The quraan states that the jews & christians have rejected the sanctity of Kaaba
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wakas-Where is this alleged "very clear" evidence from The Quran you refer to?
397 In it are signs manifest;
398 Say"O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah,
Very manifest (397) save to the rejectors (39
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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simple-How do you like Lanes Dictionary;
- I guess it is no worse than sunni, shiite, jew or christian literature.
-Root
B.K.T
- That's a new root for the word. Can u cite reference?
-Now the question is was Abraham here to build stone structures
- Abraham sought out his Lord, & left behind a folk who were idolaters (2152).
God ordered abraham to keep His House free of "shirk", a retreat for the worshippers (2226) & to proclaim the hajj (2227-37)
-or teach people how to overcome the then tyrant in Egypt, when he ordered to sacrifice their children but Abraham overcame the order and refused.
- Very interesting, can u tell some more?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
peace
396
the prior/former system was set up for people/mankind by the one with reprehension/reproach (xxi 64) full of blessing and a guidance for the worlds.397
Therein signs/proofs manifest about the standing of Abraham and whoever enters or takes up (his) standing becomes secure Allah has (a right) on the people to desire The system who is able to it a way and who denies then verily Allah stands not in need of the worlds.What was the system which Abraham set up for men?
Actions based on the attributes of God, or actions other then shirk.
Any country based wherein the system is based on the attributes of God will be most secure and people will want to flock to it.
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smmirza-The similarities of the rituals that 'Muslims' are doing with what the Hindus do are very striking.
The similarities between some of the beliefs of jews/"hindus" & muslims are more striking.
Are u going to abandon the quraan whenever u come across a "similarity"?
-For instance, the circambulating around this Kaaba, presence of a Zam Zam and revering the black stone. To me these things border on paganism. Why would God want us to venerate a cuboid structure and prostrate in front of it?
Where did I talk about zam zam & a black stone, & where do I say to "prostrate in front of" a cuboid structure? A sacred stone is very much a jewish concept. And a sacred dumping stone can be found at jerusalem.
What is ur idea about hajj & becca?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
I believe I misunderstood your point then. To me it seemed as if you were saying that Jews & Christians had abandoned the Kaaba. Which implies that you believe that the Kaaba is something holy/special/venerated. I will abandon all ideas that do not come from the Quran alone. Revering Kaaba in my opinion is one of them since the Quran does not talk about a Kaaba. Don't you find it strange that the Quran consistently points out that materials (idols, wealth) can avail us nothing on J-Day and that they should not be worshipped/venerated/sought; then would command us to venerate a stone cube/site?
"What is ur idea about hajj & becca?" I am still in the early stages of research on this matter and have not come to a conclusion as of yet.
God Bless!
Said Mirza -
simple-396 the prior/former system was set up for people/mankind by the one with reprehension/reproach (xxi 64) full of blessing and a guidance for the worlds.
I look forward to the simple dictionary & translation of the quran. cheerz
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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smmirza-I believe I misunderstood your point then. To me it seemed as if you were saying that Jews & Christians had abandoned the Kaaba.
- If that is what it seemed to u, u understood it perfectly.
What else do u understand by the following verses
2127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer)"Our Lord! Accept (this service) from usFor Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
2128 "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
2129 "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify themFor Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
3101 And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a way that is straight.
397 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.
398 Say"O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"
They also rejected ishmael; rejecting is their way.
-Which implies that you believe that the Kaaba is something holy/special/venerated.
- The kaaba is special/blessed as per the quraan (396)
Do u have an alternate translation?
-I will abandon all ideas that do not come from the Quran alone.
Very good.
-Revering Kaaba in my opinion is one of them since the Quran does not talk about a Kaaba.
- The quraan does not talk about a kaaba, it does talk about the kaaba.
-Don't you find it strange that the Quran consistently points out that materials (idols, wealth) can avail us nothing on J-Day and that they should not be worshipped/venerated/sought; then would command us to venerate a stone cube/site?
What I do find strange is people turning away from what God tells them; but it happens in all ages -- turning away from His signs (397). But it's all in there (3712). Our response is given in 2268.
What u seem to have misunderstood is the bit about zam zam & some rock not found in the quraan. It is unfortunate that u revered a stone, which is also a jewish idea.
-"What is ur idea about hajj & becca?" I am still in the early stages of research on this matter and have not come to a conclusion as of yet.
Evidently, the jews & christians have little clue about abraham; I wish u better luck in ur research.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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peace,
wakas-Where is this alleged "very clear" evidence from The Quran you refer to?
