4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing

Tlepsh

Peace Wakas and all,

In my opinion verse 4.16 is a continuation of verse 4.15. Both verses form one statement and it is about fahisha.

In 415 The women who commit fahisha are 3 or more women (allati) and they are from your women (min nisaikum). It is assured that they are from our women.

In 4.16 Fahisha is committed by two person (Allazani) from among you. (not from among your men) not (min rijalikum) or not (min nisaikum) but it is (minkum).

So this means Allazani are two persons either (two men) or (one man and one woman). If it were only two men then the word (min rijalikum) would be used instead of (minkum).

The punishment in verse 4.16 is the same punishment explained in verse 4.15. The punishment is the same punishment for the same wrong deed for men and women.

Supernaut

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective, and I've never even considered this concept at all... Even though I don't think this is the main factor of that Qur'aanic passage, it could definately be a situation that could arise that could be applicable to it, and this is certainly something to look into. Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

Peace,

Ahmad

Samia

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"? Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients? And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

Supernaut

Peace all,

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective,

Thanks

Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

You?re welcome and it?s not an original opinion.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"?

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients?

Well, for a business to survive ? and make no mistake, sex is big business ? there has to be consumers.

And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

There will always be perverts. Perverts are here to stay, but the muslim community will not have to abide them if prostitutes who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction will be kept under protective custody till the god makes it alright for them to leave their homes or creates job opportunities for them, etc.

Samia

Peace all,

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Why, then is it is the dual while "prostitutes" are in the plural?

Well, for a business to survive and make no mistake, sex is big business there has to be consumers.

And when the goods are not available, they will seek them somewhere else paedophilia, rape...
The problem of prostitution cannot be solved by punishing prostitutes or simply keeping them off the street. They are not the only "culprits", and may even be the victims.

Tlepsh

Peace All,

415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

4.16 The two who comit it from amongst you, than you shall punish both of them. If they repend and amend, than leave them alone. God is redeemer, compassionate.

4.17 God?s acceptance and repentance is only for those who commit evil once (&#1614 out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God. God is knowledgeable, wise.

4.18 There will be no repentance for those who commit evil repeatedly (&#1616 until death comes upon one of them, then he says, ?I repent now!? Nor there will be repentance for those who die while they are ingrates. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.

I think we have to read the whole passage from verse 4.15 to 4.18 to understand what is meant more correctly.

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Tlepsh,

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

mmouhammad

Salaam mmouhammad, all

Many comments

Salam Samia, all

Thank you for your comments; it is such comments that create awareness of other possible meanings.

From the Reading we all understand that there are more than one type of Fahisha and each Fahisha is punishable differently and according to who are involved and in what circumstances.

I understood the following thus far, please read with me and comment if you will.

The Zina "" and its punishment are discussed in verse 242. This verse, verse 243 and verse 424 require more discussions though.

The Fahisha, which now I think is prostitution type and its punishment are discussed in verse 415; even though, the plural term allati is used, it indicates individual women. This type of usage is supported in Arabic and can be understood from the sequence of the sentence. In verse 415 " " is an indication of the singular meaning of allati. For example would 4 from amongst you be sufficient to attest against 100, 1000 or 100000 since the plural indicates 3 or more?

Prostitution might not be as apparent or known, as being committed by individual woman; however doubts or rumors might be circulated hence the usage of Istashidoo.
" "

Quarantine as a punishment in verse 415 is in line with this type of Fahisha and we know the importance of it at present time as it relates to sexually communicable diseases.

The Fahisha discussed in verse 416 appears to be another type and is different from the ones discussed above by means of different punishment and also appears to be applicable to different offense and offenders.
The directives in Chapter 4 are given to all People "males and females" as it starts " " hence the term "from amongst you " when used is referring to the people, males and females. " "

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals. The dual form Allazan "" indicates that the Fahisha is done between 2 people only, monogamy.

The punishment in verse 416 "" is an open form punishment, and maybe anything except death and must stop if the offenders repent.

mmouhammad

Peace Tlepsh,

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

Salam Ahmad, all

I understand verse 415 like many other verses talks about the health of the society and how to maintain it.
The directives are given to the People "Males and Female", so I would read the women in verse 415 as women from amongst you people and has nothing to do with husbands or wives.

The society in whatever form it exists is responsible to uphold and maintain God's system. From my understanding, the punishment system in the Reading is flexible and moves between maximum and minimum limits " " like in verse 415 until death terminates their lives or God makes for them a way out.

Who is to say that society's rehabilitation centers "confinement houses, quarantine and health care", that take in and educate these women about their wrong doings, train and prepare them to better fit in labour market, thus giving them more opportunities to fit well in their communities; is not God's way out for them.

As prevention measure, good societies would take into consideration the less fortunate women in their communities and establish centers that will provide enough and consistent help to at least prevent prostitution out of need.

Wakas

peace all,

NB AQ = Al Quran

Thanks for sharing your inputs. I think we are making progress due to clarifying of the translation, however I have a few questions

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals.

