What type of Riba is prohibited ?
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Peace "rami",
Peace jonny_k,
Then what is Riba of the Quran??
JK- It is the opposite of charity. Just see how many times riba is contrasted with charity. If you exploit people whor poor by asking from them money instead of just providing for them some help without asking anything in return that is Riba. Bro Edip has written an article on this
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/unorthodox.htm#USURYThat object should be sold and the profit margin is the labor used to get the object ready. You can ofcourse charge the person being lent a property any services you will provide. But Rent in reality is exactly like interest. The cost for owning capital for a period of time. This is ofcourse theoritical economics and I don't know how this will work out on the large scale. But I guess for this to work, Zakat is mandatory. The surplus money should be given to people who can't do labor. This is the missing link Karl Marx was looking for. An act of kindness!
Peace,
Rami
JK- If i have a car which i dont want to give up forever but someone asks me that he wants to take a drive in it. He's a wealthy person. Should i just give it to him for free? Would it be forbidden to charge him money for using my car? Remember he cld be renting the car for enjoyment or for testing various models for his statistics. Also consider inheritance. Children do NO LABOR AT ALL for receiving that and yet the Quran even recommends parents to write down a will for the inheritance. Please refer to the above article. Youll see it makes perfect sense whilst your theory does not. GOD Bless!
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Peace johnny_k,
This article is exactly what I read in Arabic by Ahmad Mansoor. They argue that 'riba' is charging interest when lending to poor people as an act of charity.
- Lending is not charity. It is a humanitarian act but not 'sadaqa'. Only a good deed.
- Charities never return so there is no such thing as charging interest in charities.
- People borrow money because they need it.
- No borrower will accept interest so interest is almost always forced.
- Interest is usury is Riba.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace "rami",
Peace johnny_k,
This article is exactly what I read in Arabic by Ahmad Mansoor. They argue that 'riba' is charging interest when lending to poor people as an act of charity.
- Lending is not charity. It is a humanitarian act but not 'sadaqa'. Only a good deed.
JK- Lending maybe both a humanitarian act and a business as well. In te latter case it is not riba. thats the whole point.
- Charities never return so there is no such thing as charging interest in charities.
JK- The point is if we know someone is poor yet lend him something and ask something in return that is whats being addressed. In other words YOU DONT DO BUSINESS WITH SUCH NEEDY PEOPLE AND IF YOU DO ITS RIBA. What your doin is turning a particular business into Riba which is exactly what the Quran warns of. It states
2275 ... they claim BUSINESS is like usury(Notice theyr NOT saying usury is like business). However, GOD permits trade, and prohibits usury.
The people are wanred here by GOD to not call any business as riba and in other words clearly contrasts Riba with charity so it has nothing to do with business at all.- People borrow money because they need it.
JK- Not necessarily. Most people borrow money because they want to make for themselves a big business or get expensive luxurious cars and houses which they cant pay for all at once. No one reqeires to open a big business or get those luxurious cars and houses.
- No borrower will accept interest so interest is almost always forced.
JK- most borrowers prefer interest over profit sharing any day if they think there business will run successfully because interest rates are only like 10% and they could be aking 100% or more profit if the business runs successfully and dont wanna give away 30-40% profit which the lender would then request for. Moreover profit sharing requires the banks, which are now big instituoins, to run after their clients which is impractical so they set the rates in advance. Why should a bank give people money for free who wanna open their own mcd or bruger king? dont you see how ridiculous that is?
- Interest is usury is Riba.
Peace,
Rami
JK- As ive explained this is nonsense just like your statement that all rental is riba. GOD Bless!
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Peace again "rami",
Consider this example of car rental also. A person wants to test drive ten different cars over a period of ten days, one on each day. Each of those cars, same years old, would cost him USD 20,000 in the market and you know how difficult it is to resell ones car for even the same price as one bought it and many times even close to the buying price. Thus he would be risking alot should he buy one, try it out and then resell it the next day. On the other hand theres a car rental offering each of these cars for USD 70 per day. Hed now pay USD 700 and woudlve tried out all cars without risking anything. If he wouldve bought a car each time at USD 20,000 and the next day even sell it at USD 19,500 hed be suffering a loss of USD 5000. So actually the rental benefited him. So why are you degrading the Quran to such as if the Author didnt know this? It is crystal clear that Riba is something which all ahumans know is instinctively wrong. Some people, especially the sunni/shia like to play with this term whenever they wanna prohibit something which GOD hasnt thus claiming "this transaction/busness/trade is like riba. haram.haram". how did GOD answer "GOD permits trade/business/transactions and He prohibits Riba" whilst in other verses very clearly contrasting it with charity. GOD Bless!