397 In it are signs manifest;
398 Say"O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah,
Very manifest (397) save to the rejectors (39
I do not consider the above evidence. There is no mention of the word "kaaba" there.
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Peace
Let us try to reach the truth;397 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.
there is a Clear Sign
Which one is Makam Ebrahim "the place of Ebrahim"... This one
http//www.atlastours.net/holyland/cenotaphs_of_patriarchs.jpg
or This one
http//www.addpk.com/mukame%20prophet%20ibrahim.jpg
Is this God Promise of Security
http//www.pkislam.com/main/places/B8.jpg
Please watch this
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxEjOCf0ENU&feature=related
Here is what an atheist had to conclude when he saw the flood (Floods)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=H15NOHk1Kng&feature=related
Peace
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Peace,
These verses say that many Jews and Nazarenes have rejected the "bayt" that was solidified by Abraham. However, the Qur'aan implies that this "bayt" (often translated as "house" is not a specific place, but rather, it's an idea or belief system, specifically "submission" (or monotheism). There is no evidence that Abraham or Ishmail ever went to Makka, and the Qur'aan only describes this place as a land of idolators who were rejecting Muhammad and his followers; the people of Makka were trying to keep the early submitters from reaching "almasjid alharaam". The Qur'aan clearly says that Muhammad and his followers defeated the people of this land, and they entered "almasjid alharaam", which implies that this "masjid" was not in Makka; rather, it was PAST (beyond) Makka. And this is the only reference to Makka in the Qur'aan (4824). Nowhere in any of the scriptures is this place made out to be the first (original) house of worship established by Abraham and Ishmail...
Peace,
Ahmad
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belH-Which one is Makam Ebrahim "the place of Ebrahim"... This one
The bayt of God -- a tomb? (God knows whose)
sub'haana Allaah
Would that be outdoing the jews, christians, sunnis & shiites put together.
sub'haana Allaah
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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ahmad bilal-These verses say that many Jews and Nazarenes have rejected the "bayt" that was solidified by Abraham.
- I didn't quite grasp what u mean by "solidified" here.
-However, the Qur'aan implies that this "bayt" (often translated as "house" is not a specific place, but rather, it's an idea or belief system, specifically "submission" (or monotheism).
- Can u please cite where the quraan implies that the bayt in 395 is not a specific place, & is instead a system?
397 Therein are clear signs -- the station of Abraham, and whosoever enters it is in security. It is the duty of all men towards God to come to the House a pilgrim, if he is able to make his way there. As for the unbeliever, God is All-sufficient nor needs any being.
2227 And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belH-Which one is Makam Ebrahim "the place of Ebrahim"... This one
The bayt of God -- a tomb? (God knows whose)
sub'haana Allaah
Would that be outdoing the jews, christians, sunnis & shiites put together.
sub'haana Allaah
Peace
The House of Allah, as God clearly indecating many time in Quran, "Feah Makam Ibrahim Mosla" IN IT THE PLACE OF IBRAHIM" "THE TOMB OF IBRAHIM". By the way, if you read arabic you will note that in the Tomb of Ibrhim, there is a Sign says "Makam Ibrahim".
Now if you think this is not a clear Sign and you think that the Foot Print that in front of Kabba is...Subhan Allah.Moreover, Jews and Christians to not pray in Masjed Elaqsa...hence" the people of the book rejecting the kaaba"
Peace
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belH-The House of Allah, as God clearly indecating many time in Quran, "Feah Makam Ibrahim Mosla" IN IT THE PLACE OF IBRAHIM" "THE TOMB OF IBRAHIM".
- Are u saying makaam = tomb?
And which verse says ""Feah Makam Ibrahim Mosla" ?
Effectively, u are saying that the quraan says, "in it tomb of abraham mosla"....is it.
subh'aana Allaah
-By the way, if you read arabic you will note that in the Tomb of Ibrhim, there is a Sign says "Makam Ibrahim".
- Where is this tomb of abraham?
-Now if you think this is not a clear Sign and you think that the Foot Print that in front of Kabba is...Subhan Allah.
- There might be footprints all around the kaaba. But the quraan doesn't talk about footprints.
397 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.
It seems u have given urself only two options what the jews-christians say or what the sunnis-shiites say. How about giving the quraan a try?
-Moreover, Jews and Christians to not pray in Masjed Elaqsa...hence" the people of the book rejecting the kaaba"
The aqsa masjid in jerusalem is umar's idea. Only his followers will take umar's mosque as sacred. And a sunni/jew called abdul malik did order pilgrimage to the dome of the dumping rock. Do u find him to ur satisfaction?
