The Prayer Issue Revived
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Peace "c0de",
@ Jonny K
I am not a "Quran only" Muslim. I accept the Quran's supremacy and do not accept any hadith which contradict the letter or spirit of the Quran. But I do not reject all hadith just because they are hadith.
JK- Ofcourse some hadith mayb rieght just as in any book, histotical or otherwise, there are true and false statemnts BUT what i meant is that you don't accept any hadith besides Quran as Divine inspiration meant for all generations to come. This is what technically makes one a Quran Alone Muslim. So say if a hadith states that it's ok to drink camel urine as medicine or dip a fly in a vessel once it falls in there coz one if it's wing has the disease and the other the cure, this does not contradict the Quran as such YET it would contradict nature. Thus the not contradicting Quran argument is faulty logic.
But this discussion has nothing to do with the hadith. It has to do with the Quranic support for the 5 timings of prayer. As for your objections, I think I have already addressed most of them, but I will oblige.
Maybe because the stages aren't all that important. Different Muslims pray in different ways.
JK- This is mere speculation. How can you justify this statement since the stages are ultimately what supposedly make up the salat? I can then argue why not ALWAYS combine isha and maghrib and zuhr and asr as shia do. Ismailis dont even offer salat in the traditional way at all.
What "sense" does it make to pray at all?
The metaphorical meaning of this verse is not mutually exclusive with the secondary version related to salat. Besides, I am not here to defend the various rituals of prayer, but the 5 times.
PeAcE
JK- Lets quote the verses
2149 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. This is the truth from your Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything you all do.
2150 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces towards it. Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.2150 again repeats whats in 2149 and yet NO MENTION OF SALAT here at all. How can you connect salat to Masjidul Haram. Also "Qiblah" just means "direcrtion" and not "prayer direction" unless "salat" is sepcifically mentioned along with it.
Also as i said most of the shia only pray three times so your unity argument based on the times breaks down there. Moreover are you ok if people just offered salat bowing and prostraing random no of times in their five daily salat? GOD Bless!
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Peace "c0de",
I forgot to address this qs of yours.What "sense" does it make to pray at all?
JK- Prayer if done with focus on GOD Alone can induce positive thoughts which allow one to be more rational and it is known that self suggestion can even lead to positive and negative PHYSICAL effects on human health. If so prayer to GOD Alone could have alot of physical benefits including ones immune system via self suggestion. GOD Bless!
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@ Jonny K
Salaam bro. Again, most of the points you have raised have already been answered, but I will answer you out of courtesy.
Also as i said most of the shia only pray three times so your unity argument based on the times breaks down there.
This objection has already been nullified. Shia combine prayers, but they recognize the 5 distinct times. There is a difference.
2149 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. This is the truth from your Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything you all do.
2150 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces towards it. Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.2150 again repeats whats in 2149 and yet NO MENTION OF SALAT here at all. How can you connect salat to Masjidul Haram. Also "Qiblah" just means "direcrtion" and not "prayer direction" unless "salat" is sepcifically mentioned along with it.
Not that this issue is that important anyway, as what matters most is the intention. Even if we are facing mecca in our prayers, but our intention is diverted away from God, what good is facing Mecca? But since you are challenging a well-established ritual without any actual historical evidence, I will indulge you.
2.142
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.This verse (contained in the same passage from which you quoted) supports the idea that there is also a non-metaphorical meaning behind the word "Qibla" as it is obviously speaking of an actual event. And recorded history connects this to the incident that took place in Medinah when the Prophet turned his face (during prayer) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Now you can argue about the authenticity of the history all you want, but remember that your case is incomplete unless you provide historical evidence to the contrary.
What you are suggesting, that this one ritual which is present across time and space among the Muslim lands is false, but you are doing this without providing any evidence at all. Instead, you have semantics. "Qibla" means direction one turns his face towards (true). But this does not mean this word has no religious significance. Yes, Masjib al-Haram also has a metaphorical significance symbolizing the unity of a spiritual purpose that Muslims are supposed to strive towards. But your argument that the metaphor and the ritual are mutually exclusive is unfounded. Just because the word salat is not used in the passage itself does not necessitate the rejection of the ritual because we have historical evidence that it is the salaat ritual which this passage is referring to (Bukhari 229).