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O
I understand it like this
Those who eat exorbitant gains on capital, they cannot stand except in the manner one such person stands whom cobra has made stupefied/bushed by his touch. This is for the reason they said, "indeed forward commitment commerce is similar to gain on capital/usury", while Allah has declared forward commitment commerce as permissible and prohibited gain/usury on capital. Therefore the one whom advice from his Sustainer Lord has reached and in compliance thereof he abstained then that is for him that was done earlier and his matter is towards Allah. And whoever despite advice does/reverts to it then for this reason such are the people who are the companions of Fire/Hell Prison where they shall abide perpetually.I understand that is only such transaction where the payment against the goods/property/tangible things is to be made at a later date on the expiry of settled period. In such transaction the price charged is higher proportionately to the appointed time than the on spot cash price. Same is with Riba, no goods but just capital/cash lending. Allah has answered the opinion of people without arguing by giving the verdict that He is declared one as permissible and the other as Prohibited.
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Peace jonny_k and Mazhar,
I will take this a bit deeper down the rabbit hole. People were saying selling is like interest because they are both increases on capital but God insisted that selling is permissible but Riba is not. Why? The answer is in the nature of the capital itself. In selling, the capital is lost but in Riba, the capital remains. So if you are in the rental business or banking, you are making money and keeping your capital at the end of the day. With the help of modern technology, services can be recorded and sold over and over again though it took the artist for example one shot. It is a like a surgeon doing an appendectomy once and getting money for every appendectomy afterwards without actually doing it.
Therefore if capital will never return, the increase is called profit. But if the capital will eventually return, the increase is called Riba.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace "rami",
Peace jonny_k and Mazhar,
I will take this a bit deeper down the rabbit hole. People were saying selling is like interest because they are both increases on capital but God insisted that selling is permissible but Riba is not.
JK- BAIH does not just mean selling but business in general which includes buying and selling. As for your statement "people were saying baih is like riba beucause theyr both increases on capital that doesnt make any sense. People mustve known instinctively what Riba meant and they were tryin to categorize legitimate trade as Riba thus making it prohibited. Moreover Riba<>Interest. Interest is legitimate BAIH.
Why? The answer is in the nature of the capital itself. In selling, the capital is lost but in Riba, the capital remains. So if you are in the rental business or banking, you are making money and keeping your capital at the end of the day. With the help of modern technology, services can be recorded and sold over and over again though it took the artist for example one shot. It is a like a surgeon doing an appendectomy once and getting money for every appendectomy afterwards without actually doing it.
JK- Is there any other person on this planet you know off, besides you, who claims that Riba includes all kinds of rental? I sure havnt heard of anyone neither now nor in history books. So that means everyone has been consuming the evil Riba and didnt keep up with this important Quanic command except for you? Seems quite illogical doesnt it?
As for the services argument one can considser lending a currency a service for example and say that ok the %age is now charged as the service of lending because to setup the system requires mental as well as physical labor. The outcome would be the same, just the wording be different. So that doesnt make any sense whatsoever.Therefore if capital will never return, the increase is called profit. But if the capital will eventually return, the increase is called Riba.
Peace,
Rami
JK- Where do you derive this understanding from? Let me then give you another example how one could get around thus definition but technically have the same effect. Say a person wants to buy a house but cannot pay for it all at once. The bank now buys the house for the guy at a price considerably lower than it would be selling it to it's customer. The difference it would make equal to the otherwise amount of interest charged all other security issues being equally applied. According to your definitio0n this isnt Riba but is exactly the same technically. INFACT it can be even worse since interest is anually so if the buyer did pay back al the money for the house in the first yr or two years he wldve only paid like say 16% more than the sellers price of the house. Now hes paying 80% more which the bank calculated on say otherwise 10 yrs interest. OR would you consider someone buying a product from somewhere for price x and selling it elsewhere for price x + y Riba too? I hope not for that would then destroy all kinds of business. If Riba had anything to do with busniness conduct why is GOD contrasting it with charity? People whor doing business are sure not in need of charity. Poor people need things, they dont open up businesses and they shouldnt. GOD Bless!
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Peace "mazhar"
I understand that is only such transaction where the payment against the goods/property/tangible things is to be made at a later date on the expiry of settled period. In such transaction the price charged is higher proportionately to the appointed time than the on spot cash price. Same is with Riba, no goods but just capital/cash lending. Allah has answered the opinion of people without arguing by giving the verdict that He is declared one as permissible and the other as Prohibited.
JK- Again your forc?ng very far fetched interpretations on Riba and just causing more confusion. From the Quran it should be clear by the contrast of Riba with Charity that Riba has NOTHING to do with business conduct at all. Infact MShaikh's understanding is very good. Go and see his lecture where he explains that Riba is when one withholds the charity from the poor and it keeps on increasing with him. GOD Bless!
