?Four Ashhur and ten days? or ?Four ashhur and ten ashhur??
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Peace,
2.67 And Moses said to his people ?God orders you to slaughter a heifer.? They said ?Do you mock us?? He said ?I seek refuge with God that I not be of the ignorant ones.?
2.68 They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is.? He said ?He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded.?
2.69They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is.? He said ?He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.?
2.70They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, God willing, be guided.?
2.71He said ?He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish.? They said ?Now you have come with the truth.? And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.
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Salam Mazhar,
What rational do you have to assume that the word = and = let us read the following verses which use these terms
2233
In this verse we are given a maximum time for breast feeding for those who want to complete breast feeding term. This means breast feeding can be much less or like present time can be none.
3114
In this verse God is telling us that if we are to separate the infants from the mothers who carried and gave birth to them for whatever reason it should be done within 2 years as this would be easier for the child and the new mom. This 2 years period has nothing to do with breast feeding as the mother could have weaned the infant at any time she wants and still not be separated from him till closer to the end of 2 years.4615
This verse is similar to the above except for the 30 months period which I think is to account for the minimum pregnancy term plus the separation time limit for if the period is increased to account for the normal pregnancy term and an early birth happened then the separation time limit would be violated.Do you not agree that the word is not the same as the word as both words used in the Quran?
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Brother, but what would be the evidence from Quran to consider one thing according to lunar and the other with solar system. And calaendar from the beginning of our Universe is the one which Arabs followed, i.e. the lunar calendar.
"He is the One Who has given the Sun characteristic of radiating heat and light; and to the Moon of reflecting light. And He appointed the stages/spaces of the Moon so that you people may know the count/number of {Lunar} years and calculations, equations. And Allah has not created this except for a determined purpose and as proven fact. He distinctly explains the statements of the Book so that people may learn/know" {Refer 1005}
So we will have to remain on one system. Thanks.
Brother, no word ?lunar? in the verse you quoted and Arabs/traditionalists are wrong on many things.
Nor infer 12 lunar months = 1 solar year, this is not in Quran which says there are 12 shahr.
105 He is who made the sun light/shining and the moon a light, and He evaluated it places of descent/sequences/descents to know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating, God did not create that except with the truth , He explains the verses/evidences to a nation knowing.
I believe ?places of descent/sequences? manazila in this refers back to the sun, to calculate solstice.
Whereas in 3639 manazila obviously refers to the moon stages/phases to calculate the months.
3639
3639 And the moon We predestined it (in) sequences/descents until it returned as/like the palm tree's branch/date bunch, the old.
Likewise, it is sun to calculate years tied to sun/seasons?
1712
1712 And We made the night and the daytime two signs, so We wiped erased the night's sign, and We made the daytime's sign clearly visible to the eye and understanding, to wish grace from your Lord, and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating, and every thing We detailed it explaining.
1247
1247 He said "You sow/seed/plant seven years consistently, so what you harvested, so leave it in its ear/spike (of corn, barley etc.), except little from what you eat."
To use lunar years in my opinion brings about contradiction and we know interpretation is in error.
Peace
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Peace,
2.67 And Moses said to his people ?God orders you to slaughter a heifer.? They said ?Do you mock us?? He said ?I seek refuge with God that I not be of the ignorant ones.?
2.68 They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is.? He said ?He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded.?
2.69They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is.? He said ?He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.?
2.70They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, God willing, be guided.?
2.71He said ?He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish.? They said ?Now you have come with the truth.? And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.
And remember when Musa said to his people "Allah has certainly commanded you people that you sacrifice any one/ ordinary cow/heifer". They said "Are you taking us with fun/mockery?" He said " I seek refuge from Allah that I be amongst those who suggest scum/baseless things {attributing it to Allah}"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what type of cow/heifer is this to be sacrificed? Musa told them; "He says that the cow should be neither too old nor too young, but in between these two/middle aged. Your query having been answered, therefore, now do what you are being commanded"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what is her colour" He said "He says She be a cow of bright dark yellow colour, pleasing/looking original/genuine to onlookers"
They said to Musa "Pray/call your Sustainer Lord for us to distinctly explain for us as to what type of cow/heifer is this to be sacrificed? This peculiar cow {of particulars told here before} has caused us a confusion; and {on receiving clarification} certainly we will be guided, Allah willing.
