The Prayer Issue Revived
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Peace c0de,
Dude how can you say that the Torah is authentic!!??? You know how many times it contradicts the Quran?
There are so many stories in the Old Testament which show the prophets committing such unimaginable sins!!!
All of these stories are retold in the Quran with the errors removed. And worst of all is the image of God presented
in the Jewish scriptures, as wiping out entire races of people almost arbitrarily, accounts which have been corrected
in the Quran.Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted... In reality, the Qur'aan says that the Torah has NOT been corrupted, and it has been preserved, just like the Qur'aan. Please point out places where the Torah contradicts the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted... In reality, the Qur'aan says that the Torah has NOT been corrupted, and it has been preserved, just like the Qur'aan. Please point out places where the Torah contradicts the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
Well quran does say the people distorted his words and attributed things that he never said, which things that they attributed to God which he never said is clearly in the torah. God didn't bash the torah/gospel that much since there was no need too, with the quran you can figure out what was change and what wasn't
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@ Ahmed
Salaam bro
Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted...
Here is one example from the Quran, Verse 2102, clearly says that the the Tanakh contains fabrications
against Solomon PBUH. Referring to The Book of Kings in the Tanakh which claims that Hazrat Sulaiman PBUH
was guilty of idolatry.The Quran also redeems the character of many other prophets who have been falsely accused of grave sins in the Tanakh...
to tell you the truth bro, some of the stuff in the tanakh... is so bad, I don't even want to repeat here. -
Peace c0de,
Here is one example from the Quran, Verse 2102, clearly says that the the Tanakh contains fabrications
against Solomon PBUH. Referring to The Book of Kings in the Tanakh which claims that Hazrat Sulaiman PBUH
was guilty of idolatry.The Quran also redeems the character of many other prophets who have been falsely accused of grave sins in the Tanakh...
Okay... This doesn't prove the Torah or Tanakh is forged at all, since the Qur'aan never says that the claim of Solomon possibly turning towards idolatry in his later life is a lie. It never mentions this at all. So, if the Tanakh says it's true, while the Qur'aan doesn't mention it at all, then how can you be sure it's not true? The same is the case with the Tanakh's portrayal of King David, claiming that he committed adultery, something that's not mentioned at all in the Qur'aan. But again, just because the Qur'aan doesn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, your argument on this means nothing...
to tell you the truth bro, some of the stuff in the tanakh... is so bad, I don't even want to repeat here.
Yeah, I didn't think so... ) I don't know of anything in the Tanakh that is so bad, it can't be mentioned in an open debate on scriptural authenticity. So, that comment is ridiculous...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Okay... This doesn't prove the Torah or Tanakh is forged at all, since the Qur'aan never says that the claim of Solomon possibly turning towards idolatry in his later life is a lie. It never mentions this at all.
Did you actually read the verse I gave you? Here it is again
(and keep in mind that this is not the only verse which clearly
places the charge of forgery against the Jews).And follow that which the devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon.
Solomon disbelieved not; but the devils disbelieved...The words "falsely related" are referring to the story in the Book of Kings,
i.e. saying the account that Solomon PBUH disbelieved is a fabrication.The same is the case with the Tanakh's portrayal of King David, claiming that he committed adultery, something that's not mentioned at all in the Qur'aan. But again, just because the Qur'aan doesn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
David PBUH has been mentioned with high regard in the Quran. So I am sorry
if I find the claim that he had a man murdered so he could marry his wife, ridiculous.I don't know of anything in the Tanakh that is so bad
Then you clearly don't know the Old Testament.
"Lot, Abraham?s nephew, begat two sons by his own daughters while in a drunken stupor (Genesis 1930-35)."
http//www.christiancourier.com/articles/950-does-the-bible-conflict-with-itself-in-the-matter-of-incestPeAcE
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Peace be unto you, brothers and sisters,
May God guide you to the Truth.
What the Quran says about the Torah and Gospel
Surah 291, 299, 32-4, 3184, 384, 4136, 566-68, 6154-155, 1037, 12111, 1856, 2848-49, 2946-47, 4215-16The Torah and the Scriptures have been corrupted. We know this for Truth because God tells us so. He warns us of the corruption and to use the Quran as a verifier and confirmation of the Truth within the Scriptures.
Would anyone who is a believer; a muslim with faith in their heart, dare to bear witness to the lies and slander of the mighty Prophets who came before?
