Doesn't 361 solve the 9:128-129 and Hafs and Warsh issues?

Pseudo

Unfortunately when citing verses 5677, you missed the Hamza in the word ?Quran?
5677
This is an honorable Quran.
1 (&#1575 - 50 (&#1606- 5 (&#1607- 30 (&#1604- 100 (&#1602- 200(&#1585 - 1(&#1569 -1( )- 50(&#1606- 20( )-200(&#1585- 10(&#1610- 40 (&#1605 GV 708

Right like the little thingy in caf?,

Which letter in Arabic Alphabet is hamza, when was it included, tell us the story?

Why is its GV value = 1?

Why not included in geometric values?

Have you consistently included this in ALL your calculations, and those of your idol?

I doubt you will ever find the word Quran without Hamza.

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Can it be some type of MONSTER coincidence?

No, if no 19, nothing to entice anyone to it. You see it works with all verses
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg190690#msg190690

Or would you rather react like Pharaoh and his people?

The magicians used deceptive tactics, diversion, hamza, cluttered posts, bad inconsistent math.

as stated in 9128, when God alone is Merciful?

FALSE RaHMaN 57 times in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597645.0

Bismillah ( &#1607, and thus excluding 9128-129

False #of BiSM in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.0

(an extra word God occurs in 9129);

Re # Allah in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg194138#new

Peace

Bigmo

Dear Farida, Pseudo, Ahmad and all, Salaam, and thank you very much for participating in this crucial debate.

Pseudo, firstly, I want to thank you because you took the time to verify the gematrical values of verses. Unfortunately when citing verses 5677, you missed the Hamza in the word ?Quran?
5677
This is an honorable Quran.
1 (&#1575 - 50 (&#1606- 5 (&#1607- 30 (&#1604- 100 (&#1602- 200(&#1585 - 1(&#1569 -1( )- 50(&#1606- 20( )-200(&#1585- 10(&#1610- 40 (&#1605 GV 708
Therefore, yes the 17 verses multiple of 361 in the normal order of Quran have a gematrical value of 59109 = 19x3111.
I don?t know many people who will follow you if you claim the word Quran is written without a Hamza in Quranic Arabic. Go to a library and open any Quran, I doubt you will ever find the word Quran without Hamza. And let?s say you found one, wouldn?t you be entitled to question the authenticity of such a Quran, especially if it contradicts all the others?
By the way, anyone can verify the gematrical value counts of verses @ http//www.quranix.net/

You aligned in your post many numbers and pointed at all the ones which were not multiple of 19. I am sorry to say that this is not what the miracle of 361 is about.
361 follows a consistent system. It is absolutely not about generating random multiples, following multiple rules.

In the Hafs numbering system of the Quran (which numbering system differs greatly from the Warsh version) we select all verses which are double multiple of 19 (the 361st verse, the 722nd, the 1083rd ?.that is to say all double multiples allowed by the Quranic numbering system. There are 17 verses, which gematrical values are multiple of 19 59109 = 19x3111.
Please note Specifically gematrical values are multiple of 19.
If you separate in the 17 verses, verses with ?God? from the ones without God, You still come up with two separate sub groups multiple of 19
The gematrical value of the 3 verses with God is 9633 = 19x507.
Please note Specifically gematrical values are multiple of 19.
Let us now select, exactly in the same way, all verses multiple of 361 starting counting reverse from the end of the Quran instead of from the beginning you still get 17 different verses, spaced exactly every 361 verses. The total gematrical value of all 17 verses (adding the mathematical values of every letter in the 17 verses) is again multiple of 19 58748 = 19x3092.
Please note Specifically gematrical values are multiple of 19.
If you again separate verses which contain the word ?God? from the ones which do not, you again witness two separate sub groups multiple of 19.
The addition of gematrical values of all letters in the 6 verses which contain ?God? is 34010 = 19x1790.
Please note Specifically gematrical values are multiple of 19.
The grand total of gematrical values of 361 normal order of the Quran is 59109 = 19x3111. The grand total of gematrical values of 361 reverse order of the Quran is 58748 = 19x3092.
Let us subtract the gematrical values of 361 normal order from 361 reverse order of Quran 59109 ? 57748 = 361 = 19x19.
Please note Again, the difference of (Specifically) gematrical values are multiple of 19.

Now do we have a consistent system (verses multiple of 361) in the normal and reverse order of Quran, based specifically on gematrical values being multiple of 19, or do we have a bunch of nonsensical multiples which never follow the same rule?
Let?s say you found a version of Quran where one gematrical value differs from the 34 verses in 361 as displayed in the Hafs version, what would you have to say about the FACT that 361 (exactly) separates the gematrical values in the two systems where verses are multiples of 361? Can it be some type of MONSTER coincidence?

If I give you a password to open the vault of a bank which contains a magnificent miracle and treasure (like 361), would you still claim that the password is incorrect (that you need to include 9128-129 in the password), even though the door to the vault is wide open, with the miracle in the eyes of everyone (!!!!!), simply because what you see endangers what you have thus far believed?

Or would you rather react like Pharaoh and his people?
1076 When the truth came to them from us, they said, "This is obviously magic!" (Moses staff turned into a giant snake) 1077 Moses said, "Is this how you describe the truth when it comes to you? Is this magic? How can any magicians prevail?" 1078 They said, "Did you come to divert us from what we found our parents doing, and to attain positions of prominence for yourselves? We will never join you as believers." 1079 Pharaoh said, "Bring to me every experienced magician." 1080 When the magicians came, Moses said to them, "Throw whatever you are going to throw." 1081 When they threw, Moses said, "What you have produced is magic, and GOD will make it fail. GOD does not support the transgressors' work." 1082 GOD establishes the truth with His Word, despite the criminals. (1444th verse in Quran, 361 x 4). (Eventually Moses? snake swallowed the baseless magic like 361 swallowed 9128-129).
Remark 1082 is the only gematrical value multiple of 19 in the 34 verses of the 361 system; Its significance is heavy and is extensively explained in the main article on 361
http//www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

Some people may say Why do you separate verses with the word ?God??