That said, if you feel that you do not want to face Mecca during your prayers, that is totally fine with me, as that is between you and your God. But for anyone to claim that this ritual that most Muslims practice is pagan in nature (as some here have), is a little ridiculous. Especially considering that the pagans themselves never bowed to the Kabbah itself but to the idols present therein.
BUT what i meant is that you don't accept any hadith besides Quran as Divine inspiration meant for all generations to come. This is what technically makes one a Quran Alone Muslim. So say if a hadith states that it's ok to drink camel urine as medicine or dip a fly in a vessel once it falls in there coz one if it's wing has the disease and the other the cure, this does not contradict the Quran as such YET it would contradict nature. Thus the not contradicting Quran argument is faulty logic.
I know. This is why I reject any hadith which contradicts my reason as well. But the hadith in Buhkari which links to the above argument does not go against reason at all, in fact makes things much clearer. So I accept it.
JK- This is mere speculation. How can you justify this statement since the stages are ultimately what supposedly make up the salat?
The general guideline of the stages is present in the Quran. All Muslim sects follow these guidelines. Bowing, Standing and the "7 oft repeated verses"
I can then argue why not ALWAYS combine isha and maghrib and zuhr and asr as shia do.
Go ahead and combine them, that is between you and your God. Just don't tell me that my 5 prayer timings are a pagan ritual. Because I can easily claim that since you can't provide any evidence that the official number was 4, 2, 3, or 7, then my #5 is validated by the uniformity of this practice across Muslim lands.
Prayer if done with focus on GOD Alone can induce positive thoughts which allow one to be more rational and it is known that self suggestion can even lead to positive and negative PHYSICAL effects on human health. If so prayer to GOD Alone could have alot of physical benefits including ones immune system via self suggestion. GOD Bless!
But you do not have to pray to God to derive such benefits. Meditation will work just as well. The fact is that there is "rational" reason for praying to God, is there? This is why faith, by definition, is not "rational", that is why, it is "faith".
Moreover are you ok if people just offered salat bowing and prostraing random no of times in their five daily salat?
Who am I to judge their practices? I myself have many beliefs which are contradictory to the mainstream, and most of the time I am actually arguing with Sunnis about their stated beliefs which (in my opinion) contradict the Quran... However, my ritual (of praying the way I do, and 5 times a day) does not contradict the Quran. That is the reason why I have no reason to question this established practice.
PeAcE
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Peace bro "AB",
JK- IMHO Very likely. Many Jews are still very proud of their religion and those would be biased in that regard just as any other religion thus making it appear as if their Holy Book is still with them. Ive seen you accept 9128&129 are not part of the Quran whilst the sunni/shia poudly claim that theyve the true Quran with them. I told you i know of no statement other than Gen 11 which has been mathematically confirmed in the OT so you should accept that the complete Torah has by long not been uncovered. And not only those who directly claim to take parnters besides GOD are the unrighteous. It also incldues the rejectors of GOD's signs when they come to them as many Jews rejected the Message when it came to them.
JK- The Quran will no doubt be confirming the real Torah once it's uncovered. As for the OT it doesnt. For example the OT mentions the seventh day on which GOD allegedly rested in the creation account. This is nowehere to be found confirmed in the Quran despite it being a crucial day in the OT. The Quran only mentions six days and it doesnt add the statment "and it was evening and it was morning" to suggest some nonsolar light source. So once again the Quran does not confirm the current OT.
NOW tell me if there are things in the Quran or Torah which are in conflict with indeodent natural observations THEN HOW CAN WE KNOW THAT THEYR GOD'S SCRIPTURES IN THE FIRST PLACE?JK- First of all the Bible states that the sun was created on the fouth day and plants on the 3rd. 2ndly we know this doesnt make sense via independent study of the cosmos which states that the sun was always the source of light for the earth. Again the Quran does not assert such and so does not confirm this "Torah" statement. The only way to justify this would be to say there was a supernatural source of light but how can we ever know if that is true or not and hence how can we ever know that that statement claiming it to be so is from GOD? Do you see the flaw in logic here? GOD Bless!
