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The Prayer Issue Revived

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  • B Offline
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    Bigmo
    wrote on last edited by
    #95

    Bigmo + Ahmed

    Salaam brothers

    @ Bigmo,

    Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
    So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
    which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
    off the top of my head.

    @ Ahmed

    Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
    then an accusation of forgery/fabrication

    ...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
    "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79

    "So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
    "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
    Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
    446

    Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
    And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
    falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
    clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
    the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
    redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.

    PeAcE

    The verse reads like this

    4.46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.

    The other verse you quote is not verse 2-78-79, its only 2-79

    Verse 2-78 is

    2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

    Umiyeen is not linguistic illiterate but illiterate about the scriptures. Its not saying the Book itself has been tampered but perhaps some attempt was made by some. You must look at all the verses in the Koran regarding this subject and not made judgement based on how you intepret a single verse especially if it goes against the rest of the Koran concerning this matter. The Koran says

    3.93. All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

    Also

    3.78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

    Lets look at the context of verse 2-79 since its the only verse people can misunderstand

    Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say "We believe" But when they meet each other in private, they say "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)? Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (276-80)

    So in anyways the verses are talking about people during Muhammad's time who wanted to show the Talmud as authentic teachings of the Torah. The fire would not touch us is a Talmudic quote. Also the verse says they were trying to deceive Muhammad by telling him this is the teachings of the Torah when its not. They did not want to argue with him regarding the authenticity of the Talmud. The Koran says

    Sura 10) 94 If you are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, question those who have been reading the Book (Scriptures)from before you the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord so be in no wise of those who are in doubt

    (Sura 3) 93 Say (to Israel) Bring the Tawrat and study it if you are men of truth. If any after this invent a lie and attribute it to Allah they are indeed unjust wrong-doers

    So it seems some people around him from the Jews tried to deceive him, thus the verse

    2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

    2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

    The Book itself was with those who have knowledge of it and not these Umiyeen, they are just a bunch of neocons playing propaganda. The Book itself was with the Rabbis. The Koran says ask those who read the scriptures before you, meaning the men of knowledge.

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      c0de
      wrote on last edited by
      #96

      @ Bigmo

      You do realize that my argument is not just based on those verses right?
      So the article which you are providing is irrelevant at this point bro.
      Refer to my previous response for specifics.

      PeAcE

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        Bigmo
        wrote on last edited by
        #97

        @ Bigmo

        You do realize that my argument is not just based on those verses right?
        So the article which you are providing is irrelevant at this point bro.
        Refer to my previous response for specifics.

        PeAcE

        Don't worry C0de, you are not the only one who can't stomach the previous scriptures. Not by a long shot. You're in good company here.

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          c0de
          wrote on last edited by
          #98

          Don't worry C0de, you are not the only one who can't stomach the previous scriptures. Not by a long shot. You're in good company here.

          You'd be surprised at what I can stomach... But this isn't about that. It is about what the Quran says vs. the Tanakh.

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            Rami
            wrote on last edited by
            #99

            You'd be surprised at what I can stomach... But this isn't about that. It is about what the Quran says vs. the Tanakh.

            Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

            1. The Pharaoh Dilemma

            Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

            Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

            Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

            Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

            Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

            NO COMMENT.

            1. The Divorce Loophole

            We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

            Peace,

            Rami

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              c0de
              wrote on last edited by
              #100

              @ Rami

              Dude, thanks for that useful intell. There are so many of these "loopholes"
              in Judaism because of their shaky scriptures, its even kinda funny.

              PeAcE

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              • B Offline
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                Bigmo
                wrote on last edited by
                #101

                Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

                1. The Pharaoh Dilemma

                Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

                Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

                Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

                Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

                Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

                NO COMMENT.

                1. The Divorce Loophole

                We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

                Peace,

                Rami

                There are many prophets in the Torah. Which prophetic traditions are you relying on from the Torah when you say divorce should be so and so.

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                  Ahmad_Bilal
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #102

                  Peace Rami,

                  Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

                  Ummm... Okay...

                  1. The Pharaoh Dilemma

                  Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

                  Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

                  Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

                  Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

                  Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

                  NO COMMENT.

                  rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )

                  1. The Divorce Loophole

                  We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

                  You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

                  Peace,

                  Ahmad

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                    c0de
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #103

                    Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

                    Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
                    Whether you admit it or not, is another story.

                    PeAcE

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                      Ahmad_Bilal
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #104

                      Peace c0de,

                      Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
                      Whether you admit it or not, is another story.

                      Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...

                      Peace,

                      Ahmad

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                        c0de
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #105

                        Peace c0de,

                        Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...

                        Peace,

                        Ahmad

                        It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.
                        But if you feel it ok to repeat, then I shall to

                        An admissibility of its laws is not an admission of its perfection.

                        plus

                        Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
                        So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
                        which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
                        off the top of my head.

