4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing
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Agreed, but in that case too it will need to clarify "who is she/who are these females". After "those" their group of which they are the part need to be identified. Here the issue is regarding "fahashi" which can be done secretly individually, man in the company/alongwith another man , woman individually, or woman with woman , man with woman . Therefore gender of all words in 415 are all plural and feminine; and 416 dual masculine. A general law is laid down and the course of action for such obsessed lesbian women who are so open that even four witnesses are available, such "sick" daughters/sisters need to be restrained in their houses by their elders which will restrict their socialization with other girls/women, that may supress their "disease". Such cases are very rare but still possibilty is there for which law has been prescribed. Eye witness is necessary otherwise there is no evidence to prove any charge against lesbians. Treatment of a lesbian is only to seperate her from other women.
Here a case was reported where one woman got her self operated on the chest to play "husband", lived like and her vicinity came to know quite late that both were women. Both have been sent to jail, quite stupidly by the court.On the contrary, two men indulging in the act of alfahisata" there is no need of 4 eye witnesses. And just minor punishment has been prescribed. Except for Az-Zina, Fahashi could be done by hundreds of methods. Az-Zina is extreme Fahish but every fahish is not Az-zina.
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Therefore gender of all words in 415 are all plural and feminine; and 416 dual masculine. A general law is laid down and the course of action for such obsessed lesbian women who are so open that even four witnesses are available, such "sick" daughters/sisters need to be restrained in their houses by their elders which will restrict their socialization with other girls/women, that may supress their "disease". Such cases are very rare but still possibilty is there for which law has been prescribed. Eye witness is necessary otherwise there is no evidence to prove any charge against lesbians. Treatment of a lesbian is only to seperate her from other women.
On the contrary, two men indulging in the act of alfahisata" there is no need of 4 eye witnesses. And just minor punishment has been prescribed. Except for Az-Zina, Fahashi could be done by hundreds of methods. Az-Zina is extreme Fahish but every fahish is not Az-zina.So, acording to you, lesbianism is a "disease" that calls for the elders to restrict these "sick" daughters; but male homosexuality calls for just a minor punishment? Why? Where in the qur'aan do we have different punishment for the same sin based on gender? This is the whole problem with interpreting these verses on homosexuality and lesbianism basis or on women/men basis.
Why is it "women" but "two men" when it's about homosexuality?
The 4 eye witness is a pre-requisite for any accusation of fahisha, or else the accuser will be punished.Salam,
Are 21 years old 3rd year university students who do not work and their parents pay the tuition fees and other living expenses considered dependent? If so, then when such persons commit Fahisha, they should be confined. Does this make any sense?
Young children and orphans of all ages are dependent; do they commit Fahisha? What kind of Fahisha?
University students are not dependents. Anybody past maturity and in good physical and mental health is not a dependent. I do not know where you get this definition from. By "dependent" I meant a person who cannot survive without being dependent on some other person, and not someone who "chose" to wait for a better job. And if children do not commit fahisha, they wont be punished. Other kinds of dependents can. Just think of the mentally ill.
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So, acording to you, lesbianism is a "disease" that calls for the elders to restrict these "sick" daughters; but male homosexuality calls for just a minor punishment? Why? Where in the qur'aan do we have different punishment for the same sin based on gender? This is the whole problem with interpreting these verses on homosexuality and lesbianism basis or on women/men basis.
For women who are held guilty of lesbianism they are to be . This is not "punishment" in the criminal sense if one is asked to remain at home.
Should women take this also as punishment?can it mean more than minor punishment?
"homosexuality" amongst men is also a disease/physicall as well as psychological. If not, what is the point that the "passive" is more interested to find some active or get enjoyment from a place which has no connection with any sex cells/system?
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For women who are held guilty of lesbianism they are to be . This is not "punishment" in the criminal sense if one is asked to remain at home.
Should women take this also as punishment?can it mean more than minor punishment?
Just as house arrest is not a punishment? The verse does not say so this "keeping in the homes" is not something according to the common understanding, or whatever "bil ma3roof" means.
can it mean more than minor punishment?
It's definitely less than 100 lashes, which is considered "3thaab torture". It's open, maybe, according to their circumstances. These "rijaal" are bread winners and servers of the society, so "keeping them in the homes" makes more harm than benefit, as the society and other inncocents people depending on them will suffer.
"homosexuality" amongst men is also a disease/physicall as well as psychological. If not, what is the point that the "passive" is more interested to find some active or get enjoyment from a place which has no connection with any sex cells/system?
Actually, the passive homosexual may have more excuse than the active. On the "Y" chromosome, their's a gene that gives the male their self image as a male. If, during the crossing over of the fertilized cell, this gene is lost, its absence gives the passive image, which is that of a female. This is one of the genetic explanations.
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As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?
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who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?
Addressed are the same as in prior verse 43, men encouraged to marry widows and take care of the orphans.
43 ?And??44 ?And?...
Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it
The word has to do with kindness, charity, generosity, thus men are asked to give aid to widows with children who are less desirable for marriage than young single women.
