:| hard indeed.
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That was very well said David. I very much agree.
Being a former Jew and living in the typical mostly white middle class American suburban community, I don't see any benefit to share my beliefs with someone unless I am asked so it very rarely comes up. It seems to me, most people are so caught up with their work, families, and pleasure seeking activities they barely think about God. I am raising my children as best I can under these conditions so they do not feel ostrisized by their friends.
There is only one Mosque in my area, I went to confirm my suspicion that they believed in hadith which they did. I did not get to speak to the Imam and perhaps will go back to see where he stands. But for now...this forum and the friends I've made around the world are the only believing community I have.
When I divulged to my father my belief (Islam through Quran alone) 14 years ago, it changed our relationship forever. In order to get on with our lives and have a relationship at all, the top of religion is off the table and is not discussed. I total get what God means by 'Choosing the difficult path'. I always look forward to friendly discussions about religion with people of different belief systems. You never know when someone will see the truth. But like David, I find, keeping my beliefs to myself unless asked is a much easier way to go.
Peace and Blessings
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Thank you very much, all of you.
I'm very grateful to that Allah has guided me here. Im honestly dreading the day I probably will have to
tell my family that I only believe in the quran, cos i love them very much but its hard knowing that I
want to fulfil my ambition knowing that my mum wouldn't like it and adding onto that i only follow the
quran alone. She woulnd't undertand. -[I remember clearly the night i was crying cos i was just so conused about islam. Certain things just didn't
make any sense to me at all. And i asked god to guide me and that, The next i just did loads of research
and landed here, and im still not done. I don't know enough about the things in the quran.
But then again im 17, hopefully I still have a while to figure things out.I appriciate you guys very much for helping me out. I agree with you 'I believe' that in these forums is
where i can be the real me. peaceMay allah bless you.
bravo -
Salaam Narma ;D
I am Somali as well so I can understand why family and friends might find your beliefs hard to digest. I remember when I first stumbled on this website 7 months ago and read many of the articles here. I began to talk about it with some of my Somali friends and they thought it seemed a little odd. One friend abruptly told me that hadiths were just as important as Quran, so I decided not to talk about reliability of hadiths and Quran alone with friends anymore. In the end I stayed a Sunni anyway and I'm quite happy in my beliefs, so I'm glad I didn't tell my parents because they would have been furious that I was even considering the rejection of hadiths.I would advise you not to tell your mum what your beliefs are regarding rejection of hadiths. They are your personal beliefs and they are likely to change over time. Study the Quran and look at all sides of the argument. Get the fuller picture.
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One friend abruptly told me that hadiths were just as important as Quran...
Peace Bubbles
To claim that hadiths are just as important as Quran is Shirk. I have muslim-friends that believe this too. Some muslims even go further by claiming that 1/10 of the knowledge is in Quran, while the rest 9/10 of the knowledge in Islam is in the Hadith-collections. That means that what the hadiths say are more important for them than what the Quran says. Sad, but true.
I have an article about the History of Hadiths that i think might interest you. A friend in deen wrote it originally, so he should get the most credit for it. Anyway, i changed it by adding some personal opinions + more facts. Scroll down to the end of thread to read it. The whole article is in my post in the end of the thread in the link below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16838.msg169055#msg169055
Yours sincerely
David -
Peace Bubbles
To claim that hadiths are just as important as Quran is Shirk. I have muslim-friends that believe this too. Some muslims even go further by claiming that 1/10 of the knowledge is in Quran, while the rest 9/10 of the knowledge in Islam is in the Hadith-collections. That means that what the hadiths say are more important for them than what the Quran says. Sad, but true.
I don't think it would fair to call that view Shirk to be honest. Its their perspective and they have their reasons for believing in it. The Quran isn't an encyclopedia and it doesn't have every last detail listed in it, the hadiths are a lot larger and greater in volume so they contain a lot of details about the historical context that the Quran was revealed in. Sunni scholars hold the view that the Quran is above the hadiths in terms of religious authority anyway though.
I have an article about the History of Hadiths that i think might interest you. A friend in deen wrote it originally, so he should get the most credit for it. Anyway, i changed it by adding some personal opinions + more facts. Scroll down to the end of thread to read it. The whole article is in my post in the end of the thread in the link below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16838.msg169055#msg169055
Yours sincerely
DavidYour article dwells on the fact that the collectors of much of the hadith literature were born 200 years after Muhammed and were Persian. Firstly their ethnicity or place of birth is irrelevant. They were scholars who spent time searching through the many alledged sayings of Muhammed and they collected those that they believed were authentic. Many of the scholars of today have checked though Bukhari and other collections and have deemed Bukhari and Muslim the most reliable. Have a look at this http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
In addition your article mentions the date of hijra and the time of Muhammeds death, however these are details that are only known due to historical sources mainly through biographies of Muhammed and hadiths.