Who would claim to believe Lot slept with his daughters, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim Noah got drunk and was discovered naked, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim Solomon fell into sorcerous practices, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim David slept with anyone or killed because of it, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?What Truth do you claim to believe in? The Quran or what is written in other Books that have been tarnished by carnal men who sold their soul to the deceiver?
We are told to read all God's Books, with the Quran as the verifier. The Quran abrogates previous Law, confirm and verifies Truth! Why would we fall prey to the deceiver's trap in believing this slander of our Prophets? God tells us to read the Torah and Scriptures for the Law, no? Our focus should be on serving God, not demeaning His Prophets.
Remember that the Jewish Council of Elders added to the Tanukh. What better way to reinforce the Rabbinical teachings of mysticism and kaballah than to demean the Prophets and usurp the worship of God to the jinn and iblis?
Read the Old and New Testament, just keep the Quran nearby to ascertain the Truth. If God does not speak of it, it did not occur. Or would you believe men before God?
If you read the Tanukh, are you searching for the Nebi'im? Then focus on the prophecies, ignore the porn and slander of Judaism.
Pray for guidance. God most assuredly provides.
Peace and blessings.
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Peace,
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted. In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
If you are truthful, then please point out a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah has been corrupted... Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted. In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
If you are truthful, then please point out a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah has been corrupted... Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
Peace,
Ahmad
Ask yourself why God would tell the Christians and Jews to come to an accord to worship only God and follow the teachings of the Prophets.
Then ask yourself how Moses could write about the Promised Land when he was dead.
Peace. )
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
Ask yourself why God would tell the Christians and Jews to come to an accord to worship only God and follow the teachings of the Prophets.
Because the Jews strayed away from the Torah, and they traded it for the wisdom of rabbis. Even today, this is still a major problem in Judaism, especially in Orthodox Ashkenazi Judaism. In some instances, the Gemarra (Talmud) is followed in all circumstances, even if the Torah completely rejects the prescribed doctrine... The Christians strayed away from worshipping G-d alone, and they started idolizing Jesus and calling him the literal "son of G-d", a blasphemy in itself. Also, they completely rejected the guidance of the Torah, and instead, they traded G-d's scripture for the letters of Paul.
Then ask yourself how Moses could write about the Promised Land when he was dead.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that the Torah was not written by Moses; it was written by G-d Himself... When a scripture is divinely inspired, then G-d is the author of it, not the prophet. Therefore, G-d is the author of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad... G-d can write about things in every time period, because He is present and knowledgeable in all things at all times. Therefore, in the literal sense, G-d is fully capable of dictating the details of the "promised land" to Moses before he died, just like Muhammad mentioned things in the Qur'aan that didn't occur until after his death. In the prophetic writings, this is not unusual at all...
Still, I CHALLENGE anyone to provide a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not preserved. If there exists one, I sure don't ever recall seeing it, and indeed, the Qur'aan says the exact opposite, saying that the Torah and Injeel are indeed preserved for the present and future generations to study and obey.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
Because the Jews strayed away from the Torah, and they traded it for the wisdom of rabbis. Even today, this is still a major problem in Judaism, especially in Orthodox Ashkenazi Judaism. In some instances, the Gemarra (Talmud) is followed in all circumstances, even if the Torah completely rejects the prescribed doctrine... The Christians strayed away from worshipping G-d alone, and they started idolizing Jesus and calling him the literal "son of G-d", a blasphemy in itself. Also, they completely rejected the guidance of the Torah, and instead, they traded G-d's scripture for the letters of Paul.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that the Torah was not written by Moses; it was written by G-d Himself... When a scripture is divinely inspired, then G-d is the author of it, not the prophet. Therefore, G-d is the author of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad... G-d can write about things in every time period, because He is present and knowledgeable in all things at all times. Therefore, in the literal sense, G-d is fully capable of dictating the details of the "promised land" to Moses before he died, just like Muhammad mentioned things in the Qur'aan that didn't occur until after his death. In the prophetic writings, this is not unusual at all...
Still, I CHALLENGE anyone to provide a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not preserved. If there exists one, I sure don't ever recall seeing it, and indeed, the Qur'aan says the exact opposite, saying that the Torah and Injeel are indeed preserved for the present and future generations to study and obey.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace, brother,
Good point about the 3rd person. I see the Truth in it, especially after reading specific Surahs concerning the Prophets.