And, yeah....there is no jerusalem in quraan, either; let alone umar's (or anybody else's) fancy.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace "thegod",
- Can u please cite where the quraan implies that the bayt in 395 is not a specific place, & is instead a system?
The passage in 395 leads right up to this implication.
Say, "G-d is truthful, so follow the religion of Abraham, upright (monotheism). And he was not one of the idolators (those who set up partners)." (395)
That passage is immediately followed by 396...
So, that first "bayt" was raised to the people, that is/was with Bekka, having blessings and guidance to the universe. (396)
The verse doesn't say "al-baytin" (the house), it refers to SO THAT (inna) 'BAYT'. So, the only way to interpret what "bayt" the passage is speaking of, we'd have to look at the preceding verse, which mentions what Abraham set up. It wasn't a literal "house", it was a system, the same system we are instructed to follow in 395. If it was speaking of a "house" that was yet to be described, it would've said "inna al-baytini awwal". Instead, it's saying that the first system for the people was built on monotheism. And even though monotheism was set up long before Abraham, the complete system of submission, which involved worshipping G-d without partners, wasn't complete until Abraham... And again, the place of Makka is nowhere mentioned in this passage at all...
The reason the Qur'aan insists that they turned away from this "bayt" isn't because they don't acknowledge the city of Makka. The place of Makka is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah or the Injeel; so, how could they turn away from this place if they'd never even heard of it? They did, however, turn away from pure monotheism and submission by placing partners beside G-d and by taking the wisdom of humans above the wisdom of G-d. This comes in the form of rejecting the Torah for the rabbinical doctrines, as well as placing Jesus as an intercessor with G-d (some modern Christians even call Jesus 'G-d Incarnate'!, which is completely blasphemous). Therefore, by doing these things, they rejected the religion of Abraham, the monotheistic system that he set up for the people.
Peace,
Ahmad
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ahmad bilal-The verse doesn't say "al-baytin" (the house), it refers to SO THAT (inna) 'BAYT'. So, the only way to interpret what "bayt" the passage is speaking of, we'd have to look at the preceding verse, which mentions what Abraham set up. It wasn't a literal "house", it was a system, the same system we are instructed to follow in 395.
- Where is it that "inna" should be "so that"?
1081 Inna aAAtaynakaalkawthara
= So that we have given u alkauthar(?)
Still, it has been referred to as "al-bayt" in various other verses.
Further, in 2227 it talks about people coming to this bayt on foot & on various transports. Coming to an "idea" if they can, & walking & riding?
-If it was speaking of a "house" that was yet to be described, it would've said "inna al-baytini awwal".
- There is no such compulsion. Still, why would u assume that the house had never been referred to before?
-Instead, it's saying that the first system for the people was built on monotheism.
- On what has been the second system built? Where is the second system in the quraan?
-And even though monotheism was set up long before Abraham, the complete system of submission, which involved worshipping G-d without partners, wasn't complete until Abraham...
- Until abraham...."solidified" it? Could u provide relevant verses?
-And again, the place of Makka is nowhere mentioned in this passage at all...
The reason the Qur'aan insists that they turned away from this "bayt" isn't because they don't acknowledge the city of Makka. The place of Makka is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah or the Injeel; so, how could they turn away from this place if they'd never even heard of it?
- Let's talk about becca....did they hear about it?
Why did they reject ishmael? Did they not know he was an honored prophet? What happened to their knowledge?And of course, the jews' rejection of the christ. What is ur explanation?
As for the knowledge of jews & christians regarding abraham & his ways, the quraan is very clear they argue where they have little knowledge & where they have no knowledge.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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ahmad bilal- it refers to SO THAT (inna) 'BAYT'. So, the only way to interpret what "bayt" the passage is speaking of, we'd have to look at the preceding verse
1081 Inna aAAtaynakaalkawthara
= So that we have given u alkawthar
Which preceding verse do v look at to intepret this?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aakameen
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belH-The House of Allah, as God clearly indecating many time in Quran, "Feah Makam Ibrahim Mosla" IN IT THE PLACE OF IBRAHIM" "THE TOMB OF IBRAHIM".
- Are u saying makaam = tomb?
Peace
Let me ask you a Question WHERE IS THE PLACE OF ABRAHAM TODAY? Please take into consideration that Today Abraham is Dead.
And which verse says ""Feah Makam Ibrahim Mosla" ?
There is no verse that say exactly that, but it say to take the Makam of Abraham a place for prayer "Men Makam Abraham Mosla" in verses 2-125 and " Feah ayat Binat Makam Abraham", which clearly means that the CLEAR SIGN that we all can witness as Prophet Mohamed did is the place where Abraham reside Today--In His TOMB.