You mentioned that scholars say that hadiths are divine, well that simply not true. They believe that they are sayings attributed to Muhammed and sources for religious injunctions. Thats it. Shias especially don't view any of the hadiths as 100% authentic, although they see some hadiths as rather reliable so can be used for Islamic law.
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I don't think it would fair to call that view Shirk to be honest. Its their perspective and they have their reasons for believing in it. The Quran isn't an encyclopedia and it doesn't have every last detail listed in it, the hadiths are a lot larger and greater in volume so they contain a lot of details about the historical context that the Quran was revealed in. Sunni scholars hold the view that the Quran is above the hadiths in terms of religious authority anyway though.
Your article dwells on the fact that the collectors of much of the hadith literature were born 200 years after Muhammed and were Persian. Firstly their ethnicity or place of birth is irrelevant. They were scholars who spent time searching through the many alledged sayings of Muhammed and they collected those that they believed were authentic. Many of the scholars of today have checked though Bukhari and other collections and have deemed Bukhari and Muslim the most reliable. Have a look at this http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/In addition your article mentions the date of hijra and the time of Muhammeds death, however these are details that are only known due to historical sources mainly through biographies of Muhammed and hadiths.
Peace
Using the Hadith for further clarification of God's message is shirk. It should not be turned to as a substitute for the Qur'an nor as extra guidance, God's word is sufficient. Allowing people to dictate your religion when God is giving you clear dictation is clear partnership or outright replacement = shirk. It is okay to make laws and say they are our laws on Earth as long as they don't violate the Qur'an's clear guidelines. It is another thing to write rules and then tell people they're going to go to hell if they do not obey your man made rules. It is a man-made collection of verses and conjecture. The Qur'an is not an encyclopedia, YOU think we know all God knows?! If God were to write all his knowledge of the Universe, could they conceive any of it at that time? Would they conceive any of it now? God made the message simple, and clear for all time and it contains all that was necessary contain. To argue otherwise when you are a believer is calling God a liar and that he cannot explain his message clearly to his own creation. Do you know how that sounds? God's knowledge far outweighs ours so expecting an encyclopedia from God is arrogant as if we can comprehend all of God's knowledge...
Just because the hadith are larger and in greater volume they should be respected? Surely if there were less of them and they DIDNT contradict and they weren't superstitious, sexist, filled with falsehood and politically influenced they would be better. But no they are this way, they are not adding any clarity to the system of Islam, they add more rules and complexity to the purity of God's system and making it unpallatable to many people who would convert if they weren't confronted with Hadith. The system of Islam is very easy and straight-forward but mankind was created anxious, he always wants rules, endless guidelines, reams of how to go to the toilet, how to have sex, how to eat, how to walk, how to talk, so this Hadith is collection of man's desire to make laws to restrict people endlessly and needlessly. Follow it if you do not have faith that GOD is sufficient, follow it if you think Man's word can abrogate the Qur'an (stoning adulterers), follow it if you want to rejoice in other names mentioned alongside God (Prophet Mohammed) and flee when God's name alone is mentioned. Follow it if you want to get lost in conjecture, a useless science that does not have any basis apart from SUPPOSED deeds that Mohammed did. WHO GAVE BUKHARI AUTHORITY? WHO'S AUTHORITY IS ABOVE GOD's? Bukhari is a fallible human who came from spilt out fluid. God was not created, God is All-Hearing, All-Seeing see the difference? God's light is eternal, all falsehood will pass away.
Peace
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Peace Bubbles
I don't think it would fair to call that view Shirk to be honest. Its their perspective and they have their reasons for believing in it. The Quran isn't an encyclopedia and it doesn't have every last detail listed in it, the hadiths are a lot larger and greater in volume so they contain a lot of details about the historical context that the Quran was revealed in. Sunni scholars hold the view that the Quran is above the hadiths in terms of religious authority anyway though.