Do not get me wrong We do need to read the Torah and Scriptures because they did come from God! They are His Books. Yet as I've shown below, all are in need of the Quran for verification. You can decide why. As for me, coming from the Christian faith, I have my opinion that will be very difficult to disuade; I have seen first-hand the corruption of God's good news given to His Prophets The Trinity Doctrine and the missing Gospel of Jesus.
Jesus never said he was God nor should he be worshipped. The Quran confirms this Truth and enabled me to discover the deception much easier than on my own. Moses is told to be given a Book as well, not just the 10 Commandments. Surah 2843
Deuteronomy contains the same food restrictions as the Quran; one proof that it comes from God to me.If it were uncorrupted, would it need the Quran to verify the Truth from falsehood? It doesn't just confirm, it verifies.
"He has revealed to thee the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and Gospel. Aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Discrimination (Furqan). Those who disbelieve in the messages of Allah - for them is a severe chastisement. And Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution." Surah 33-4
"Again, We gave the Book to Moses to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good, and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord." Surah 6154
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is not doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it, and a distinct explanation of all things, and a guide and a mercy to al people who believe." Surah 12111
"And We send not messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve contend with falsehood to weaken thereby the Truth, and they take My messages and the warning for a mockery." Surah 1856
It's a terrible balance at times, weighing to share all I know or hold back so I do not scare off people when I share my experiences of Al-Islam. I have been quoting God's Word from the Quran and Scripture to a Doctor who I hold in high esteem; he is a Catholic but a man who loves God. We had great fellowship with our love of God, and he took many topics I brought to heart and incorporated them into his life. Because I speak English I say God more often than Allah.
He learned today I am a muslim and the quotes came from the Quran and Scriptures, and his demenour totally changed. Makes the heart heavy, yet I have faith in God to lead who He wills. He is a great man and I can see he loves God. Insha'Allah, this will open the door for further discussion.Or not.
This was a great study session. Thank you for the opportunity. )
Pray for guidance for answers to all your questions. God provides. D
Peace and blessings.
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Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
... again with this passive aggressiveness... nope
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted.
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
I see your point, but you are mistaken. The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.However, this does not mean that the Torah has stayed perfectly preserved like the Quran.
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.PeAcE
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
If it were uncorrupted, would it need the Quran to verify the Truth from falsehood? It doesn't just confirm, it verifies.
The Qur'aan says that it "musaddiqan limaa bayna yadayhe" (confirms the previous scriptures), which includes verifying and authenticating them. In order for this to be the case, the previous scriptures must be accurately preserved... Now, you've raised a very good question What's the purpose of the Qur'aan if the previous scriptures are uncorrupted?
In Christianity, the doctrines are based on manmade books and letters. None of these can accurately be called "divinely inspired", not by a long stretch. It's different, however, in Judaism. The Torah was actually authored by G-d Himself, and the knowledge and wisdom contained in the scripture is sound and reasonable... So, why the Qur'aan? Because Jewish teachings have changed, not the scriptures. Jews were condemned for trading G-d's scripture for a "cheap price", the wisdom of rabbis. That's why many of them, especially Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, place the Gemarra (Talmud) above the Torah, which is considered the actual word of G-d Almighty! The purpose of the Qur'aan is to lead the people back to the true teachings of G-d, telling them to abandon their idols and worship G-d alone.
I do understand your perspective, and G-d is the most knowledgeable. May He guide us all to the truth and the straight path...
Peace and best wishes,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
Are you sure this is what it's talking about, the Tanakh and not the Gemarra?
In actuality, it's talking about the Gemarra, the rabbinic commentary on the scriptures. This is why it mentions people spreading sorcery throughout the land of Babylon, a reference that's not mentioned ANYWHERE AT ALL in the Tanakh. It is, however, mentioned in the Talmud, but with a different idea concerning it. Rather than basing the origination of it's spread on two people (angels/"malaykayn" or kings/"malikayn", the Talmud references it as an entire body of people teaching this paganism, without mentioning who or what specifically started it. The Gemarra makes an implication that Solomon gave in to practicing this sorcery, leading him into idolatry, a concept that the Qur'aan blatantly rejects. But nothing about this incident is mentioned in the Tanakh at all, and the passage in the Book of Kings is talking about a completely different time and issue, alleging that Solomon gave in to paganism due to the pressure from one of his many concubines.