He told them "He says that it is a cow which is not subjugated for tilling the soil nor to water the crop fields; a sound one with no spot". They said to Musa "Now you have come with the distinct/evident fact." It caused/cornered them to sacrifice her, though they had no wish/intention to do it.
He did not ask them to sacrifice some special or particular heifer. They felt offended as if they were being mocked. After a categorical denial, they took a turn and started asking to give the pecularities of the weifer. All their queries were answered but they repeated the same words which they had said in the first instance. And look at the deceptive technique, to give an impresion to their common people, as if they were ready to obey the command but since Musa {alahissalam} had not clearly defined the heifer, therefore, they were reluctant. Allah disclosed that only for reason of having been cornered, they sacrificed while they had no intention of doing it. May Allah guide us not to follow the patterns of Bani Israel.
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Brother, no word ?lunar? in the verse you quoted and Arabs/traditionalists are wrong on many things.
Nor infer 12 lunar months = 1 solar year, this is not in Quran which says there are 12 shahr.
105 He is who made the sun light/shining and the moon a light, and He evaluated it places of descent/sequences/descents to know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating, God did not create that except with the truth , He explains the verses/evidences to a nation knowing.
I believe ?places of descent/sequences? manazila in this refers back to the sun, to calculate solstice.
Whereas in 3639 manazila obviously refers to the moon stages/phases to calculate the months.
3639
3639 And the moon We predestined it (in) sequences/descents until it returned as/like the palm tree's branch/date bunch, the old.
Likewise, it is sun to calculate years tied to sun/seasons?
1712
1712 And We made the night and the daytime two signs, so We wiped erased the night's sign, and We made the daytime's sign clearly visible to the eye and understanding, to wish grace from your Lord, and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating, and every thing We detailed it explaining.
1247
1247 He said "You sow/seed/plant seven years consistently, so what you harvested, so leave it in its ear/spike (of corn, barley etc.), except little from what you eat."
To use lunar years in my opinion brings about contradiction and we know interpretation is in error.
Peace
Brother, here is no question of what traditionalists do. Only the grandeour of Arabic language is to be praised.
"He is the One Who has given the Sun characteristic of radiating heat and light; and to the Moon of reflecting light. And He appointed the stages/spaces of the Moon so that you people may know the count/number of {Lunar} years and calculations, equations. And Allah has not created this except for a determined purpose and as proven fact. He distinctly explains the statements of the Book so that people may learn/know" {Refer 1005}
Sun is feminine, Qamar is masculine, so declared by the One Who created both two.
In 1712 day and night has been declared as source of reckoning of years and other calculation. Here it is solar system since day and night are related solely and exclusively to sun, according to knowledge and perception of humanity in time and space.
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Sun is feminine, Qamar is masculine, so declared by the One Who created both two.
Peace Mazhar,
The Arabic being male dominant language is a bit tricky; can refer to both male and female as in
8019
Min nutfatin khalaqahu faqaddarahu8019...so He predestined him
Likewise,
105
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila litaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba ma khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqi yufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona
We can continue this lunar vs. solar year discussion in another thread or that hot Ramadan one. As for this topic, I believe this old inscription (if reliable) solves the mystery and it may in fact be 4 and 10 shahr/months?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597964.msg195197;topicseen#msg195197
"According to tradition and other historical accounts, a Persian soldier assassin stabbed Umar in public as the caliph was leading prayers in a mosque. Zuhayr, who may have witnessed the violent crime, recorded that Umar died in "four and twenty," which means 644 A.D."
Peace
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There is no need to be concerned with the gender of the number; rather we should look for the counted unit in order to understand the number, the qualifier of the number if you will, which here is the Ashhur (ر. The number 10 on its own means only number 10 and in no way can be assumed to be days or nights or anything else for that matter. The fact is days and nights are no where mentioned in these verses to be even thought of.
The composition and grammatical usage of the Arabic Language that we know at present time did not precede the Quran. Actually, they were derived from the Quran many years after its revelation and were not founded in accordance to pure linguistic and logical science. Many rules were created in support of certain interpretation of some of Quran's verses.