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I understand that is only such transaction where the payment against the goods/property/tangible things is to be made at a later date on the expiry of settled period. In such transaction the price charged is higher proportionately to the appointed time than the on spot cash price. Same is with Riba, no goods but just capital/cash lending. Allah has answered the opinion of people without arguing by giving the verdict that He is declared one as permissible and the other as Prohibited.
JK- Again you?re forcing very far fetched interpretations on Riba and just causing more confusion. From the Quran it should be clear by the contrast of Riba with Charity that Riba has NOTHING to do with business conduct at all. In fact MShaikh's understanding is very good. Go and see his lecture where he explains that Riba is when one withholds the charity from the poor and it keeps on increasing with him. GOD Bless!
JK- BAIH does not just mean selling but business in general which includes buying and selling. JK- BAIH does not just mean selling but business in general which includes buying and selling. JK- BAIH does not just mean selling but business in general which includes buying and selling.
is not just buying and selling. It is a PECULIAR commercial activity wherein the person who takes the possession of the goods, belonging to another man, on the promise of making the payment in the future after expiry of agreed period of time. And in such cases the obligation is much higher than another person obtaining/buying the same goods on cash payment. First one is a contract reaching maturity in the future. Therefore it MUST be reduced to writing in the presence of witnesses.
O you who say to have believed! When you people enter into a commercial deal of promissory nature for a period with specific terminating point in time for payment, then you must put it in writing and a scribe must amongst you write down in just manner;
and the scribe must not refuse to write down since Allah has taught him, therefore, he must write down and the party under liability should dictate remaining mindful/ fearful of Allah and should not reduce anything of liability/obligation.For reason of the indebted person being immature or is weak or is not capable to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate it with equity;
and you let two men from among your men be witness , for reason of non availability, then any one man and two women, by mutual choice, be made witness;
so that if one gets perplexed/unmindful while recording witness the other may remind her . And when witnesses are asked to witness/testify the contract/in court they should not refuse. And you people do not neglect to reduce to writing your promissory commercial transaction for a specified term, whether it be big or small. Allah considers this more just for you, and for witness it is primary evidence and reduces the chances of suspicions; there is exception to this injunction that you may not reduce to writing the cash transactions that you do daily on spot hand to hand; but in case of promissory commercial transactions you should make it witnessed. The scribe and the witnesses should not be harassed, if you do so, you shall be guilty of excess. And you should remain mindful of Allah; He gives you the knowledge of the right way for Allah has the knowledge of everything.
is different and distinct from other business activity, according to Quran.
And similarly our commerce with Allah is in the nature of . Allah is the other party Who has to pay back after a period of time.
Momin has given Him his person and wealth on promise of discharge of His obligation by giving Paradise. What type of business is this? This is
When we pay it is with Allah against promise of exorbitant profit, He .
Many Sheikhs incorrectly presume as antonym of . The comparison is regarding the real outcome of both two, which is opposite to apparent appearance. In the wealth is apparently increasing, while in it is reducing/ getting away. Profit and loss is determined at the end of the day.
Allah is telling the hidden/final result/truth about the gain and loss/balance sheet.
The comparison of the nature of is only with . -
Peace "mazhar",
The writing down of financial transactions takes place automatically and is also witnessedf by numerous people who operate the bank so it is practically a non issue for such. In case of private people making a transaction yes that would apply BUT NONE OF THIS has anything to do with Riba. Meaning if we didnt adhere to these witness commands it wouldnt mean that wer now consuming Riba. Riba has nothing to do with business. It is witholding charity which is a serious moral offense. GOD Bless! -
Peace again "mazhar",
As i understand you're putting forth the standard sunni/shia argument that wheneevr money is lent profit/loss must be taken into account. In other words a bank can only take profit on the borrowers profit if the borrower profits and must involve itself in the loss if the boroower incurrs a loss. This however is nonsense for then someone who rents out an appartment or a car would have to do the same. Would you agree that a car rental should only charge rent for the use of the car if the person renting it made a profit along his journey? Doesnt make sense does it? GOD Bless! -
Peace again "rami",
It is a like a surgeon doing an appendectomy once and getting money for every appendectomy afterwards without actually doing it.
JK- I can very easily counter this statement and show this can apply to entirely non rental issue. Consider a business man setting up a business so complex that lastly all work is done either 1) by machines alone or 2) by a combination of workers and machines the hierarchy too being perfectly managed by various managers. He now does nothing anymore and keeps on getting paid. No rental is involved. Is this Riba according to you? GOD Bless!
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Peace again "mazhar",
As i understand you're putting forth the standard sunni/shia argument that wheneevr money is lent profit/loss must be taken into account. In other words a bank can only take profit on the borrowers profit if the borrower profits and must involve itself in the loss if the boroower incurrs a loss. This however is nonsense for then someone who rents out an appartment or a car would have to do the same. Would you agree that a car rental should only charge rent for the use of the car if the person renting it made a profit along his journey? Doesnt make sense does it? GOD Bless!Brother which shia/sunni has said what I have stated in reply 23?