So, again, you're WRONG. The Qur'aan never alleges that the Torah is forged or corrupted. If it does, please provide a reference to support your claim...
The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I agree. The "New Testament" is a forgery, and it's not a scripture at all. None of it is divinely inspired, and nearly ever "book" originated as a letter from someone (mostly from Paul) to the newly developed Christian congregations throughout the region. None of them were intended to be used as authentic scriptures... And, of course as you mentioned, the Qur'aan speaks of the Injeel being sent down to Jesus, not written by his followers. Therefore, it's safe to presume that the Biblical canon does NOT contain the Injeel at all, at least not in it's true scriptural form...
I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.What exactly do you mean when you reference the Torah? Are you speaking about the Pentateuch, or are you talking about the entire "Old Testament"? In Judaism, the Torah contains the Biblical books of (what Christians call) Genesis through Deuteronomy. The other books are split into their respective catagories, "Neviim" (Prophets) and "Ketuviim" (Writings), and these are what make up the Tanakh (or Mikra)... The Psalms are not part of the Torah, they are part of the Tanakh (i.e. in the Ketuviim).
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.Posted where? Your "proof" has been disproven... Please provide some evidence...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
The Qur'aan says that it "musaddiqan limaa bayna yadayhe" (confirms the previous scriptures), which includes verifying and authenticating them. In order for this to be the case, the previous scriptures must be accurately preserved... Now, you've raised a very good question What's the purpose of the Qur'aan if the previous scriptures are uncorrupted?
In Christianity, the doctrines are based on manmade books and letters. None of these can accurately be called "divinely inspired", not by a long stretch. It's different, however, in Judaism. The Torah was actually authored by G-d Himself, and the knowledge and wisdom contained in the scripture is sound and reasonable... So, why the Qur'aan? Because Jewish teachings have changed, not the scriptures. Jews were condemned for trading G-d's scripture for a "cheap price", the wisdom of rabbis. That's why many of them, especially Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, place the Gemarra (Talmud) above the Torah, which is considered the actual word of G-d Almighty! The purpose of the Qur'aan is to lead the people back to the true teachings of G-d, telling them to abandon their idols and worship G-d alone.
I do understand your perspective, and G-d is the most knowledgeable. May He guide us all to the truth and the straight path...
Peace and best wishes,
Ahmad
Peace be unto you, Ahmad,
I appreciate this insight. I am unfamiliar with the Jewish faith, coming from Christianity to Al-Islam. This is helpful in my studies and I will pray for guidance.
If I were to do a video series on the corruption of the Jewish faith, would you be a resource I could possibly tap into? I am currently working on a series on Church doctrine corruption and Islam, and hope to finish them in the next couple of months, insha'Allah. This would wrap up the series completely.
Peace and blessings.
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Are you sure this is what it's talking about, the Tanakh and not the Gemarra?
Actually bro, it is very clear that it is the Tanakh which is being talked about, examine these verses
the wives of Solomon PBUH "turned away his heart after other gods" 1 Kings 114
And later on
"The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. 12 Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."
This passage in the Book of Kings is charging Solomon with heresy and God
punishing his entire kingdom. But the Quran clearly contradicts this and
calls this a fabrication. Not only does God redeem his character, but also the
reputation of his entire kingdom and his rule which is maligned in the Tanakh"And they followed what the devils fabricated against the Kingdom of Solomon.
And Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved..."
The Quran 2102It is made clear in the Quran that God did NOT reject Solomon PBUH
and God did not "tear away" the Kingdom from Solomon, and these
are fabrications against the Kingdom of Solomon. This prophet of God
is mentioned many times in the Quran and nowhere is Allah displeased
with him. The same is the story with other prophets who have been
maligned in the Tanakh, but find redemption through the Quran.
The Quran must always be given priority when looking at previous
scriptures brother.PeAcE
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... again with this passive aggressiveness... nope
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
I see your point, but you are mistaken. The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.However, this does not mean that the Torah has stayed perfectly preserved like the Quran.
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.PeAcE
The Torah in the Koran is talking about the Old Testament, it includes many Books including the Psalms and Books from the days of Abraham and onward. It spans several centuries. The Old Testament is a library of Books. It is not be understood the way the Koran does but it is a Book of guidance and light. Also I do not see what this big deal about Paul is? The Koran was concerned with the Divinity of Jesus, Paul has nothing to do with that. The Gospel does not preach the Divinity of Jesus and the Old Testament also does not teach that.