Maybe the seventh day is the Koranic equivalent of "then He settled on the throne". The problem is there seems to be a debate about the origins of OT. I think this is a weak argument. The real argument is how we interpret "confirmed". Does the Koran confirms the whole OT? Or the core theme and message is what Koran confirms and not every nittyy gritty detail? Or is everything the Koran confirmed is what is contained in the Koran itself about the OT? Maybe its a combination of the second and third.
Questioning origins of the OT and trying to establish an argument that what the Koran was talking about is not the scriptures we have today but some other scriptures that either has vanished or were corrupted after the Koran is simply not supported by the facts. Anyone who sees the verses of the Koran about the previous scriptures can know that its talking about the scriptures around today. But how we interpret confirmed is what i think we should be discussing.
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Peace "c0de",
@ Jonny K
Salaam bro. Again, most of the points you have raised have already been answered, but I will answer you out of courtesy.
JK- Thnx.
This objection has already been nullified. Shia combine prayers, but they recognize the 5 distinct times. There is a difference.
JK- No they recognize five prayers but not necessarily five times. Thats why they pray five prayers in three times.
Not that this issue is that important anyway, as what matters most is the intention. Even if we are facing mecca in our prayers, but our intention is diverted away from God, what good is facing Mecca? But since you are challenging a well-established ritual without any actual historical evidence, I will indulge you.
JK- Wait right here? WELL ESTABLISHED RITUAL??? Nothing is well established UNLESS IT'S PROVEN. We dont have to prove prayers are 2,3,5 or anything else. YOU and the sunnis/shias have to prove to the rest of the world that their rituals are well founded and they cacnt. It's just like most Christians accept the divinity of Jesus. If you were amongst them youd be saying the exact same thing. many amogst the Quran Alone ppl deny 5 daily ritual salat based on logic and reason.
2.142
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.This verse (contained in the same passage from which you quoted) supports the idea that there is also a non-metaphorical meaning behind the word "Qibla" as it is obviously speaking of an actual event. And recorded history connects this to the incident that took place in Medinah when the Prophet turned his face (during prayer) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Now you can argue about the authenticity of the history all you want, but remember that your case is incomplete unless you provide historical evidence to the contrary.
JK- NO it doesnt. It can very well mean a mental direction i.e. people were turned away fom the correct path of GOD's system. This is infact what Ayman has been explaining very extensively and others too. In this regard i consider their arguments very reasonable. A physical Qiblah on a spherical planet makes no sense whatsoever. And the whole story of prophet Muhammad ever even being in a city named Mecca is questionable. It looks like you didnt even read the following articles
http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
http//www.free-minds.org/petraWhat you are suggesting, that this one ritual which is present across time and space among the Muslim lands is false, but you are doing this without providing any evidence at all. Instead, you have semantics. "Qibla" means direction one turns his face towards (true). But this does not mean this word has no religious significance. Yes, Masjib al-Haram also has a metaphorical significance symbolizing the unity of a spiritual purpose that Muslims are supposed to strive towards. But your argument that the metaphor and the ritual are mutually exclusive is unfounded. Just because the word salat is not used in the passage itself does not necessitate the rejection of the ritual because we have historical evidence that it is the salaat ritual which this passage is referring to (Bukhari 229).
JK- Your quoting from Bukhari the same which states tht if a fly falls in your drinking vessel dip it in completely for n one of its wings is the disease and in the other the cure. How in GOD's name can you trust that scripture? And there has always been Quran Alone people like Ayman and others who consider themselves Muslims and dont aagree with ritual prayer interpretation at all. Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, a famous Quran Alone Muslim, for example did not understand salat as any ritual prayer whatsoever and he was right because it doesnt make any sense if you study it deeply.
That said, if you feel that you do not want to face Mecca during your prayers, that is totally fine with me, as that is between you and your God. But for anyone to claim that this ritual that most Muslims practice is pagan in nature (as some here have), is a little ridiculous. Especially considering that the pagans themselves never bowed to the Kabbah itself but to the idols present therein.
JK- Whether it is pagan in nature or not is a totally seprate issue. I dont say it is pagan in nature and that doesnt even concern me. Im saying it's not what GOD REQUIRES OF US. If someone wants to pray ritually, go ahead. I myself pray 3 times a day bowing and prostrating random no of times and not intentionally towards mecca.
I know. This is why I reject any hadith which contradicts my reason as well. But the hadith in Buhkari which links to the above argument does not go against reason at all, in fact makes things much clearer. So I accept it.