Firstly I will say that without any doubt ?Allah? is by far the most important word in the Quran, in the heavens and the earth.
Secondly, people who study carefully the main article 361 will find that ?God establishes the truth with His Word (The Quran)? and that He used specifically His own name (Allah) to defeat those who distort the scripture

378 Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter the lie (GV 722 = 361x2) and attribute them to GOD (361st occurrence), knowingly.
Is it a coincidence if ?God? occurs for the 361st time in 378 and is associated with the word Lie (GV 722 = 361x2, like two false verses)?
Those who study the main article 361 will notice that it is an overwhelming and consistent pattern that gematrical values of numerous consistent and meaningful systems are multiple of 19 and sometimes even 361. At one point 361 becomes a miracle on its own, see sections 4.3.1 and 4.3.2 @
http//www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

361 proclaims the death of 9128-129 simply because if you include them, the fact that ?Over it is 19? (7430) becomes veiled or hidden a miraculous convergence of properties associated with the miracle of 19 cannot be visible anymore (http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm).
If you remove the smoke screen that the magician (satan) added to Quran, ?everything? (GV 361) connects again, because the password is restored. By the way, for those who studied 361, it actually swallows the smoke screen like Moses? snake swallowed falsehood.

Do you prefer Quran with or without the smoke screen?
Do you believe that, as satan claims it, Muhammad is ?Raheem? (Merciful), as stated in 9128, when God alone is Merciful?
All 114 suras (19x6) but one (sura 9, where the false verses were added) are blessed by the Bismillah (In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful, expression which occurs 114 times (19x6) in Quran). Still, Allah (&#1607 decided to bless with His own Glorious name (&#1607 sura 9 in a hidden manner There are 168 words God (&#1607 in sura 9 (up to the last verse 9127), gematrical value of?.Bismillah ( &#1607, and thus excluding 9128-129 from God?s blessing (an extra word God occurs in 9129); blessing He signed with His own name.
Which of your lord?s marvels can you deny?
Who wants to be excluded from God?s blessing on the Day of Judgment, like He excluded 9128-129, and like He has already excluded satan? Such is the real issue we are facing here in this debate. Only the sincere will be capable to see and accept God?s miracle (5679), 19.

361 exposes also the Warsh version as being a corruption of the word of God. The Hafs numbering system, with the exception of 9128-129 is the one approved by God Almighty, otherwise the mathematical miracle would not connect.

May the peace of God be with you. always.

Pierre

I am bad in math but I do not understand whats the problem with raheem? The Koran says Abraham was "awah" and uses many adjectives on many prophets. Jesus in fact has very strong adjectives used on him in the Koran. I still do not understand what the fuss about the last 2 verses in chapter 9 is about. Surely if people wanted to tamper and could actually do it why would they waste their time in these two verses which doesn't achieve anything? There are much more important things for the pagans to tamper with than these two verses.

I basically believe if they were able to tamper with the Koran we would not have had hadiths. And if anything no other variant of the Koran has been found to this day. Its either different chronolgy but the text is the same or different vowel signs but the text is the same. Either way the text is the same. Plus you can always tell when a koranic verse is being recited. Just look at the different tone between the Koran and hadith.

Pseudo

Pseudo, firstly, I want to thank you because you took the time to verify the gematrical values of verses. Unfortunately when citing verses 5677, you missed the Hamza in the word ?Quran?
5677
This is an honorable Quran.
1 (&#1575 - 50 (&#1606- 5 (&#1607- 30 (&#1604- 100 (&#1602- 200(&#1585 - 1(&#1569 -1( )- 50(&#1606- 20( )-200(&#1585- 10(&#1610- 40 (&#1605 GV 708

To add to my post above...did you also add hamza +1 to GV value in verse below?

(2792)

Waan atluwa alqur-ana famani ihtada fa-innama yahtadee linafsihi waman dalla faqul innama ana mina almunthireena

What about all these, did you calculate correctly?

Hamza (&#1569 the glottal stop .
Hamza is not one of the 28 "full" letters
The hamza can be written alone or with a carrier, in which case it becomes a diacritic
Alone ;
Combined with a letter
and (above and under an alif)
(above a ww)
(above a dotless y, also called y hamza)

6619

Dear Pseudo and all salaam,

The magicians used deceptive tactics, diversion, hamza, cluttered posts, bad inconsistent math.

Using the same method repeatedly and having gematrical values specifically being multiple of 19 Is not bad math but a profound consistent system that cannot be coincidental. You did not provide anything of value claiming it is bad math except for an empty statement, please give concrete examples why regarding 361 proofs #1 to #5 (http//www.islamrevolution.org/361summary.htm) do not follow a consistent pattern. I like facts, not empty claims or jumping to other issues to try to divert the attention.

Before you even get an answer from me or someone else on the forum, you assert that there is no reason why Hamza should be counted 1. Are you engaged in a debate or is your opinion already the right one, no matter what kind of answer will be provided to you? I don?t think you show a good image of yourself saying things like the above sentence.

Which letter in Arabic Alphabet is hamza, when was it included, tell us the story?
Why is its GV value = 1?

Thank you for putting the question this way, here is the story of Hamza

Quoted from Wilikipedia
Hamza (Arabic , al-hamzah) (&#1569 is a letter in the Arabic alphabet, representing the glottal stop . Hamza is not one of the 28 "full" letters, and owes its existence to historical orthographical inconsistencies in early Islamic times. In the Phoenician and Aramaic alphabets, from which the Arabic alphabet is descended, the glottal stop was expressed by leph, continued by Arabic alif. However, alif was used to express both a glottal stop, and a long vowel . To indicate that a glottal stop, and not a mere vowel, was intended, hamza was added diacritically to alif. In modern orthography, under certain circumstances, hamza may also appear on the line, as if it were a full letter, independent of an alif.

