leaving widows and no one is there to witness, all were sleeping, only person awake was blind (hint). lol

Mr. X expires 2 hrs before full moon, wait time = 3 lunar months + 10 days
Mr. Y expires 2 hrs after a full moon, wait time = 4 lunar months + 10 days

No. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night

To say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.

In all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few.

I render it as "numbered" in all contexts.

I don't see how this resolves the redundancy.

I don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed

285 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...

The full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat.

I take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D

Peace

Pseudo

Salaam

I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D

welcome Pseudo
peace

Salaam Farida -- thank you.

How far away can one really go except a few clicks on a key board. ;D

peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2

You are confused in your counting. You are saying that you are counting the cycle but you are actually counting the event of the new moon. On 7/03/2008 there is no complete cycle. The complete cycle is from 7/03/2008 to 08/01/2008 ----> 1 cycle. So unless you changed your mind and now acknowledge that we are counting events and not cycles, you should write

07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1

This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.

It says use the phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639) so we use them

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Others for thousands of years have.

Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"? )

I did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.
How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?

The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.

No, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.
2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).
The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.

No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

To say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.

You made it so by making one statement.

I render it as "numbered" in all contexts.

You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.

I don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed
285 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...

Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.

I take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D

The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument )

Peace,

Ayman

Tlepsh

Peace Pseudo,

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

Peace Ayman,

In 2234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?

According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.

The information for hilal is given under the root word(&#1604
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?

Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (&#1604 says
Hum ahlu ahlatin ( &#1613 and (&#1613 means They are people of the distinguished sort.

(&#1612 Ahliyatun means The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.

Does ahilla in 2189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?