JK- THAT IS YOUR OPINION. In my opinion and that of many others the prayer related hadith are causing even more confusement than the others. Without those hadith people would never deduce ritual prayer. Think about it. If a book which does not even get the basics in biology right how can it be right on something as specific as prayer? You need to get out of this indoctrination.
The general guideline of the stages is present in the Quran. All Muslim sects follow these guidelines. Bowing, Standing and the "7 oft repeated verses"
JK- Even if you take bowing and prostraing literally, like i still do, you could use any random no of such and not stick to a no mentioned in hadith. Thats my point.
Go ahead and combine them, that is between you and your God. Just don't tell me that my 5 prayer timings are a pagan ritual. Because I can easily claim that since you can't provide any evidence that the official number was 4, 2, 3, or 7, then my #5 is validated by the uniformity of this practice across Muslim lands.
JK- I told you i dont know whether it's a pagan ritual and that is totally irrelvant to me. Im only saying GOD did not command 5 daily prayers. If anyone wants to he/she can pray 5,10 or even 100 times but if he says GOD has made it a must then i have a big problem with thar.
But you do not have to pray to God to derive such benefits. Meditation will work just as well. The fact is that there is "rational" reason for praying to God, is there? This is why faith, by definition, is not "rational", that is why, it is "faith".
JK- I believe focussing on one GOD has the most benefits. At least that is from my personal standpoint. In that way it reminds me that all the laws in the universe come from One Being and i need to respect them all. GOD Himself states in the Quran that He doesnt need our prayer so wer in need of it or do you disagree?
Who am I to judge their practices? I myself have many beliefs which are contradictory to the mainstream, and most of the time I am actually arguing with Sunnis about their stated beliefs which (in my opinion) contradict the Quran... However, my ritual (of praying the way I do, and 5 times a day) does not contradict the Quran. That is the reason why I have no reason to question this established practice.
PeAcEJK- Well i beleive that making 5 prayers a Divine isnpired must is what contradicts the Quran. Otherwise you can pray as many times as you like. GOD Bless!
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Peace "bigmo",
Maybe the seventh day is the Koranic equivalent of "then He settled on the throne". The problem is there seems to be a debate about the origins of OT. I think this is a weak argument. The real argument is how we interpret "confirmed". Does the Koran confirms the whole OT? Or the core theme and message is what Koran confirms and not every nittyy gritty detail? Or is everything the Koran confirmed is what is contained in the Koran itself about the OT? Maybe its a combination of the second and third.
JK- This is a very far fetched claim. Was it too difficult to add the phrase "and on the 7th day" leaving absolutely no doubt. And "establishing Himself on the throne" does not equal "and he rested". The Quran confirms the true Gospel of Jesus , the true Psalms and also the true Torah and all of them are yet to be discovered.
Questioning origins of the OT and trying to establish an argument that what the Koran was talking about is not the scriptures we have today but some other scriptures that either has vanished or were corrupted after the Koran is simply not supported by the facts. Anyone who sees the verses of the Koran about the previous scriptures can know that its talking about the scriptures around today. But how we interpret confirmed is what i think we should be discussing.
JK- OH but it is supported by the facts. Do you have the dead sea scrolls in your hands? No. And even then theyr claimed to be different from the current OT
I quote from
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrollsPublication of the scrolls has taken many decades, and the delay has been a source of academic controversy. As of 2007 two volumes remain to be completed, with the whole series, Discoveries in the Judean Desert, running to thirty-nine volumes in total. Many of the scrolls are now housed in the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem. According to The Oxford Companion to Archeology, "The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around 100 A.D."
So the facts support that although the dead sea scrolls have been uncovered the elite is hiding crucial info from the public from them. Moreover if we compare the current OT texts with independent natural observations alot of it doesnt agree as ive clearly pointed out. This is not the case with the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Salaam brother JK
JK- No they recognize five prayers but not necessarily five times. Thats why they pray five prayers in three times.
I am pretty sure they do, a link has been provided to a shi'ite website, flip through the pages.