So you see, you have a clear answer why Hamza is counted 1 Historically, from languages from which Arabic descends, the glottal stop is represented by Alif (Quran is not pronounced Quran but Qur?an). Crystal clear.

To add to my post above...did you also add hamza +1 to GV value in verse below?
(2792)

The answer is obviously yes. Check http//www.quranix.net/ highlight any verse and click on the abjad sign to verify calculations.

FALSE RaHMaN 57 times in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597645.0
(an extra word God occurs in 9129);
Re # Allah in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg194138#new

Rahman occurs 57 times (19x3) in Quran TRUE.
Pseudo, you follow without knowledge what some people posted and you did not even verify, nor did you attempt to take a look at or understand the big picture of the miracle

(Al Rahman, The divine attribute of God, not verbs, derivatives...) occurs 57 (19x3) times in the Quran.
= Rahman
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32+33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57

If you add the false verses 9128129 it becomes 58, NOT a multiple of 19.

Some people try to deceive trying to add all derivatives of the root words, or plural forms, but they only deceive themselves
The pure singular form of ?name? occurs 19 times
The pure singular form of the word God occurs 2698 times, 19x142
The pure singular Form Rahman occurs 57 times, 19x3
The pure singular form Raheem occurs 114 times, 19x6

Raheem applies exclusively to God in the entire Quran, it is a test of faith. People who feel comfortable believing that Muhammad is Raheem will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment. It is an attribute of divinity, and divinity belongs to God alone.

The above is a consistent system only pure forms of words are counted (which excludes forms where possessive pronouns are attached and unusual spellings)
I explained in detail the issue in part II of http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm. If you study carefully the issue and you cannot see that using the same system (count of pure forms) we have a statistically miraculous convergence with number 19, then I believe you are not a sincere person.
It is like with 361, it is statistically an earth shattering miracle, but some people, no matter what kind of proofs is shown to them (64,25; 7132, 1097, 3058, 3646), will decide to remain blind.
If you don?t see, compiled with proofs #1 to #4 in the summary (http//www.islamrevolution.org/361summary.htm), that subtracting the gematrical values of 361 normal and reverse order yields 361 is a profound sign from God, no one in the heavens and the earth can help you.

Since God promised to preserve the Quran (159) and we know human errors have crept even in the earliest Quran manuscripts (http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html), then how has God kept His promise to preserve the Quran?
If you have no answer then you are in trouble. We (people who acknowledge the miracle of 19) provide not just an answer but a final solution. The way God preserved the Quran is that He designed mathematical structures that guard the Quran, most notably He proclaimed that ?Over it is 19?. 19 guards Quran from alterations.

Peace

Pierre

Pseudo

Using the same method repeatedly and having gematrical values specifically being multiple of 19 Is not bad math but a profound consistent system...

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.

Thank you for putting the question this way, here is the story of Hamza

Quoted from Wilikipedia
Hamza (Arabic , al-hamzah) (&#1569 is a letter in the Arabic alphabet, representing the glottal stop . Hamza is not one of the 28 "full" letters,

You are welcome. How nineteen convenient, a fine calibration tool +/- 1 simply add hamza to get desired number.

hamza is not on GV tables
two letters with the same GV value is pointless

The answer is obviously yes. Check http//www.quranix.net/ highlight any verse and click on the abjad sign to verify calculations.

No thanks, you'all cannot add and waste a lot of people's time. From your site

Sura Verse letters GV
3 68 66 3850

Total letters = 66 with hamza 67!

Pseudo, you follow without knowledge what some people posted and you did not even verify, nor did you attempt to take a look at or understand the big picture of the miracle

I did verify posted the link for a reason, reply to it and the one on Bism

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597645.msg191035#msg191035

False #of BiSM in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.0

Raheem applies exclusively to God in the entire Quran

Go reply to it...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597570.msg189611#msg189611

Since God promised to preserve the Quran (159) and we know human errors have crept even in the earliest Quran manuscripts (http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html), then how has God kept His promise to preserve the Quran?

O' that hadith site, no thanks. Quran is not corrupt and preserved in recital, listen...

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h09fef92Q

5417 Wa Laqad Yassarn Al-Qur'na Lildhdhikri Fahal Min Muddakirin
5422 Wa Laqad Yassarn Al-Qur'na Lildhdhikri Fahal Min Muddakirin
5432 Wa Laqad Yassarn Al-Qur'na Lildhdhikri Fahal Min Muddakirin
5440 Wa Laqad Yassarn Al-Qur'na Lildhdhikri Fahal Min Muddakirin

We (people who acknowledge the miracle of 19) provide not just an answer but a final solution.

You seem lost in a mindless nineteen forest like the cultists of long ago except they were good in math. lol

Peace

6619

Salaam dear Pseudo and all,

(my response to your comments are in red)

Using the same method repeatedly and having gematrical values specifically being multiple of 19 Is not bad math but a profound consistent system...

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.

Pierre You do not say anything of substance to disprove 361 except for trying to look sophisticated. You don?t dare to face statistical facts.