What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?
This is matter of context, pursuing a woman for marriage for ones own interest or being asked to aid less desirable widows with orphans in distress which in my opinion is more of a godly charitable act to benefit the soul.
Inna almussaddiqeena waalmussaddiqati waaqradoo Allaha qardan hasanan yudaAAafu lahum walahum ajrun kareemun
5718 That truly the charity givers (M) and the charity givers (F) , and (if) they lent/advanced God a good/beautiful loan/ advance, (it) be doubled/multiplied for them, and for them (is) an generous reimbursement- 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
-mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
-vulenrable children
-orphans
All these three categories are under the title "women".
Yes children fall under the category of women?s issues.
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can it mean more than minor punishment?
It's definitely less than 100 lashes, which is considered "3thaab torture".Perhaps " " cannot be stretched even to one lashing. I think quite a small number of women feel pain also in periods but it is not pain equal to that of lashing. Its meanings are more in the nature of irritation. How can we stretch it to mean anything we like?
Quran tells that before the nation of Lut alaissalam no men indulged in homosexuality, and then its cause has been told which was of course not of genes, it was deliberate obsession, emotionalism. Has that part of the "passive" any link with the cells of the brain controlling sex matters?
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Quran tells that before the nation of Lut alaissalam no men indulged in homosexuality, and then its cause has been told which was of course not of genes, it was deliberate obsession, emotionalism. Has that part of the "passive" any link with the cells of the brain controlling sex matters?
Obsession and emotionalism existed before Lut, didn't they? If we believe what the qur'an says, then we have to suppose that the error is within our own understanding. The "fahisha" of the people of "Lut" was committed by both men and women (case of his wife). We were not made to understand otherwise. We have to look into the words "rijaal" and "nisaa'". In my opinion, if it were about men and women, and since it's about a biological behaviour, we would have been told that they "came unto males instead of females" and the words would have been "thukuur and inaath". My understanding is that they attcked people in the farm, street, workplace..etc and raped them. That would call for the utmost punishment because it hinders the society and make people unsafe. It also explains why Lut was afraid of them, and could really mean "a fahisha not committed by any people before".
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Obsession and emotionalism existed before Lut, didn't they? If we believe what the qur'an says, then we have to suppose that the error is within our own understanding. The "fahisha" of the people of "Lut" was committed by both men and women (case of his wife). We were not made to understand otherwise. We have to look into the words "rijaal" and "nisaa'". In my opinion, if it were about men and women, and since it's about a biological behaviour, we would have been told that they "came unto males instead of females" and the words would have been "thukuur and inaath". My understanding is that they attcked people in the farm, street, workplace..etc and raped them. That would call for the utmost punishment because it hinders the society and make people unsafe. It also explains why Lut was afraid of them, and could really mean "a fahisha not committed by any people before".
29.29 ?You sexually approach Alrijal (breadwinners),
and you commit highway robbery,?
?And you bring all vice to your society.?
But the only response from his people was to Say ?Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!?
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Obsession and emotionalism existed before Lut, didn't they? If we believe what the qur'an says, then we have to suppose that the error is within our own understanding. The "fahisha" of the people of "Lut" was committed by both men and women (case of his wife). We were not made to understand otherwise. We have to look into the words "rijaal" and "nisaa'". In my opinion, if it were about men and women, and since it's about a biological behaviour, we would have been told that they "came unto males instead of females" and the words would have been "thukuur and inaath". My understanding is that they attcked people in the farm, street, workplace..etc and raped them. That would call for the utmost punishment because it hinders the society and make people unsafe. It also explains why Lut was afraid of them, and could really mean "a fahisha not committed by any people before".
No doubt women were also obsessed with perversion but the point highlighted with emphasis is this
They were also fond of open and group sex
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In quite open and distinct manner homosexuality has been mentioned, apart from other sexual lusts. -
As if homosexual rape is worse than heterosexual rape!!
There was homo and heterosexuality, I would say they were even bisexuals. But it was not just that, it was raping and terrorizing active people in the society. This is more plausible to be something unprecedented than mere homosexuality.
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As if homosexual rape is worse than heterosexual rape!!
There was homo and heterosexuality, I would say they were even bisexuals. But it was not just that, it was raping and terrorizing active people in the society. This is more plausible to be something unprecedented than mere homosexuality.
None was terrorizing and none was raping. All were doing with consent and desire. Here is the evidence of Allah
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And Lot when he said to his people "Do you commit the atrocious deeds such as none preceding you has committed in the Alamin (creations altogether)?Figure of speech, doesn?t nullify the act existing before it nor were they punished for sexual preferences, rather for being criminals and disbelievers (5132) a matter of degree meaning unprecedented as in
520 And when Moses said to his people "O my people! Remember the blessings of God to you, when He made Prophets among you, and He made you kings, and gave you what he did not give anyone from the creations altogether.
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As if homosexual rape is worse than heterosexual rape!!
There was homo and heterosexuality; I would say they were even bisexuals. But it was not just that, it was raping and terrorizing active people in the society. This is more plausible to be something unprecedented than mere homosexuality.