THE QURAN CONFIRMS TODAY'S BIBLE IS UNCHANGED
By A. Ibrahim
Muslims and Christians believe in the infallibility of the original Biblical manuscripts. But many adherents of Islam think that today's Bible has undergone substantial changes with regard to its early manuscripts and their translated versions. However, the Quran does not support this claim unanimously! In fact it makes it clear that the Bible, known as the Torah and the Injil, was found reliable in Muhammad's (p.b.u.h) time, the sixth century. To prove that the twentieth century Bible is still authentic it only has to be compared with a copy from the sixth century.
All quotations are taken from "The Meaning of the Holy Quran" translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and published by Armana Corporation, U.S.A., 1989.
Because of a lack of space it has not always been possible to print whole verses. The reader is encouraged to look up the references and their contexts in either the Quran or the Bible.
THE TESTIMONY OF THE QURAN ABOUT THE RELIABILITY OF THE BIBLE
1.)
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
"Those who have been reading the book from before thee" are Jews and Christians who read the Torah and the Injil (Gospel)! If they were reading corrupted holy books, their minds would have been influenced by many misconceptions. It would therefore make no sense for Allah to command those who are in doubt to ask Jews and Christians who allegedly were mislead by changed Scriptures! In order to follow the mandate in this verse it is absolutely necessary to believe that the Scriptures before Islam are uncorrupted!Here the question may be asked "Are what is known as the Torah and the Injil in Muhammad's (p.b.u.h.) time identical with today's Bible that contains the Old and the New Testament?" Regarding the Injil an affirming answer has already been given in "The History of the Quran and the Injil." The Old Testament too is identical with the Torah as seen from the following reasoning
The Hebrew word "Torah" means literally "law", "instruction". It refers to the revelations given to Moses. "The term was often applied to the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament, e.g. 1 Chronicles 1640) as a whole; and as the importance of the Prophets and Writings grew, it was sometimes used to describe them all as divinely revealed instructions and traditions." ("Dictionary of Beliefs and Religions" by Rosemary Goring, Wordsworth Editions Ltd, 1995)
Evidence from the Bible
Sometimes when the law is spoken of in the Injil, the New Testament, it is used in the all including sense. In Romans 3 Paul quotes verses from the book of Psalms and from the Prophets but then he concludes in verse 19 with, "what the law (Torah) says..." (See also 1 Cor. 1421)
Jesus himself referred to the Psalms as "the law (Torah)" in John 1034. Another example is found in John 1234 where the Jews speak of verses from Psalms 8936, Isaiah 97, and Daniel 714 as "the law (Torah)".
In the Quran too the meaning of "Torah" where all 39 books of the Old Testament are included is used. This becomes clear when one looks at the evidence found in the Quran, and in history
Evidence from the Quran
Several verses in the Quran bear witness to the truth that the Torah was unchanged at the time of Jesus.
In Surah 19, Maryam, verse 12, Yahya, who lived at the time of Jesus was told "to take hold of the Book, (the Torah)."
Surah 3, Ali'Imran, verse 48 tells us that Jesus was also taught in the Torah.
Numerous verses, such as Surah 34, Saba, verse 31, Surah 35, Fatir, verse 31, attest to the truth that the Torah was uncorrupted in the time of Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) in the sixth century A.D. The Arabic phrase "bain yadaihi" which is used in these references to the Torah literally means "between his hands". Dr. W. Campbell writes in his book "The Quran and the Bible in the light of history and science", (Middle East Resources, 1994, page 37) "...usually it is an idiom for "in his presence", or "in his power", or "in his possession," or "at his disposal..."(see also Surah 34, Saba', verse 12)
In the Quran some Jewish contemporaries of Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) are called "those who guide and do justice in the light of truth," besides many others whose reputation was not so favorable in the sixth century. (Surah 7, Al Araf, verse 159, see also Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 66) The very fact that they were commended so highly shows that they were in possession of the uncorrupted Torah. History tells us what was part of it.
Evidence from history
Like in the case of the Injil, the New Testament, the formation of an official list (canon) of the books that were part of it took a considerable time. When finally an official list was approved it was done so in defense against a growing number of heretical writings. The official list merely confirmed what had been accepted by the Jews centuries before. Then it was unnecessary because there was a common agreement as to which writings were part of the Torah.