Quote from 6619 on March 02, 2009, 105536 PM

Thank you for putting the question this way, here is the story of Hamza
Quoted from Wilikipedia
Hamza (Arabic , al-hamzah) (&#1569 is a letter in the Arabic alphabet, representing the glottal stop . Hamza is not one of the 28 "full" letters,

You are welcome. How nineteen convenient, a fine calibration tool +/- 1 simply add hamza to get desired number.

hamza is not on GV tables
two letters with the same GV value is pointless

Pierre Did you misquote my post to try to confuse people?
Hamza (Arabic , al-hamzah) (&#1569 is a letter in the Arabic alphabet, representing the glottal stop . Hamza is not one of the 28 "full" letters, and owes its existence to historical orthographical inconsistencies in early Islamic times. In the Phoenician and Aramaic alphabets, from which the Arabic alphabet is descended, the glottal stop was expressed by leph, continued by Arabic alif. However, alif was used to express both a glottal stop, and a long vowel . To indicate that a glottal stop, and not a mere vowel, was intended, hamza was added diacritically to alif. In modern orthography, under certain circumstances, hamza may also appear on the line, as if it were a full letter, independent of an alif.
Pseudo, you did not understand Hamza, when expressing a glottal stop, used to be Alif in the Phoenician, Aramaic and Arabic languages. Hamza has been created to mark a clear difference between the long vowel and the glottal stop. Don?t try to evade the truth Hamza is an alif when expressing a glottal stop. Period.

No thanks, you'all cannot add and waste a lot of people's time. From your site
Sura Verse letters GV
3 68 66 3850

Total letters = 66 with hamza 67!

Pierre Since when do you write Ibrahim with two alifs? Here?s a good example how the miracle of 19 separates the truth from falsehood Someone who would misspell Abraham like in the verse you cited is exposed by the miracle of 19 361 remains hidden if you modify even one single letter, like what you cited above. The calculation in 368 with 66 letters in the one approved by God. ?God establishes the truth with His words, despite the criminals? (1082).

Quote from 6619 on March 02, 2009, 105536 PM
Pseudo, you follow without knowledge what some people posted and you did not even verify, nor did you attempt to take a look at or understand the big picture of the miracle

I did verify posted the link for a reason, reply to it and the one on Bism
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597645.msg191035#msg191035

Pierre It exactly what I thought you did not study the miracle of 19 Only pure forms without possessive pronouns are counted (for instance you exclude verbal forms and possessive pronouns, like in 723;149 etc?). It is a consistent system used for all four words of the Bismillah. When you follow the system, the miracle of 19 becomes an overwhelming statistical miracle, as described by Rashad Khalifa, and new discoveries as well. If you decide proudly that one should count words differently, it is simply the proof that you willingly refuse to see the miraculous, divinely designed convergence.

False #of BiSM in Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.0

QuotePierre No it is true. The word Ism (not Bism), in its pure form, occurs 19 times. For instance, the occurrence in Bismillah is not counted because it is not the pure form (, is the pure form as in 961), but an unusual spelling (there is a reason for the unusual spelling explained @ http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm (sections 2.2, 2.3, 2.4).

Raheem applies exclusively to God in the entire Quran

Go reply to it...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597570.msg189611#msg189611
Quote from 6619 on March 02, 2009, 105536 PM
Since God promised to preserve the Quran (159) and we know human errors have crept even in the earliest Quran manuscripts (http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html), then how has God kept His promise to preserve the Quran?

Pierre This issue has already been addressed above. All three divine names in the bismillah are used exclusively to describe God in the entire Quran, and the frequency of their pure form is consistently multiple of 19. In addition, the addition of gematricalk values of the three divine names is 684 = 19x36, also GV of "al Quran al Kareem".

O' that hadith site, no thanks. Quran is not corrupt and preserved in recital, listen...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h09fef92Q

Pierre It is not a hadith, it is an article, not even from Rashad (a very imperfect human being by the way), but since you already know everything?

Peace.

Pierre

Pseudo

Pierre You do not say anything of substance to disprove 361 except for trying to look sophisticated. You don?t dare to face statistical facts.

It is obvious what you are doing is manipulating data

Desired Output = Cherry Picked Inconsistent Input

Add/delete alif and hamza until your fitna desire is met.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza

Alone ;
Combined with a letter
and (above and under an alif)
(above a ww)
(above a dotless y, also called y hamza)

It is NOT a letter, like writing d?j? vu -- markings etc added later, see examples of early writings...

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/samarqand.html

Eighth-century Qur'an
http//www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/meccaquran.html

Pierre Since when do you write Ibrahim with two alifs?

'Ibrhma

6 Arabic letters

=1 = 2 =200 =1 = 5 =10 =40

Now tell your friends before messing with their and your idol's code. lol

Quran, Hadith, and Islam
by
Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/Quran-Hadith-Islam.htm

"ABRAHAM IS DESCRIBED IN QURAN IN THE SAME WORDS; word for word.

.

(&#1781 (&#1782

Pierre It is a consistent system used for all four words of the Bismillah.

Yes consistently inconsistent absurd; we get a nineteen miracle messenger every other week it seems.

Pierre No it is true. The word Ism (not Bism), in its pure form, occurs 19 times. For instance, the occurrence in Bismillah is not counted because it is not the pure form (, is the pure form as in 961), but an unusual spelling

You should be dancing, yeah... laugh

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdPAkrgW1ko

I'm out, already wasted too much time on this stuff. Follow whatever.

Peace

6619

Salaam dear Pseudo and all,

It is obvious what you are doing is manipulating data
Desired Output = Cherry Picked Inconsistent Input
Add/delete alif and hamza until your fitna desire is met.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza
Alone ;
Combined with a letter
and (above and under an alif)
(above a ww)
(above a dotless y, also called y hamza)
It is NOT a letter, like writing d?j? vu -- markings etc added later, see examples of early writings...

Pierre No Pseudo, Hamza is only counted 1 when it is self standing (glottal stop) and I proved it replaces historically an alif 1. You are simply trying to evade the truth It doesn't work.

Quote
Pierre Since when do you write Ibrahim with two alifs?
'Ibrhma
6 Arabic letters
=1 = 2 =200 =1 = 5 =10 =40

Now tell your friends before messing with their and your idol's code. lol
Quran, Hadith, and Islam
by
Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/Quran-Hadith-Islam.htm
"ABRAHAM IS DESCRIBED IN QURAN IN THE SAME WORDS; word for word.