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Peace "mazhar",
From your post i deduced that you meant that a lender should only ask for his/her profit once the user has made a profit/loss using the loan, from your statement "Profit and loss is determined at the end of the day." If thats not what you meant please correct me. GOD Bless! -
Peace all,
Let me put in another way
-Bayee' is return on labor whether mental or physical where a person consumes energy and time to accomplish a target.
-Riba is a return on capital be it in any form.A currency is a representation of Labor or Physical effort. If you make your capital create the revenue for you, you are in actuality stealing the fruit of labor of another. So a Millionaire is almost always usurious as he can't put that much labor but he will make the capital work for him by taking the fruit of labor of others without him exerting effort. So the worker is actually working for the capitalist! A very clear human crime.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace "rami",
Peace all,
Let me put in another way
-Bayee' is return on labor whether mental or physical where a person consumes energy and time to accomplish a target.
-Riba is a return on capital be it in any form.A currency is a representation of Labor or Physical effort. If you make your capital create the revenue for you, you are in actuality stealing the fruit of labor of another. So a Millionaire is almost always usurious as he can't put that much labor but he will make the capital work for him by taking the fruit of labor of others without him exerting effort. So the worker is actually working for the capitalist! A very clear human crime.
Peace,
Rami
JK- NO to get to the point where interest can be charged can require alot of labor depending on the situation and how much adveretisment is needed, etc. And since when is capitalism considered Riba? I gave you a very simple example of a businessman setting up a complex business where he himself no longer needs to put in any labor whatsoever and yet keeps on receiving money. Is that Riba according to you? As for currency it not merely represents labor but all goods collectively. GOD Bless!
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Peace "rami",
JK- NO to get to the point where interest can be charged can require alot of labor depending on the situation and how much adveretisment is needed, etc. And since when is capitalism considered Riba? I gave you a very simple example of a businessman setting up a complex business where he himself no longer needs to put in any labor whatsoever and yet keeps on receiving money. Is that Riba according to you? As for currency it not merely represents labor but all goods collectively. GOD Bless!
Sorry friend, it is the truth. All non-destructible working capital is Riba. That is the only way to get incredibly rich. Thats why the workers are always average but the investors are almost always rich. Simple maths. You are arguing because you are afraid to realize is that God and the modern world are on different poles.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace "mazhar",
From your post i deduced that you meant that a lender should only ask for his/her profit once the user has made a profit/loss using the loan, from your statement "Profit and loss is determined at the end of the day." If thats not what you meant please correct me. GOD Bless!Assalamo Alaikum,
The worldly life is for an appointed period of time. The sum total of acts done by each is "what he earned". In business parlance we call it balance sheet, which is prepared at the end of the financial year . In physical goods/products/commodities are given to the other party on the promise of payment of its cost/price in the future, hence value determined is much higher than it exists on the point of time these goods are being handed over. This phenomenon is equated by some people to be exactly equivalent to . In both, the gain is of capital, in unusual higher percentage. Allah, without giving explanation or assigning any reasons, straight tells His command that He declared Hilal and Haram. In the first case goods exchange hand and in the other only capital/cash/money is given to the needy to be returned with additional amount at certain percentage. General instructions about capital is illustrated by the Root " Nafq", it should remain flowing/invested in goods and commodities. If the blocked capital of only hundreds of people in the world is floated in the market, it may bring down prices of essential commodities to the reach of every man and provide jobs to all the jobless the world over. Millions and millions are below poverty line only because of withholding of capital for vested interest and keeping monoply and hold of the upper classes which is now a universal fraternity/mafia, notwithstanding apparently belonging to different religions. But they all have a common religion and interest and brotherhood.
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Peace "Rami",
Sorry friend, it is the truth. All non-destructible working capital is Riba. That is the only way to get incredibly rich. Thats why the workers are always average but the investors are almost always rich. Simple maths. You are arguing because you are afraid to realize is that God and the modern world are on different poles.
Peace,
Rami
JK- I guess then the once Prophet Solomon was consuming Riiba too. I can point out why your arguemnt doesnt make sense. Conmsider two doctors in two different places. one gets paid more than the other. I might consider that both are doing exactly the same work. Another person would argue that the doctor being paid more actually works less. Yet another third party argues that infact both doctors are receving too much. Can Riba be pinned down on what the majority agrees on is what a particular worker/laborer deserves? NO, it doesnt make any sense because money IS ULTIMATELY BTW TWO PARTIES and is of no others concern. Someone may like doctor x more and hence he/shed get more money as compared to doctor y. It's totally individualistic and out of this capitalism gets formed automatically. HOWEVER what one can argue is that certain essential products for life e.g. oxygen, water, corn and some others should have a price so that everyone can attain them. Besides that it' shld all be free market. GOD Bless!