After giving nine solid reasons for an early formation of the canon of the Old Testament, the authors of "An Introduction to the new Testament" (by D. Carson, D.J. Moo, L. Morris, Apollos, 1992, pages 491-92) conclude saying, "It appears, then, that there is adequate evidence to support the view that there was a (closed) canon of Scripture to serve as a model in the formation of the New Testament canon. Even if this point be disputed, there is entirely convincing evidence that the Torah (here meaning the Pentateuch) and the Prophets were viewed as closed collections by the first century A.D."
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (by F.F.Bruce, 1980, IVP, Leicester) concludes an extensive research by saying that the whole Hebrew Bible canon as we know it today existed around 200 B.C.
2.)
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say,"Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth." (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 93)
In this specific incident the Jews are asked to bring their own Law, the Torah. They are commanded by God to study it in order to find the right answer to a particular question. Maududi, the renowned Islamic scholar, said, that it addressed the difference between Muslims and Jews in regard to eating the meat of camels, hares and coneys. In opposition to Islam, Judaism prohibits the eating of them according to today's Torah (Deuteronomy 147). "But, the open challenge of the Quran to them to bring the Torah in proof thereof shows that the commandments referred to above did not exist in the Torah at that time and were inserted afterwards; otherwise the Jews would have at once accepted the challenge of the Quran and presented the commandments thereof." (See, "The meaning of the Quran", Vol. I, 12th Edition 1992, by S. Abdul Maududi, Islamic Publications (Pvt) LTD., Pakistan, comment on Surah 6, Al-Anam, verse 145, (hereafter referred to as "Maududi"This view is problematic because it ignores the fact that today's English translations of the Torah, such as the N.I.V., are based on the Masoretic text the standard edition of the Hebrew Old Testament. It was prepared by Jewish scholars, called Masoretes, mainly from 500 to the 950 A.D. They introduced vowel points into the consonantal (consonants only) Hebrew text. They also studied each letter, word and phrase and wrote marginal notes commenting on proper grammar and spelling. (See, "The World Book Encyclopedia", Volume 2, 1982, U.S.A., page 222b
Furthermore the translators compared it with a number of other sources still in existence today, the most important of which are
The Dead Sea Scrolls, written in Hebrew at about 100 B.C., discovered in the late 1940's and early 1950's in Palestine. "Among the fragments discovered are complete copies or parts of every Old Testament book except Esther, and the variations in the text after a thousand years of copying are minimal." (See, "Answers to Tough Questions", by Josh Mc Dowell and Don Stewart, 1980, U.S.A.)
The Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, at about 250 B.C.
The Syriac Peshitta, a translation of the whole Bible into the common language of certain parts of Syria, from either the first or second century A.D.
The Vulgate, the entire Bible translated into Latin at about 400 A.D.
In none of the above sources is Deuteronomy 147, the verse under consideration, missing! Looking at all the evidence one can impossibly say that it was missing in the prophet of Islam's time and only later inserted into the text!
Rest of the article here
http//www.arabicbible.com/islam/bible.htm
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@ Bigmo
The admissibility of their laws is not an admission of their perfection.
Another example According to Psalm 136, Pharaoh was drowned with his army
in the Red Sea. But according to the Quran Pharaoh was spared to be made
an example of for all to see. And today, his mummified body rests in a museum.
This is further proof that the Tanakh contains errors, while the Quran is perfect.More conclusive proof from the Quran
...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446PeAcE
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Peace everyone,
I made a mistake in my earlier post. It is actually the other way around.
The wordings used for dawn and dusk salaats are as follows (245
Salaat al-fajr (salaat of dawn - NO AL BEFORE SALAAT)
Salaat al-3isha (salaat of dusk - NO AL BEFORE SALAAT)This phrase without AL has been used for the timed salaats.
The wording used in 2238 is as follows
AL-salaat al-wusta (THE BEST/BALANCED SALAAT)
This wusta in this phrase is an adjective due to the wording and describes salaat.
As everyone can see, the wordings used are different for the timed salaats and al-salaat al-wusta, so the latter CANNOT BE REFERRING TO A SEPARATE TIMED SALAAT. This is grammatically UNARGUABLE.
Secondly, if AL-salaat al-wusta refers to a middle salaat then
WHICH SALAAT IS THE MIDDLE SALAAT ACCORDING TO THE QUR'AAN?