Effectively, u are saying that the quraan says, "in it tomb of abraham mosla"....is it.
You know what I'm trying to say, so let us not deviate from the main point, which is "THE CLEAR SIGN IS THE PLACE OF ABRAHAM AND NOT SOME FOOT PRINT"
- Where is this tomb of abraham?
Did you see the picture that I posted--Did you See Abraham and Sara Tomb in the Picture.
- There might be footprints all around the kaaba. But the quraan doesn't talk about footprints.
Did you know that the Suni call the Foot Print in front of Macca's Kaba "Makam Abrahim". Did you see the posted picture...did you see people pray in front of the Foot Print.
It seems u have given urself only two options what the jews-christians say or what the sunnis-shiites say. How about giving the quraan a try?
Show me where did I use non-quranic evidences?
The aqsa masjid in jerusalem is umar's idea. Only his followers will take umar's mosque as sacred. And a sunni/jew called abdul malik did order pilgrimage to the dome of the dumping rock. Do u find him to ur satisfaction?
I thought you do not follow Hadith...where in Quran does it say that Omar Built it....maybe some moslems expanded the place, but not built it from scratch.
Let me give you another Hint...Who was the King of the land that had Jerusalem in 1967, and lost Jerusalem in the war to the Jews? Was that Land Called the Kingdom of Hashimat? Who is the Hashimi? Is Hashimi name related to Prophet MOHAMED TRIBE?And, yeah....there is no jerusalem in quraan, either; let alone umar's (or anybody else's) fancy.
rotfl Of course the Holly Land "Al-ard El Mokadsh" is repeated many times in Quran, Injeel, and Torah.
May God Bless those who are truly seeking THE TRUTH of Their LORD.
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Peace,
396 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at BakkaFull of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings
I am not sure how you make the leap from Bakka to Mecca. I have a hard time believing that the kaaba that currently stands in Mecca has anything to do with Islam. The similarities of the rituals that 'Muslims' are doing with what the Hindus do are very striking. For instance, the circambulating around this Kaaba, presence of a Zam Zam and revering the black stone. To me these things border on paganism. Why would God want us to venerate a cuboid structure and prostrate in front of it? I remember when I went to the Umrah when I was a kid and venerated this Kaaba. In my juvenile mind I was thinking that somehow by touching this building and kissing it I was getting nearer to God. I have repented from those actions and will not do anything until I know full well what the reasons are behind it.
God Bless,
Said MirzaWe have to go with what is in the Quran as to what is correct in the eyes of Allah.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram when we pray. Not pray to it, face it.
We are told to visit the Kaaba during Hajj (Surah 215, and allowed to make circuits around the Kaaba Bayt Al-Haram/Al-Bayt Al-Ma'mur (Surah 524).No where in the Quran are we to touch or kiss a stone.
No where in the Quran are we to pray to or face the Kaaba. Even in the original Post, we see in 396 the Kaaba was the first house of worship, the first qiblah. Also established in Surah 2125.We are also warned people will keep the Truth hidden. 2146,159
Pray for guidance.
Peace and blessings.
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Peace
thegod...I have a very important Question I forgot to ask in my last postWhy do Prophet Mohamed Tomb and all His companion Tombs are in Madina and Jordan and non in Macca? I mean there is no trace of any one parried in Macca or within a close rang?
Moreover, Why all the Prophets Tombs are In Jerusalem and the surrounding area but Non in Macca or even within hundreds of Miles?
Give me a clear and reasonable answer".
Peace
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belh-Let me ask you a Question WHERE IS THE PLACE OF ABRAHAM TODAY? Please take into consideration that Today Abraham is Dead.
- First off, where did u get the idea that "makam of abraham" = his tomb?
When the quraan doesn't want us to bother about the tomb of abraham, why bother?
-There is no verse that say exactly that, but it say to take the Makam of Abraham a place for prayer "Men Makam Abraham Mosla" in verses 2-125 and " Feah ayat Binat Makam Abraham", which clearly means that the CLEAR SIGN that we all can witness as Prophet Mohamed did is the place where Abraham reside Today--In His TOMB.
- Nobody resides in a tomb....maybe a zombie would. Maybe somebody with a weird idea of residency would.
There is an interesting legend attached to the cenotaph of patriarchs
According to the midrash, the Patriarchs were buried in the cave because the cave is the threshold to the Garden of Eden. The Patriarchs are said not to be dead but "sleeping". They rise to beg mercy for their children throughout the generations. According to the Zohar, this tomb is the gateway through which souls enter into Gan Edenheaven.