.

(&#1781 (&#1782

Pierre Do you realize that your Quran is in Farsi?!?!?!?!?!?! http//www.submission.org/efarsi/Quran-Hadith-Islam.htm
Who are you trying to manipulate? Here?s the Arabic Quran on submission.org
Check 368 where Ibrahim occurs http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/sura3.html

Pierre Do you not see that Ibrahim only has one Alif in 368 and elsewhere in Quran?
Incredible that you accuse us to manipulate when you are the proven manipulator! You are caught in the act.

You should be dancing, yeah...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdPAkrgW1ko
I'm out, already wasted too much time on this stuff. Follow whatever.

Pierre I don?t follow. I verify and I study. Big difference.
I don?t agree with everything Rashad said even regarding math discoveries. But he indeed was blessed with unveiling ?one of the greatest miracle? (7430).
You have rejected that ?over it is 19?.

You rejected the miraculous convergence based on a consistent system based on pure forms of words

•
Ism occurs 19 times

•
God occurs 2698 times, 19x142

•
Rahman occurs 57 times, 19x3

•
Raheem occurs 114 times, 19x6

•
Furthermore, the addition of factors combined with 19 also generates a multiple of 19 (1 + 142 + 3 + 6 = 152 = 19 x . And 8 is index of 19.

•
The Addition of gematrical vlaues of the three names of God Allah (66) + Al Rahman (329) + Al Raheem (289) = 684 = 19 x 36.

•
Number 684 (19 x 36) is also the gematrical value of ?Al Quran Al Kareem? (the holy Quran).

•
The addition of gematrical values of all verses multiples of crucial number 684 in the numbering system of Quran (the 684th verse, then the 1368th?etc until the end of the honourable Quran 9 verses total) is 25783 = 19x1357 (reference http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm)

•
There are exactly 1919 (19x101) verses in the entire Quran which include one or more of the four words of the Bismillah.

•
The addition of gematrical values of all divine attributes (without repeat) used in crucial sura 1 is 1292 = 19x68.

And so may more additional mathematical properties associated with the Bismillah alone.
You have to be blind not to see the miracle. Such a convergence cannot exist with a profound divinely designed system. It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain such a miraculous convergence and system by manipulating data or doing baseless numerology. IMPOSSIBLE.

For 361 you have rejected this

•
The addition of gematrical values of all letters found in the 17 verses multiple of 361 in the numbering system of the Quran is 59109 = 19x3111.

•
If you separate in the 17 verses, verses with ?God? from the ones without God, the gematrical value of the 3 verses with God is 9633 = 19x507.

•
Let us now select, exactly in the same way, all verses multiple of 361 starting counting reverse from the end of the Quran instead of from the beginning you still get 17 different verses, spaced exactly every 361 verses. The total gematrical value of all 17 verses is 58748 = 19x3092.

•
If you again separate verses which contain the word ?God? from the ones which do not the addition of gematrical values of all letters in the 6 verses which contain ?God? is 34010 = 19x1790.

•
The grand total of gematrical values of 361 normal order of the Quran is 59109 = 19x3111. The grand total of gematrical values of 361 reverse order of the Quran is 58748 = 19x3092. Let us subtract the gematrical values of 361 normal order from 361 reverse order of Quran 59109 ? 57748 = 361 = 19x19.

•
Aside from the word ?God?, the second most noticeable word in the 361 system is the word ?Quran?. It only occurs (twice) in 361 normal order of Quran. If we separate the two verses where the word Quran is found we get 5453 = 19x287. It is also noteworthy that there are 76 letters (19x4) in both verses.

•
Why 361? God occurs for the 361st time in the Quran in verse 378, which prophecies that Quran was going to be tampered with
378 Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they tell the lie (GV 722 = 19x19x2) and attribute it to GOD, (361st occurrence, 19x19) knowingly.

•
We notice that the 361st occurrence of God is associated with the word ?lie? GV 722 = 19x19x2, which hints at the fact two lies were going to be added to the Quran as is extensively mathematically proven in the main article 361. The true meaning of the sign of 361 in 378 is that it is meant to annihilate forever the two satanic verses 9128-129 From the above proofs and what follows, we notice a profound miraculous convergence of mathematical properties associated with number 19 and a very consistent meaningful system. 95% of the proofs are valid if and only if we exclude the two satanic verses (9128-129) from the Quran. If you include the two false verses, the mathematical miracle and convergence can no longer be witnessed and remains hidden in the unaltered Quran.

•
The last verse of sura 9 is verse 9127, and the frequency of God is multiple of 19 in the verse it is the 1273rd, 19x67th occurrence of the word God in the Quran (67 is the 19th prime number). Since the frequency of God is multiple of 19, let us build a system where we consider that verse 9127 occupies a central position, and we are going to select the 19th occurrence of God before and after 9127, thus building a three verse system (9110, 9127, 1030)
The addition of gematrical values of all letters in the three verses is 13547 = 19x713.

•
Let us now build the same system selecting the 19th verse before and after 9127 (from verse to verse both verses included), the last verse of sura 9 still occupying a central position. The addition of gematrical values of all letters in the three verses (9109, 9127, 101 is 20368 = 19x1072.

•
We saw that in 378 the 361st occurrence of God is associated with the word ?lie? (GV 722 = 361x2). It is important to note at this point that 361 is the gematrical value of the Arabic word ?everything?. The word ?everything? (GV 361) occurs for the 19th time in verse 4176 and it is striking that the 722nd (722 = 19x19x2) occurrence of the word ?God? is directly in conjunction with the word ?everything? (GV 361), pretty much like verse 378 where the 361st word God is associated with the word ?lie? (GV 722 = 19x19x2).