The Quran contains all details that we need for religious and spiritual Guidance. God knows best. When God says that the Quran is fully detailed, He is telling the TRUTH
Quran 6114
?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed??Quran 111
A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.Quran 413
A Scripture whose verses are detailed, a compilation in Arabic for a people who know.Quran 6126
And this is your Lord?s straight path. We have fully detailed the revelations to a people who remember.Your article dwells on the fact that the collectors of much of the hadith literature were born 200 years after Muhammed and were Persian. Firstly their ethnicity or place of birth is irrelevant. They were scholars who spent time searching through the many alledged sayings of Muhammed and they collected those that they believed were authentic. Many of the scholars of today have checked though Bukhari and other collections and have deemed Bukhari and Muslim the most reliable. Have a look at this http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
I think the ethnicity and place of birth is of Absolute Importance. The ethicity of the scholars tells us that bukhari and Co were persians. Do you realize what this means? As we know, at the time when Bukhari and Co lived in Iran, The Zoroastrian-religion was still an important religion in Iran. This explains why Zoroastrian-religion and its teachings had a big influence on Hadiths and Sunni-Islam. For example the Ritual prayer in Sunni and Shia-Islam is copied from the Zoroastrianism.
The Ritual Prayer in Zorostrianism is almost exactly identical with the Ritual Prayer of Sunni-muslims
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8029.0
Bubbles, did you know that the law of Stoning in muslim countries comes from Sharia laws based on hadith?
Quran actually rejects stoning. The stoning practice is a gravesin that comes from th false sharia. Stoning of adulterers is never mentioned in Quran, not even in one versehttp//progressivemuslims.org/sub/stoning.htm
After reading different hadiths, i have found a bunch of so-called Sahih-hadiths that tells us lies about our prophet. The hadiths below tells us that Prophet Muhammed used Stoning as punishment on people. These hadiths are off course lies and fabrications attributed to our Prophet. However, they are all in the Sahih-Collections.
Stoning/muderering those that have sex outside marriage in the Sahih-Hadith collections
Hadith Sahih Bukhari 223413, Sahih Bukhari 350885, Sahih Bukhari 456829, Sahih Bukhari 66079, Sahih Bukhari 763195, Sahih Bukhari 882803, Sahih Muslim 174201, Sahih Muslim 174191, Sahih Muslim 174216, Sahih Muslim 174206.
You can search for all the hadiths above in the search-motor in this link
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
Or you can do a google-search for those hadiths.
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Peace
Using the Hadith for further clarification of God's message is shirk.
You do realise that every muslim, including those that reject hadiths often use other sources for clarification of the Quran, whether it be dictionaries or by asking other people what they understand a certain verse to mean. When the followers of Muhammed didn't understand some of the verses in the Quran, Muhammed explained it to them. Should I just ignore his explanations? How can it be Shirk to use Muhammed's sayings to understand the Quran.
It should not be turned to as a substitute for the Qur'an nor as extra guidance, God's word is sufficient. Allowing people to dictate your religion when God is giving you clear dictation is clear partnership or outright replacement = shirk. It is okay to make laws and say they are our laws on Earth as long as they don't violate the Qur'an's clear guidelines. It is another thing to write rules and then tell people they're going to go to hell if they do not obey your man made rules. It is a man-made collection of verses and conjecture.
You're right in saying that the hadiths were man-made, but the man that made them was Muhammed. My belief is that Muhammed is to be obeyed as well as the Quran. You believe that the hadith collections are unreliable and "conjecture". Perhaps some are fabricated, but scholars have already acknowledged this and have classed hadiths differently, from Sahiih to maudu3. Perhaps their method of judging the authenticity of hadiths isn't good enough for you, but it is good enough for me.
The Qur'an is not an encyclopedia, YOU think we know all God knows?! If God were to write all his knowledge of the Universe, could they conceive any of it at that time? Would they conceive any of it now? God made the message simple, and clear for all time and it contains all that was necessary contain. To argue otherwise when you are a believer is calling God a liar and that he cannot explain his message clearly to his own creation. Do you know how that sounds? God's knowledge far outweighs ours so expecting an encyclopedia from God is arrogant as if we can comprehend all of God's knowledge...
I didn't claim that God should have revealed an encyclopedia. Its just the fact that He didn't, which is why knowledge of many matters need to be found through other mediums. God could have mentioned the structure of atoms and the details of the Big Bang, but the Quran would be never ending so I can understand why. I gain guidance and understanding from theologians, scientists, Prophet Muhammed and most of all the Quran.
Just because the hadith are larger and in greater volume they should be respected? Surely if there were less of them and they DIDNT contradict and they weren't superstitious, sexist, filled with falsehood and politically influenced they would be better. But no they are this way, they are not adding any clarity to the system of Islam, they add more rules and complexity to the purity of God's system and making it unpallatable to many people who would convert if they weren't confronted with Hadith.
When did I say hadith collections demand more respect because of their volume?