                        and also

                        @ Ahmed

                        Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
                        then an accusation of forgery/fabrication

                        ...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
                        "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 279

                        "So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
                        "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
                        Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
                        446

                        Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
                        And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
                        falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
                        clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
                        the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
                        redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.

                        PeAcE

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                          Ahmad_Bilal
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #106

                          Peace c0de,

                          It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.

                          And, like I've already stated several times, you haven't proven anything. Neither the Book of Kings or the Psalms are part of the Torah. So, if these contain errors, then what does this have to do with the sureness of the Torah itself? NOTHING... Also, you placed "quotation marks" around the word scripture, while we know in the Qur'aan, these markings are not there. So, how do you know the people were writing false "scripture"? And how do you know this was referring to the Torah? For all we know, this could be referring to the scribes writing 9128, 129 into the Qur'aan after Muhammad's death! There's no proof that any scribes literally wrote ANYTHING into the Torah scrolls themselves, and this is why they found it necessary to write extensive commentaries on the scriptures in the form of the Talmud.

                          Regarding the story of Solomon, this point has no relevance at all. The scriptures are talking about two completely different time periods and incidents, not the same one. While the Qur'aan gives a more "righteous and infallible" view of the prophets (in many instances), the Torah gives deeper insight into their righteous and wicked behaviors. This is why Jews adamantly refuse to acknowledge the infallibility of any Jewish prophets. This is different from the Qur'aan, especially considering the fact that many sectarian Muslims view the prophets as "perfect" and "sinless", a concept that is totally foreign in the Torah and Jewish history... Sure, the Qur'aan doesn't mention the transgression of Solomon. Big deal! It also doesn't mention the issue concerning David and Bathsheba. It doesn't mention the exodus and destruction of Jerusalem. It doesn't give the details regarding Jonas and his attempt to run away from G-d. It doesn't give insight regarding Elijah and Elisha, information that is of specific importance in Jewish history. In fact, it doesn't even relate which of Abraham's sons was placed on the altar (i.e. Ishmael or Isaac). It doesn't annotate the lineage of the mashiach, and it doesn't even give any details regarding the role of the mashiach at all. So, you're telling me that, just because these things, people, and incidents are directly mentioned in the Qur'aan, they never happened or existed?!

                          The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...

                          Peace,

                          Ahmad

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                            Rami
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #107

                            rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )

                            Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.

                            You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

                            Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.

                            Peace,

                            Rami

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                              Rami
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #108

                              Another one on the house....

                              Exd 712 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

                              2065 They said O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down.
                              2066 He said No, you cast down. So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving.

                              Mutually exclusive. The authors of Torah say Aaron is one who threw the rod and they believe in dark demonic powers creating things. In the Quran, the magicians rods appears to be like snakes but they can't be because the Spirit belongs to God. And Moses is the thrower.

                              Peace,

                              Rami

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                                c0de
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #109

                                @ Ahmed

                                Neither the Book of Kings or the Psalms are part of the Torah.

                                Actually, as you will see soon, the Torah itself contains errors in the form of contradictions with the Quran as well.
                                But first, let me remind you that I never said that the Book of Kings and the Psalms were part of the Torah, I said
                                they were part of the Tanakh, which you were earlier claiming as being without errors.... remember?

                                First you said that only the Talmud contained errors, and the Tanakh was error free. Now you are (half) admitting
                                that the Tanakh AND talmud contain errors, but are still claiming that the Torah is error free... but you are still wrong.
                                Observe

                                So, if these contain errors, then what does this have to do with the sureness of the Torah itself?

                                The Torah also contradicts the Quran, (in several places) and therefore it is automatically imperfect.
                                Just one example is the book of Exodus (215-22) versus the story in the Quran of
                                Moses PBUH fleeing from Egypt (Sura 2823-2. In Exodus, there were 7 women,
                                all daughters of the same man. In the Quran, there are 2 daughters.

                                In Exodus, the agreement between the father and Moses PBUH is also absent, but
                                what is most interesting is that a similar agreement is mentioned in Genesis, but
                                this time the Prophet Jacob PBUH is mentioned. (Genesis 291-30). This discrepancy
                                fits in perfectly with the Quranic criticism of the Jews

                                "Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say
                                We have heard and we disobey..."
                                The Quran Chapter 4 Verse 46

                                The Jews and the Christians charge the Quran with being imperfect because of these
                                contradictions with the Torah. But we know that the version of events in the Quran
                                is perfect, while the Torah is not.

                                Regarding the story of Solomon, this point has no relevance at all. The scriptures are talking about two completely different time periods and incidents, not the same one. While the Qur'aan gives a more "righteous and infallible" view of the prophets (in many instances), the Torah gives deeper insight into their righteous and wicked behaviors.