•
Let us again build a three verse system with verse 9127 being surrounded by the 361st occurrence of the word God before and after 9127 The addition of gematrical values of all letters in the three verse system (693, 9127, 2217) is 29241 = 19x19x81. It is astounding that the gematrical values are double multiple of 19 exactly 361 (19x19) words God before and after 9127). As if it were not enough proofs, 693 mentions people who invent ?lies? (like false verses 9128-129) and claim they can write the same as God?s revelation. Also and equally importantly, in verse 2217 (the 361st word God after 9127), the word God is directly associated with the word ?everything? ?GOD witnesses everything (GV 361)?! In other words, God witnesses ?361?, and in what manner!

•
Since, as witnessed in 378 and above, there seems to be a very crucial relationship in the Quran between the 361st occurrence of God and number 722 (GV of the word ?lie?), let us build the very same system as above, but this time adding the 722nd word God before and after verse 9127 (last verse of sura 9), the latter still occupying the same central position. We now have a five verse system (450, 693, 9127, 2217, 3329) and the addition of gematrical values of all letters in the five verse system is 37905 = 19x19x105. It is absolutely astounding that like in fact #15, we again get a grand total for gematrical values that is double multiple of 19! We have witnessed so far the miracle of 19; in addition, we are this time witnessing the miracle of 361, a miracle built inside the miracle of 19. A miracle inside the miracle! As if it were not enough statistical wonders, the factor associated with 19x19 is 105, and the frequency of God in the last verse of the system (3329) is the 19x105th occurrence of ?God? in the Quran! In the 722nd word God before 9127, God is AGAIN associated with the word ?lie? (GV 722 = 19x19x2) (!!!) like it is the case in verse 378 which prophecies that Quran was going to be tampered with.

Anyone can witness dozens of additional profound proofs @ http//www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

For anyone who has eyes to see, it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain such a miraculous convergence of multiples of 19 when specifically gematrical values are multiple or double multiple of 19, by manipulating numbers or data. Let me say it again IMPOSSIBLE.

Those who have ears to hear, let them hear, those who have eyes to see, let them see.

Peace.

Pierre

Pseudo

Dear 6619,

Pierre Do you realize that your Quran is in Farsi?!?!?!?!?!?! http//www.submission.org/efarsi/Quran-Hadith-Islam.htm

It is obvious you cannot read, your idol wrote 'Ibrhma 56 times in Arabic using 6 Arabic letters ...lol

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=76534

Browse Word

Browse Root

http//www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=7&mac=&font_name=1&font_size=8

http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran_search.htm

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/3/68

368

As for the rest of your long rant (no comment), did not read, topic should be moved to appropriate forum/trash section ? my opinion of course.

Peace

6619

Dear 6619,
It is obvious you cannot read, your idol wrote 'Ibrhma 56 times in Arabic using 6 Arabic letters ...lol
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=76534
Browse Word
Browse Root
http//www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=7&mac=&font_name=1&font_size=8
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran_search.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/3/68
368
As for the rest of your long rant (no comment), did not read, topic should be moved to appropriate forum/trash section ? my opinion of course.

Peace

Dear Pseudo and all salaam,

In the Quran as originally revealed to Muhammad, Ibrahim only has one alif. Show me one Quran from the first or second century AH with two alifs then we can talk.
Ibrahim with one alif is in any case confirmed by the earth shattering mathematical convergence of 361 for example, and you can be sure many other mathematical sub systems of the Quran.
19 is the gematrical value of Huda (Guidance). People who follow Quran alone and believe in the miracle of 19 follow God's guidance (19). 19 is what seperates truth from falsehood, and most notably exposes 9128-129 and clarifies so many aspects like we have already witnessed in this debate Hamza as a self standing letter (Glottal stop) is counted 1 for historical reasons (Hamza was an alif that expressed a glottal stop in ancient Arabic). Ibrahim only has one alif and so much more...
Openburhan and some Qurans may display 2 alifs, it simply means their Quran is tampered with and do not follow or are not aware of God's guidance (19).

What you call my long "rant" is only meant for truth seekers. They are the only ones who will read and study. The others will call it a long "rant" exposing the fact they are rude and unwilling to learn.
What in my opinion transpires from your emails is that from the very beginning of our discussion you had already decided that your mind is made up (28 and you are ready to say anything simply to satisfy your ego instead of really trying to comprehend the mathematical miracle. Remember Only the sincere can grasp it (5679). I hope you reflect on this crucial issue regarding the hereafter and I wish you well.

Peace.

Pierre

farida

Salaam,

The rumour about 9128 and 129 is not just a hadith but, Islamic history casting doubt on them. Could be justified as, nowhere in the Quran do we see prophets addressed as ?
Recently we saw another thread where early inscriptions confirms historical date ...

When did noted Islamic leader Umar ibn al-Khattab die?

According to tradition and historical accounts, a Persian soldier assassin stabbed Umar in public as the caliph was leading prayers in a mosque. Zuhayr, who may have witnessed the violent crime, recorded that Umar died in "four and twenty," which means 644 A.D.
http//my.algeria.com/forums/religion-religion/24279-first-islamic-inscription-may-solve-quran-question.html

http//dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18/islamic-inscription.html
peace

Pseudo

Peace farida,

The rumour about 9128 and 129 is not just a hadith but, Islamic history casting doubt on them. Could be justified as, nowhere in the Quran do we see prophets addressed as ?
Recently we saw another thread where early inscriptions confirms historical date ...

Following rumors bandied about by fitna infected people is not good, Quran is self explanatory...

269 Wa-inna rabbaka lahuwa alAAazeezu alrraheemu
And that your Lord He is the glorious/mighty, the merciful

1278 Qaloo ya ayyuha alAAazeezu
They said (to Joseph) "O you the glorious/mighty?

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=31378

Browse Word

Pseudo

Pierre

Now Abraham with 2 alif is conspiracy?there is no end to the manipulation. lol

Already believe Quran is from God, no need to prove anything.
Original Quran was recited, not a book that fell from the sky.