I totally agree with you. The mention of gender of number was not based on grammarians opinons, but on the usage in the language of the quraan which is quite consistent in this matter, and confirms further the understanding of 10 ashhur. In fact it's the traditionlists themselves who betrayed their own grammar rules when they sggested that it is 10 days.
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It is not traditionalists alone even progressive people think the same way
Progressive Muslims
2234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten days. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do. -
It is not traditionalists alone even progressive people think the same way
Progressive Muslims
2234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten days. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.The seriousness of the undersanding of traditionalists is that it's them who set the rules and laws, not anyone else. It's their understanding that brainwash the minds of others, even the progressives', into missing many important points.
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Sorry to say it is other way round. cannot qualify a number, it is the number which qualifies it.
Salam Mazhar,
No need to apologize, I'd rather see evidence "" to your other way round understanding. Let us read the following translated verses quoted from "The Message,
A Translation of the Glorious Qur?an" and as you can see the word days is used to identify the 10 in verse 2234.2532 And those who rejected said ?If only the Qur?an was sent down to him in one go!? It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly.
2234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten days. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
2240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
In my reading the four months and 10 "months" are separated to direct us to the 2 periods " " so both periods combined will complete the term " " for widows. However, should all readings insist on 10 being days? Then " = 4 + 10 + ".
Sadly, many of the traditionalists and new readers not only insist on 10 being days but also have accepted that verse 2240 was cancelled "" by verse 2234
Equitably and in Goodness do not satisfy the meaning of the Arabic words " ". "" as a social concept.
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Sadly, many of the traditionalists and new readers not only insist on 10 being days but also have accepted that verse 2240 was cancelled "" by verse 2234
And interestingly both are directed towards different people. First to the women whose husbands have "left" them and the other is for husbands who are "leaving" their wives.
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Jalalain
And those of you who die and leave wives behind such wives shall wait by themselves for four months and ten (nights) . When they have reached the end of their waiting period, there shall be no offense for you in whatever they choose for themselves kindly. Allah is Aware of what you do.Maudoodi If those of you, who die, leave wives behind, they should abstain (from marriage) for four months and ten days.259 Then when their waiting term expires, they are free to do whatever they choose for themselves, provided that it is decent; you shall not be answerable for this; Allah is fully aware of what you do.
PMAnd for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten days. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
Attempted by me
And those who seperate from amongst you and they leave behind their wives, they shall wait/restrain their selves for a period of four lunar months and till the tenth lunar night. For reason when their last moment of prescribed duration has elapsed/ terminated/ crossed over to new era then there is no objection upon you people in what they decide/act about their selves in accordance with the known norms of the society. And Allah is informed/aware of all what acts you are doing.An appointed duration if it is NOT in hours and seconds then its termination point of time must be indicated. is only when one thing croses from one state into another. A period/duration is when it croses the terminating point of time that duration. In lunar calendar the day begins with the sighting of the moon, the cycle of the day is from night to night.
Pointation of any lapse in the above translation from any angle is requested please for my guidance. -
2234?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
A clear verse and as with all directives, Quran is best read exactly as stated without added preconceptions (?) to be understood as one would at the time simply reading?
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/wadi1.html
he wrote in Jumd of the year seven
and twenty (i.e., 27 AH).http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hajri.html
This inscription was written
in Jumada II
of the year one and thirty.http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/basra.html
Made in Basra in year nine and sixty
That last one was interesting, never realized ?made in? was that old. lol
In addition, no abrogation within Quran
They get ? (1/8 if child) of inheritance 412 after year of maintenance 2240 if set aside.http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=6494
Seems most the traditionalists commentaries, interpretations, word insertions, etc. were a work around to rob widows and daughters of there legal and rightful bequests.
Peace
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2234?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
A clear verse and as with all directives, Quran is best read exactly as stated without added preconceptions (?) to be understood as one would at the time simply reading?
Seems most the traditionalists commentaries, interpretations, word insertions, etc. were a work around to rob widows and daughters of there legal and rightful bequests.
81.8 When the female, buried alive, is questioned
81.9 For what crime she was humiliated