There is a Jewish tradition that praying at the Tomb will bring good fortune in finding a proper spouse. There are Hebrew prayers of supplication for marriage on the walls of the Sarah cenotaph.
"Prayer" at the tomb.
-You know what I'm trying to say, so let us not deviate from the main point, which is "THE CLEAR SIGN IS THE PLACE OF ABRAHAM AND NOT SOME FOOT PRINT"
Did you know that the Suni call the Foot Print in front of Macca's Kaba "Makam Abrahim". Did you see the posted picture...did you see people pray in front of the Foot Print.
- Why are u obsessed with some footprint when the quraan doesn't mention it?
-Did you see the picture that I posted--Did you See Abraham and Sara Tomb in the Picture.
- I see some tombs of God knows who all. The quraan doesn't tell me whose tombs them be, so I won't assume.
-Show me where did I use non-quranic evidences?
- Two of the most prominent words in ur posts seem to be "tomb" & "footprint". The tomb that the jews-christians revere, & the footprint that sunnis-shiites revere. Where are these in the quraan?
What else should I deduct from ur post?
-I thought you do not follow Hadith...where in Quran does it say that Omar Built it....maybe some moslems expanded the place, but not built it from scratch.
- Well, u brought up al-aqsa of jerusalem which exists nowhere in quraan. And how could it, when umar invented it much later.
-Let me give you another Hint...Who was the King of the land that had Jerusalem in 1967, and lost Jerusalem in the war to the Jews? Was that Land Called the Kingdom of Hashimat? Who is the Hashimi? Is Hashimi name related to Prophet MOHAMED TRIBE?
- Let me give u yet another hint the quraan was revealed before 1967. (Remember, paul & sinai?)
And, I don't distinguish between sunni,shiite, jewish & christian ahadith.
-Of course the Holly Land "Al-ard El Mokadsh" is repeated many times in Quran, Injeel, and Torah.
- The quraan does talk about a holy land. It does not talk about jerusalem, if it does then let me know where.
And what can be "holy" about jerusalem, seemingly named after a pagan deity described variously as faithless, harlot, apostate, rejector, killer; nothing "holy" about those words.
-May God Bless those who are truly seeking THE TRUTH of Their LORD.
(amen)
-Why do Prophet Mohamed Tomb and all His companion Tombs are in Madina and Jordan and non in Macca? I mean there is no trace of any one parried in Macca or within a close rang?
Moreover, Why all the Prophets Tombs are In Jerusalem and the surrounding area but Non in Macca or even within hundreds of Miles?
Give me a clear and reasonable answer"
- Tell me this Where does the quran talk about the tomb of muhammad or of other prophets. Why concern urself with tombs (of God knows who all) when the quraan doesn't talk about them?
If u are interesred in legends, then here is some regarding the cenotaph of the patriarchs
The Tombs of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank, is a shrine complex built mainly under Herod (1st cent. BC) with additions by the Crusaders (12th century AD).
It centers around the Cave of Machpelah, an ancient double cave revered since at least 1000 BC as the burial site of the Hebrew patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their wives.
This is the second holiest site in Judaism after the Western Wall in Jerusalem and has been a Jewish pilgrimage destination from earliest times to today. It is also highly sacred to Muslims, who revere Abraham highly as a true prophet of God, and to Christians for the same reason.
Nearly all of what is seen today was built by Herod the Great in the 1st century BC in the same style as his Temple of Jerusalem and enclosure at Mamre, neither of which survive. It is thus of inestimable historical value as well as great sacred significance.
Today, the Tombs of the Patriarchs is the center of ongoing conflicts between Palestinians and Jews in Hebron and is therefore carefully segregated and under tight security.
It is not known when this site was first revered as the burial place of Abraham, but recent excavations of the double cave revealed artifacts from the Early Israelite Period (some 30 centuries ago). The great wall that still surrounds the Cave of Machpelah was built by Herod the Great (31-4 BC).
A shrine complex built by herod (the infant-slayer?) over a burial site (supposedly of adam, abraham, isaac & jacob).
sub'haana Allaah
Interestingly, ishamel is missing; even in fiction do they hardly overlook overlooking ishmael. Anyway, not a word about it having anything to do with the House of God. And highly revered by jews, christians, sunnis & shiites.
What do the jews & christians think about ishmael. Why does the quraan condemn them for arguing without knowledge?
Again, I remind -- this is about the bayt of God, not a shrine built by an infant-slayer(?) over tombs of God knows who.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