Verse 9129 intact
http//portal.unesco.org/ci/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/size/big/cat/

Copying date 2nd Century
Surah name Surat al Tawba, surat Yunus
Verses number part of 129 from surat al Tawba to 3
and part of 4 from surat Yunus

http//portal.unesco.org/ci/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3453/size/big/cat/

Copying Date 1st/2nd centuries
S#363;rah Name S?rah al-Mumtahina
Verses Part of 4 to 8 and part of 9
This page has been written in script. There is some elongation in some letters. The copyist has written the of the letter as a green circle either above it, below it, or on its right side
.

Btw, your site is missing a number of hamza in section above, no surprise?
http//www.quranix.net/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SA=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=60&SA=1

http//s5.tinypic.com/n2l7pe.jpg

Likewise most calculations are blatant deceptive manipulation, e.g.

http//submission.org/quran/app1.html

Table 4 Occurence of the Letters
"A," "L," and "M" in the
A.L.M.-Initialed Suras
Sura
No. Frequency of Occurence Total
"A" "L" "M"
2 4502 3202 2195 9899 (19x521)
3 2521 1892 1249 5662 (19x29
29 774 554 344 1672 (19x8 <--- wrong!
30 544 393 317 1254 (19x66)
31 347 297 173 817 (19x43)
32 257 155 158 570 (19x30)
8945 6493 4436 19874 (19x1046) <---- wrong!

Deliberately miscounted in numerous chapters; surah 29 should suffice as proof?

Copy/paste into word, search each letter

29 A = 812 L=550 M=341 Total = 1703 not multiple!

6619

Dear Farida, Pseudo and all salaam,

Now Abraham with 2 alif is conspiracy?there is no end to the manipulation. lol

Already believe Quran is from God, no need to prove anything.
Original Quran was recited, not a book that fell from the sky.
Verse 9129 intact
http//portal.unesco.org/ci/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/size/big/cat/
http//portal.unesco.org/ci/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3453/size/big/cat/
Btw, your site is missing a number of hamza in section above, no surprise?
http//www.quranix.net/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SA=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=60&SA=1
http//s5.tinypic.com/n2l7pe.jpg
Likewise most calculations are blatant deceptive manipulation, e.g.
http//submission.org/quran/app1.html
Deliberately miscounted in numerous chapters; surah 29 should suffice as proof?

Copy/paste into word, search each letter
29 A = 812 L=550 M=341 Total = 1703 not multiple!

9128-129 were added to sura 9 in the first century AH. No surprise to see a 2nd century document with 9128-129.
Quranix is overwhelmingly right about the way "the recitation" should be written. I do not claim there are no mistakes at all. I identified a couple mistakes as well. For a number a verses that fall within the realm of an overwhelming convergence of mathematical properties with 19 (like 361, and more), with can (thanks to the "guidance", GV 19) assert that a number of verses or even suras are 100% authentified with 19.

The process to get a Quran that is 100% pure (to the very letter) is still an ongoing process. We can at this point say without a doubt (now that we understand the sign of 361, in addition of 19) that issues like 9128-129 and the Bastatan in 769 are 100% solved. 9128-129 are not part of Quran. It is over.
I personnally believe that the count of A.L.M. in ALM initialed suras is still an ongoing debate, in spite of the recent research conducted on 19.org. It is a documented fact that an overwhelming majority of initialed suras have the frequency of their initials coded with 19. Statistically it is already too striking to deny the data we have.
There are two ways to get a 100% pure Quran

We find the original Quran written by Muhammad in His own hand, or a 100% preserved copy.
We gather all Qurans from the first centuries AH and identify more and more meaningful Quranic sub systems mathematically coded with a convergence that will reduce more and more unauthentified portions of the Quran.
At one point I am pretty confident, God willing, that everything will "click" God willing, that is to say that most likely we will see that the addition of gematrical values of every single letter in Quran is a multiple of 19, and we can expect the same for all verses with/without God, suras with/without God, and an infinity of sub-groups as well.

One way or the other, the miracle of 19 (the "guidance" from God) will be the way to confirm.

What is wonderful about the 34 verses in 361 normal and reverse order of Quran and others that fall within the realm of the same miracle (see the central position of 9127 in the article 361) is that 100% of letters of the Arabic alphabet are coded in the system, both in 361 normal and reverse order of Quran (!) people who study the system seriously will see for instance that no one can claim anymore that a Ta marbuta has a gematrical value of 400 (as we have heard from some people), because 361 confirms it is a 5 (ta marbuta is written with the same shape as a Ha, GV 5); in short 100% of gematrical values are confirmed mathematically twice with a profound and consistent mathematical system. Numerous multiple of 19 based mathematical systems already confirm and back the data in 361 as well the Mary system in sura 19 (table 2 @ http//www.islamrevolution.org/361trinityexposed.htm), the count of initials in most initialed suras, all verses number 66 in Quran, the GV of the entire sura 66, and much much more...)
For the confirmation of gematrical values of the entire Arabic alphabet, see section 212 in 361 main article
http//www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

Peace.

Pierre

Pseudo

Dear 6619,

9128-129 were added to sura 9 in the first century AH.

Ascertained reading hadith, as traditionalists claim verses on stoning are missing.

Quranix is overwhelmingly right about the way "the recitation" should be written. I do not claim there are no mistakes at all. I identified a couple mistakes as well.

Good you admit it is overwhelmingly inconsistent.

The process to get a Quran that is 100% pure (to the very letter) is still an ongoing process.

The manipulation is ongoing, verses/words deleted and misspelled using +/- 1 hamza and alif tool.

I personnally believe that the count of A.L.M. in ALM initialed suras is still an ongoing debate, in spite of the recent research conducted on 19.org.