God forgot to mention that right? The qur'aan is incomplete and not fully detailed right? Because of this people are arguing and divided in two groups; one says the middle is noon and the other says the middle is middle of night. brickwall
IS THE MIDDLE NOON OR NIGHT AND WHY?
Again God forgot and the qur'aan is not fully detailed right?
Thirdly, in 2238, salawaat already covers all the salaats and then mentioning a separate timed salaat is redundant.
Again God is a fool and does not know redundancies right?
Salawaat refers to ALL the salaats in one's lifetime, and EACH OF THOSE SALAATS SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED IN THE BEST/BALANCED MANNER. That is what 2238 is telling us and this does not cause any redundancies.
The words "alsalaat" are mentioned in reference to THREE distinct times (1) faajr, (2) esha, and (3) wusta.
WRONG !!
There is no AL before salaat al-fajr and salaat al-isha. Please see above.
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Peace c0de,
"And they followed what the devils fabricated against the Kingdom of Solomon.
And Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved..."
The Quran 2102C'mon, bro - mistranslations are only making your argument weaker... The Qur'aanic passage doesn't say anything about fabrications, and it doesn't say that this was directed towards the Jews. The actual passage speaks about the devils RECITING certain things in Solomon's kingdom, which the people adhered to but Solomon rejected. What were these "devils" reciting? The rest of the verse makes it clear that it's talking about teachings of sorcery that started spreading throughout the land. This concept is NOT MENTIONED in the Tanakh at all, and you're completely wrong. These are talking about two completely different events at two completely different times... Once again, you STILL haven't pointed out anything in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah was corrupted. Until you do so, you have no proof for your outrageous claim...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace everyone,
I would like to draw the attention of the readers to the continued manipulation of the word of God and twisting it intentionally by someone on this thread.
This person is putting forth the argument that al-masjid al-haram means "sacred" mosque, and then implying that it is in mecca as used in the qur'aan.
HOW CAN HARAM BE TRANSLATED AS SACRED? Is that not twisting God's words?
The word for sacred is "moqaddas". Haram means "inviolable" or "restricted".
Secondly, God did mention the word "makkah" in the qur'aan once, in context of a war. NOWHERE did He say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in a place by the name of Makkah. Even if we go by the fabricated sectarian historical documents, there was no mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in Makkah around the so called Kaaba when the prophet allegedly migrated from there. He did not allegedly come back to Makkah until after Makkah was conquered and only then he could have built any kind of mosque there but the order for changing the qiblah came before that, so how could he have faced some non-existent mosque in Makkah when that order came?
The FACT is that NOWHERE in the qur'aan does God say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah. Al-masjid al-haraam means "the inviolable institution of obedience" as used in the qur'aan and cannot mean a physical building as used in the qur'aan. The qur'aan DIRECTLY tells us that al-masjid al-haraam is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". We are supposed to face the truth from our Lord wherever we are; that is make obedience of God as our target/goal/qiblah wherever we are. Also, the people of the book know al-masjid al-haraam just like their own children. The Jews and the Christians never knew a so called "restricted temple" in Makkah. This has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum before.
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Here, grammatically, "it" refers to "al-masjid al-haraam".
2146 Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
Firstly, there is no mention of salaat in the context of the al-masjid al-haraam being the qiblah verses. So facing al-masjid al-haraam is not ONLY during salaat.
Secondly, if it is a physical building, then how can we face it WHEREVER WE ARE or WHEREVER WE GO OUT as per the following
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.Suppose you are driving North towards Canada from USA, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.
Suppose you are sitting in front of your computer at home or in front of TV in USA facing North, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.
INFACT, WE ARE TOLD THAT GOD IS EVERYWHERE, SO IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER WE TURN EAST OR WEST. SO PHYSICAL DIRECTION IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing,
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west,............................
An excellent relevant post about Makkah
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597942.0
The other thing I would like to draw the readers attention to is another case of manipulating and twisting God's words. Someone here earlier said that athqaan means face because chins are part of face wow
HOW MUCH MORE CAN SOMEONE TWIST AND MANIPULATE THE WORDS OF GOD?
Using the same logic, athqaan can also mean legs, or arms, or chest, because chins are part of the body which includes all those.
UNBELIEVABLE. HOW LOW CAN PEOPLE STOOP TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND THEIR FOREFATHERS PRACTICES OVER THE WORD OF THE GOD?