I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

Roshan

Also, it is commonly thought that the punishment for male homosexuality lewdness and female homosexuality lewdness is different but the word used in 416 is "faathoohuma / annoy/hurt / suffer what is disagreeable" (root alif-dhal/thal-ya) which could encompass detainment as mentioned in 415, but could also be wider. Is this theoretically correct?

Almost every time when I study a verse or verses in more detail it's like I am reading a new Quran everyday! We really need to get a decent translation!

Peace

Annoying them in 416 is , IMO, in the way mentioned in 415 (the context of 416 is 415-16). And from what I understand of this verse, it is talking about 'homosexuality', or as God calls it lewdness between members of the same sex ( the term 'homosexuality' equates that perversion with sexual intercourse).

Like the punishment for fawnication, this punishment aims to instill in society that such behaviour is wrong. Very few engage in sex/same sex perversion in front of 4 people who would testify against them.

Roshan

Tlepsh

peace all,

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

Peace Wakas and all,

Wallati is used in AQ in the following verses besides verse 4.15 And is always used to mean ?who? or ?whom? for females;

4.23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters who are residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

4.34 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great

4.127 And they seek a ruling regarding the women, Say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphan?s mothers whom you wish to marry, but have not given them what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.

12.50 And the King said ?Bring him to me.? So when the messenger came to him, he said ?Go back to your lord and ask him what was the matter regarding the women who cut their hands? My Lord is well aware of their scheming.?

24.60 And the women who are past child bearing and who do not seek to get married have no sin upon them if they put-off their garments, provided they are not adorned for beauty. And if they remain as they were, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower.

33.50 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependant. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

So probably we can translate 4.15 as follows

4.15 And any of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

Tlepsh

And may be it is better without the word "any"

4.15 And from your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

Samia

peace all,
1)
I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Roshan

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

Tlepsh

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for ?nisaa?kum? where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

For example the ?nisaa?kum? in verse 65.4 clearly means ?your women?

( &#1618

But in 4.15 it may include males as well. I do not know what term shall be used to express it in English.

( &#1618

And what is the difference between (allaa?i) in 65.4 and (allaati) in 4.15.

unknownuser

Salaam all,

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Verse numbers, originally dots/vocal stops get in the way, cause people to read out of context. It's one continuous passage, same punishment/confinement if they repent leave them alone applicable to both females and males involving all indecent sexual fetishes in public, hookers, pimps, johns, clean them up, lock them up...

And those who came/do/commit (F) with the enormous deed/atrocious deed/ugly deed/saying/adultery/fornication/homosexuality from your women, so call a witness on them (F), four from you, so if they witnessed, so hold them (F) in the houses/homes until the death makes them (F) die, or God makes for them (F) a way/means. And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God is forgiving, merciful.

wildguest1956

see also http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning1.htm

In 415-16 the Quran says "As for those of your women who are guilty of fahishah, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify, then confine them to the houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way. And the two (alladhan) who commit it (fahishah), punish (adhu) them both. But if they repent and act righteously, leave them alone. Surely, God is ever forgiving and most merciful." Chapter 5 discusses the interpretation of these verses in detail. Here we only note that in the verses ?your women? (nisa kum) either primarily means ?your wives? or at least includes wives along with some other female members of the family such as daughters. So the punishment for fahishah in this passage is meant for married women or both married and unmarried women. This means that the Quran shows a consistent pattern in either covering both the married and unmarred cases when it talks of illicit sex or dealing primarily with the married case. Thus, as we have already noted, in numerous passages it prohibits zina without any reference to the marital status of the persons involved; in 425 it explicity talks of the punishment of married slave women and compares it with that of muhsanat with some indications that muhsanat refers to married free women or at least includes married free women; in 415-16 it talks of punishment for fahishah on the part of ?your women? and once again either deals with both married and unmarried women or primarily deals with married women; and, finally, in 3330 it talks of the punishment for the hypothetical cases of fahishah committed by the nisa of the Prophet and clearly deals includes married women. In view of this consistent pattern, it is natural to view 242 as covering both the married and unmarried cases or primarily dealing, as indicated in argument 2 above, with the married case.

Samia

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

If there was no difference, why mentioning women alone (in plural) then mentioning "allathani" which could mean a man and a woman? And how is "aathuhuma" synonymous to "amsikuuhunna fil byiout until they die...."?

Salaam all,

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Inheritance verses clearly speak of "thakar & untha" to clear the ambiguity. "nsaa'" in the context of inheritance is understood as "women". In this verse, the fact that the vese addresses men and women, make one questions what "women of women" would mean. Also signaling women for fahisha without mentioning men or how to deal with them is a big problem. If you have a solution for at least the latter problem, then I am all ears.

Why does the verse mention min nisaa'ikum? Isn't "allaati" enough to show they are "women"? Same thing with allthaani why "min rijaalikum"? Does it mean only two men?

As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?

Also 4 4
who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?
Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it?
What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?
Then what's is this sadqa given to "women"? It's definitely not women.
4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
-mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
-vulenrable children
-orphans
All these three categories are under the title "women".

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for nisaakum where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

I would say "the vulnerable", "the dependants"...

Verse 654 the context (maheed) shows it means "women"

I do not know a difference between allaa'ii and allaati or even allawtii