Good you admit A.L.M. count is false and misleading as pointed out, as is A.L.R.

http//submission.org/quran/app1.html

Table 5 Occurence of the Letters
"A," "L," and "R" in the
A.L.R.-Initialed Suras
Sura
No. Frequency of Occurence Total
"A" "L" "R"
10 1319 913 257 2489 (19x131)
11 1370 794 325 2489 (19x131) <------- wrong!
12 1306 812 257 2375 (19x125)
14 585 452 160 1197 (19x63)
15 493 323 96 912 (19x4
5073 3294 1095 9462 (19x49 <------- wrong!

Deliberately miscounted; copy/paste chapter 11 into word; find/search each letter

11 A = 1419 L=793 R=323 Total = 2535 not multiple!

9128-129 are not part of Quran. It is over...
There are two ways to get a 100% pure Quran

This is 100% pure Quran, anyone with a clear mind free of the fitna can "read in context"?

9126-129
See they not that they are put in trail once or twice every year? Yet, they turn not in repentance, nor do they learn a lesson. And whenever there comes down a S?rah, they look at one another (saying) "Does any one see you?" Then they turn away. All?h has turned their hearts because they are a people that understand not. Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He is anxious over you, for the believers full of pity, kind, compassionate. So if they turn away, say "All?h is sufficient for me. L? il?ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne."

The rest of the ?fluff? added in every post is typical nineteen fetishes? to bedazzle the na?ve and yourselves ? all you see, hear, and listen to is the fitna in your heads. The cure was posted earlier?

Go purchase 13 items, 13 gallons of gas, change sign-on to 13, write 13 posts, do everything 13, kill the fitna whispers from your mind -- heal yourself!

Peace

drfazl

Peace,

Quran does not have its base on the history but the Truth from the Almighty. If any is interested to deny 9128, 129 then let him bring the evidence how those verses are antagonistic to the reality of God, Creation of heavens and the earth and every thing in between and the relationship between such realities. Read Quran in the way it should be read; but sadly enough in the case of '19 ners' they do not ponder upon the verses; but to the contrary, they entertain themselves trying to contain the quran within the hell fire surrounded by the guards 19. By using 19 they wish to keep the quran in the hell. Yet Quran is mightier than all His creations in such a way that the verses of it has the power over every default option such as RK's code 19, 361 etc. The verses 9 128, 129 of the Quran had blasted away the face of RK and his code 19!

6619

Salaam to all,

Peace,

Quran does not have its base on the history but the Truth from the Almighty. If any is interested to deny 9128, 129 then let him bring the evidence how those verses are antagonistic to the reality of God, Creation of heavens and the earth and every thing in between and the relationship between such realities. Read Quran in the way it should be read; but sadly enough in the case of '19 ners' they do not ponder upon the verses; but to the contrary, they entertain themselves trying to contain the quran within the hell fire surrounded by the guards 19. By using 19 they wish to keep the quran in the hell. Yet Quran is mightier than all His creations in such a way that the verses of it has the power over every default option such as RK's code 19, 361 etc. The verses 9 128, 129 of the Quran had blasted away the face of RK and his code 19!

Still today many people rejoice that Rashad Khalifa was assassinated. He was stabbed 29 times and God manifested one of the greatest miracle with his death
http//www.islamrevolution.org/rashadsdeathandsura19.htm

Again, people who hate the truth will decide to remain blind even after witnessing the earth shattering miracle that surrounds his death!

People who have critized 19 or 361 on this thread have not addressed the statistical challenge and miraculous convergence described. They always try to find a way out claiming that such word should be written a different way, such gematrical value is wrong, change subjects, they always find excuses but the laws of statistics and common sense are mind blowing for people who have not decided in advance to reject the miracle no matter what and accept to open their eyes and face the big picture of the facts.
http//www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

God does not manifest miracles to mislead people but to guide them The gematrical value of "guide" (huda) is 19! But maybe someone is going to tell me the word should be written a different way!
Those who have eyes to see let them see! Those who have ears to ear, let them hear!

Peace.

Pierre

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Pierre,

I see you've done a lot of research on this issue. Thanks for presenting this excellent information regarding the factors of the "code 19 concept", and may G-d be the judge in all our disputes. For a certainty, He is the most knowledgeable and wise...

Peace and best wishes,

Ahmad

drfazl

Salaam to all,

Those who have eyes to see let them see! Those who have ears to ear, let them hear!

Peace.

Pierre

One very important thing to be considered after the eyes and the ears - the heart! If you have the understanding heart please explain 9-128, 129 as to how in content and substance they are against or are contradicting all the rest of the ayats of Quran.

Peace.

.

6619

One very important thing to be considered after the eyes and the ears - the heart! If you have the understanding heart please explain 9-128, 129 as to how in content and substance they are against or are contradicting all the rest of the ayats of Quran.

Peace.
.

Salaam drfazl and all,

You said it absolutely right Your heart will tell you if 9128-129 are part of Quran, IF and only IF you have a good heart, that is to say if you are sincere.

Sura 9 is the only sura that doesn't start with the four worded Bismillah. The Bismillah is the way God blesses each and every sura.
Why wasn't sura 9 blessed with the 19 lettered Bismillah? it is obvious something has to be wrong with sura 9. Actually God blessed it in a hidden manner With His NAME.
There are 168 words God (GV Bismillah) up to 9127, the true last verse of sura 9. 9128-129 do not fall into the realm of God's benediction.
In addition Muhammad is called Raheem in the false verses, which is a divine attribute reserved to God alone in the entire Quran. If you have a good heart, your heart will speak to you.
If you take the time to read and study the article on Islamrevolution.org on 9128-129, you should have answers to all kind of questions http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm

Personnally I have absolute certainty that 9128-129 are not part of Quran, I would accept to leave planet earth right away without hesitation if I happened to be wrong. This is how certain I am. God is my witness.

Peace and God bless.

Pierre