Perhaps some hadiths are strange to some, but that isn't reason enough for me to reject them in their entirety. They are a valuable source on the life and times of Muhammed.The system of Islam is very easy and straight-forward but mankind was created anxious, he always wants rules, endless guidelines, reams of how to go to the toilet, how to have sex, how to eat, how to walk, how to talk, so this Hadith is collection of man's desire to make laws to restrict people endlessly and needlessly. Follow it if you do not have faith that GOD is sufficient, follow it if you think Man's word can abrogate the Qur'an (stoning adulterers), follow it if you want to rejoice in other names mentioned alongside God (Prophet Mohammed) and flee when God's name alone is mentioned.
There aren't any rules in Ahlus Sunnah on how one must go toilet, have sex, eat, walk or talk.
I do have faith that God is sufficient. I also believe God gave us the Quran and Muhammed as a gift, so I listen to their guidance.
I don't see Muhammed as being alongside or equal to God, just like I don't see the Quran as being alongside or equal to God. I'm assuming you have a disliking for Muhammed being mentioned in shahada; Muslims should believe that there is only one God and Muhammed is his messenger in their heart, so what is wrong with saying it out loud in shahada?Follow it if you want to get lost in conjecture, a useless science that does not have any basis apart from SUPPOSED deeds that Mohammed did. WHO GAVE BUKHARI AUTHORITY? WHO'S AUTHORITY IS ABOVE GOD's? Bukhari is a fallible human who came from spilt out fluid. God was not created, God is All-Hearing, All-Seeing see the difference? God's light is eternal, all falsehood will pass away.
Imam Bukhari was simply a man who collected hadiths and he studied their line of transmission in great detail. He then wrote down those that he thought were authentic. He may have been wrong on some, which is why scholars after him have also studied the transmission of hadiths and Bukhari's collection is seen as the most reliable. He has no more authority than any of the other scholars, and definitely no more authority than the Quran or Muhammed.
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Peace Bubbles
The Quran contains all details that we need for religious and spiritual Guidance. God knows best. When God says that the Quran is fully detailed, He is telling the TRUTH
That may very well be the case, but that doesn't mean that spiritual guidance can't be sought elsewhere also. That is where Muhammed's teachings come in for me.
I think the ethnicity and place of birth is of Absolute Importance. The ethicity of the scholars tells us that bukhari and Co were persians. Do you realize what this means? As we know, at the time when Bukhari and Co lived in Iran, The Zoroastrian-religion was still an important religion in Iran. This explains why Zoroastrian-religion and its teachings had a big influence on Hadiths and Sunni-Islam. For example the Ritual prayer in Sunni and Shia-Islam is copied from the Zoroastrianism.
The Ritual Prayer in Zorostrianism is almost exactly identical with the Ritual Prayer of Sunni-muslims
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8029.0
So what if the Zoroastrian way of praying is similar? That doesn't mean Bukhari just copied it from them and then convinced the rest of the Muslims to change their way of Salaat, which is something that they've been doing for 200 years before Bukhari. The prostration and bowing part is mentioned in the Quran and has been done as a form of worship for centuries before the Quran. Its nothing new.
Bubbles, did you know that the law of Stoning in muslim countries comes from Sharia laws based on hadith?
Quran actually rejects stoning. The stoning practice is a gravesin that comes from th false sharia. Stoning of adulterers is never mentioned in Quran, not even in one versehttp//progressivemuslims.org/sub/stoning.htm
After reading different hadiths, i have found a bunch of so-called Sahih-hadiths that tells us lies about our prophet. The hadiths below tells us that Prophet Muhammed used Stoning as punishment on people. These hadiths are off course lies and fabrications attributed to our Prophet. However, they are all in the Sahih-Collections.
Stoning/muderering those that have sex outside marriage in the Sahih-Hadith collections
Hadith Sahih Bukhari 223413, Sahih Bukhari 350885, Sahih Bukhari 456829, Sahih Bukhari 66079, Sahih Bukhari 763195, Sahih Bukhari 882803, Sahih Muslim 174201, Sahih Muslim 174191, Sahih Muslim 174216, Sahih Muslim 174206.
You can search for all the hadiths above in the search-motor in this link
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
Or you can do a google-search for those hadiths.
Stoning was probably used as a punishment in Muhammed's time and I don't have a huge problem with the kind of punishments that they used considering their social and cultural context.
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Wow Bubbles! Seems to me you place a lot of trust in Bukari and Co. Let's be clear that the hadiths are attributed to Muhammad. There is no way we know Muhammad uttered the things that are in the hadiths. What if I came to you and said "Prophet Muhammad said if your nick is Bubbles you are going to hell" heard by <insert name> on the authority of <insert name> narrated by Abu Huraira. Will you believe me? By your reasoning, you would because all people who have met me think I am an upright and righteous person. You do not know me but you would are relying on other people's judgement who you have never met either! Hope this makes you reflect.