None was terrorizing and none was raping. All were doing with consent and desire. Here is the evidence of Allah
This verse just supports my understanding We found in it but one house of peaceful people.
Consent is not the opposite of peacefulnessSister either I am not getting what you mean. Rape and terrorizing indicates as if there were two groups in the nation. But the fact of the matter is that except for one house, the entire nation was indulging in what has been reported against them. When they all were indulging how their act could be construed as raping and terrorizing? Everyone was punished which shows they were doing things with consent and desire not under force.
{5135-36]
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Sister either I am not getting what you mean. Rape and terrorizing indicates as if there were two groups in the nation. But the fact of the matter is that except for one house, the entire nation was indulging in what has been reported against them. When they all were indulging how their act could be construed as raping and terrorizing? Everyone was punished which shows they were doing things with consent and desire not under force.
{5135-36]
What I want to say is that it was not just male homosexuality, and if the whole nation was indulging, how on earth should we understand "you go unto men lustfully instead of women"? How would this apply to the females in the society?
Also, why should there be a party that terrorizes and a party that rapes? Rape is the number one terror. It's the utmost level of humiliation. -
What I want to say is that it was not just male homosexuality,
Yes it is quite evident. Sexual lust has many dimensions, and ordinarily it reflects two sexes. Homosexuality has distintly been mentioned and with regard to this it has been said that no nation did it earlier than the people of Lut.
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2829 And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!?
The lewdness committed by Lot?s people was not homosexuality alone but was as follows
- They sexually approach men (2929)
- They commit highway robbery (2929)
- They bring all vice to their society (2929)
- They were ?mufseedin? (َ (2930)
- They were ?zaleemin? (َ (29.31)
- They were ?ghabeerin? (َ (2932)
- They were ?faseekun? ( َ (2934)
Why do we concentrate only on homosexuality and forget the others.
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Dear Brothers and Sisters
This conversation and many other conversations in different parts of the forum are very interesting as a result of a rather unclear meanings of the "words" as understood by us . The script writing tecnique used in the Qur'an is the script tecnique used by the able scribes which was prevalent at that time for writing anything during that period. In order to decode that technique, we will have to go back in that time period. Review of the literature, the lexicons and various grammar books, clearly point out that the meanings of the "words" were changing very fast as Quran was spreading to different parts of the world , beyond the bounds of the Quraish.
It was therefore felt necessary to immediately compile books in the very early period, explaining not only the writing rules but also meanings conveyed by those words in lexicons such as Lisaan ul Arab and multiple so called grammar books. It was then, when the need for Feteh, Kessra, Dummah, Gezm, Teshdeed and other signs were felt necessary to be described clearly, so we may not get confused and start assuming the meanings. Unfortunately, these works were not utilised by later scholars fully and hence disagreement on the meanings continued to grow wider.
Recent interest in these guide books to understand the correct meaning is now gaining some grounds because of fabulous translations of these grammar and lexicon books, and its easy availability in both Arabic and English because of the internet. We need to apply all these rules without assuming that we know it all just because we can understand and speak the modern Arabic as it exists today. Language evolves with time, but Quranic script technique is fixed, as we need to preserve the original meanings and the message without diluting or exagarrating it.
So let us all start a project of reading these books explaining these grammar rules for gezm, teshdeed, feteh, kesra etc. and not use them for the purpose of correct pronunciation only as we all have been doing. The very idea of putting these signs above and below the Quranic words was the worry of those people who felt that the meanings would otherwise be lost. Please review the meanings of gezm, teshdeed etc over and over again as it will then decode all the words, as in Quranic script multiple words were zipped together with the help of gezm and teshdeed. When these words are put separately, the meaning starts becoming clear. A simple example is Al'Kitab, where Al is separeated by a Gezm, meaning therby " The Book" and not just book. Has any one ever pondered on the word Al'Qur'aan with two gezm.
Seeking and praying for Hidaya constantly.
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- 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
-mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
-vulenrable children
-orphans
All these three categories are under the title "women".
I would say "the vulnerable", "the dependants"...
Verse 654 the context (maheed) shows it means "women"
I do not know a difference between allaa'ii and allaati or even allawtii
Salaam
Today I watched very interesting programme on BBC1 "The Hottest Place on Earth" The first of two programmes exploring the Danakil desert in northern Ethiopia, investigating the geology of the area and meeting the people and animals who can survive in the extraordinary environment.
) And the tough life of the Afar woman, who appear very happy doing all the work whereas the men sit around and drink tea eat
I look forward to the next episode to find out who is actually "the rijal" there, as the tribe appears to be from the Muslim community.
peace - 4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
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Homosexuality has distintly been mentioned and with regard to this it has been said that no nation did it earlier than the people of Lut.
No homosexuality has been distinctly or explicitly mentioned. This part fo the verse is mstakenly understood to mean "men instead of women". As I commented in a previous post, if we were to uderstand it as such, it would have been .... (males instead of females). The verse that says supports this meaning, unless all the people of Lut were males, which is not true.