                                The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...

                                This is a major contradiction. The Quran and the Torah/Tanakh can not be equally correct because they both contradict
                                each other. We are not talking about details, we are talking about contradictions. So you have to decide which version you consider
                                more accurate. Solomon PBUH could not have been a heretic because he is redeemed and spoken of highly in the Quran. There were not
                                7 daughters, but 2. You either accept the supremacy of the Jewish scriptures, or the Quran. You can NOT claim that they are both equally
                                accurate.

                                PeAcE

                                p.s. Rami has also provided you with further errors in the Torah itself.
                                All of which contradict the versions of the events in the Quran.

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                                  Rami
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #110

                                  Peace,

                                  All these contradictions are benign. Now lets look at a very dangerous one! One that can literally destroy the world!

                                  Deu 2320 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

                                  4161 And for their taking of usury, while they were told not to do so, and for their consuming peoples money unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers amongst them a painful retribution.
                                  2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
                                  2279 And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.

                                  Muslims and Jews are destined to fight each other. The Jewish Forces that want to control the world via the usurious banking system are codenamed the NWO. While the opposing force that rejects usury are called the 'Terrorists' D. Fasten your seatbelt and prepare yourself for some unpretty fireworks.

                                  Peace??

                                  Rami

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                                    c0de
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #111

                                    The Jews don't really have anything to do with control of the NWO dude...
                                    They are being played like everyone else. The banking elite don't really have
                                    a religion... (unless you consider unadulterated materialism a "religion" (I do)).

                                    And Muslims and Jews are not destined to fight each other... The Israelis
                                    and the Arabs are destined to fight each other... according to the dictates
                                    of the 1922 settlement created by the imperial powers... The coming wars
                                    have nothing to do with religion... just wanted to make that clear.

                                    There are no "good" sides here. The Muslims today are just as much part of
                                    the system as anyone else.

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                                      Ahmad_Bilal
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #112

                                      Peace Rami,

                                      Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.

                                      Ummm... Okay, what does this prove? Because the Torah doesn't mention the name of the Pharaoh, this makes the complete account fabricated? You've gotta be kidding me, man... This is not "heresy" at all, and it's just a lack of information. The Qur'aan doesn't mention the Pharaoh's name either, nor does it mention Melchizedek at all. Pharaoh wasn't used as a name in the Torah, it's a title. Therefore, there's a pharaoh. After he dies, his successor becomes... ANOTHER PHARAOH, and then another one. The title of "pharaoh" is NEVER used anywhere as a name, it's used as a title...

                                      Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.

                                      This is another addition added into the Gemarra and placed in the Rabbinical Talmud. It doesn't appear in the Torah...

                                      Another one on the house....

                                      Exd 712 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

                                      2065 They said ?O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down.?
                                      2066 He said ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving.

                                      Mutually exclusive. The authors of Torah say Aaron is one who threw the rod and they believe in dark demonic powers creating things. In the Quran, the magicians rods appears to be like snakes but they can't be because the Spirit belongs to God. And Moses is the thrower.

                                      This must be a joke... In the Biblical account, Moses is the thrower, and nothing says that Aaron threw down the rod. It simply says that the rod originally belonged to Aaron, and it was passed along to Moses... The aspect of the rods "transforming" into (or appearing to be) serpents is not a contradiction at all. The Qur'aan says the same thing. It just emphasizes that their rods were still RODS, not actual serpents, regardless of what they looked like. The account it the same in both books...

                                      All these contradictions are benign. Now lets look at a very dangerous one! One that can literally destroy the world!

                                      Deu 2320 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

                                      4161 And for their taking of usury, while they were told not to do so, and for their consuming people?s money unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers amongst them a painful retribution.
                                      2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
                                      2279 And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.

                                      This is not a contradiction. The Jews were condemned for usury against their own people, which is emphasized in the Qur'aan. This is why the Qur'aan encourages them to 'GIVE UP' their usury towards the Gentiles, since these previously were not forbidden... I don't know what your view of the "NWO" and the end of the world is, but it sounds like it's built on a political conspiracy theory, most of which are completely absurd and illogical.

                                      Peace,

                                      Ahmad

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                                        Real_Truth
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #113

                                        The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...

                                        Peace,

                                        Ahmad

                                        I mostly agree quran leaves out a lot of information because it was only sent to restore the true message. If the quran doesn't say otherwise, we must believe the torah. Quran is from a GOD perspective not a gentile ). Solomon isn't appeared infallible, He got so addicted with horses he missed his prayer time.

                                        Peace

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                                          Real_Truth
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #114

                                          The Jews and the Christians charge the Quran with being imperfect because of these
                                          contradictions with the Torah. But we know that the version of events in the Quran
                                          is perfect, while the Torah is not.

                                          Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran

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