JK- Your quoting from Bukhari the same which states tht if a fly falls in your drinking vessel dip it in completely for n one of its wings is the disease and in the other the cure. How in GOD's name can you trust that scripture? And there has always been Quran Alone people like Ayman and others who consider themselves Muslims and dont aagree with ritual prayer interpretation at all. Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, a famous Quran Alone Muslim, for example did not understand salat as any ritual prayer whatsoever and he was right because it doesnt make any sense if you study it deeply.
You have already admitted that all books contain errors (except the Quran of course). So there is no reason to reject all the hadiths contained in Bukhari, as it is also a valuable historical document. Btw, just because some "Quran aloners" believe in something, doesn't mean anything to me since I do not carry any such label.
JK- Wait right here? WELL ESTABLISHED RITUAL??? Nothing is well established UNLESS IT'S PROVEN. We dont have to prove prayers are 2,3,5 or anything else. YOU and the sunnis/shias have to prove to the rest of the world that their rituals are well founded and they cacnt. It's just like most Christians accept the divinity of Jesus. If you were amongst them youd be saying the exact same thing. many amogst the Quran Alone ppl deny 5 daily ritual salat based on logic and reason.
Do not forget that "Logic" and "reason" are subjective as well. This is why I asked for historical evidence for your claims. I did provide you with hadiths from Bukhari. If you have something more authentic which provides an alternative explanation for the events outlined in that verse of the Quran, please bring it forth and we shall examine it together.
JK- NO it doesnt. It can very well mean a mental direction i.e. people were turned away fom the correct path of GOD's system. This is infact what Ayman has been explaining very extensively and others too. In this regard i consider their arguments very reasonable. A physical Qiblah on a spherical planet makes no sense whatsoever. And the whole story of prophet Muhammad ever even being in a city named Mecca is questionable. It looks like you didnt even read the following articles
http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
http//www.free-minds.org/petraI already said that my definition of "Qibla" includes the one you are presenting. What I stated however, both of our definitions are not mutually exclusive.
Im saying it's not what GOD REQUIRES OF US. If someone wants to pray ritually, go ahead. I myself pray 3 times a day bowing and prostrating random no of times and not intentionally towards mecca.
Good for you. And I am not questioning your beliefs nor your understanding. This thread is a reply for people who question mine.
JK- THAT IS YOUR OPINION. In my opinion and that of many others the prayer related hadith are causing even more confusement than the others. Without those hadith people would never deduce ritual prayer. Think about it. If a book which does not even get the basics in biology right how can it be right on something as specific as prayer? You need to get out of this indoctrination.
Please stop referring to my mindset as "indoctrination" because that implies perfection on your part. Everyone is indoctrinated by something, there is no objective thinking, man is not capable of it. No need to get on our high horses brother...
JK- Even if you take bowing and prostraing literally, like i still do, you could use any random no of such and not stick to a no mentioned in hadith. Thats my point.
I didn't use the hadith to learn how to pray, I used the practice of the Muslims I see around me as a guide. If you feel you need no such guidance and are free to worship in your own way, that is between you and your God brother.
Im only saying GOD did not command 5 daily prayers. If anyone wants to he/she can pray 5,10 or even 100 times but if he says GOD has made it a must then i have a big problem with thar.
You only have a problem with that because you believe that God has commanded 3 prayers. Well, my belief is supported by the 5 times mentioned in the Quran, your belief is supported by 3 times mentioned specifically by the name "salat". I take the two other times mentioned with the words "give praise to Him" also as meaning salat, because in my salat, I give praise to Allah during those times.
At the end of the day, you base your argument on semantics, and I have the well established practice which is uniform across time and space (unless proven otherwise). But I still am not telling you that you are wrong, all I am saying is that my ritual is well supported, and am asking for any historical evidence which contradicts it. I am genuinely interested in any real evidence, but so far no one has actually presented anything.
JK- I believe focussing on one GOD has the most benefits. At least that is from my personal standpoint. In that way it reminds me that all the laws in the universe come from One Being and i need to respect them all. GOD Himself states in the Quran that He doesnt need our prayer so wer in need of it or do you disagree?
I agree that it has the most benefits. But that is a belief which is based not in reason, but in faith. This is why I called into question your argument in which you questioned "what sense does it make to face mecca?" because you are trying to apply reason to something which is fundamentally beyond rationality Faith.
You can argue that it is not part of faith to face mecca, but you can't bring rationality into such arguments. We are not talking about shariah here.
Well i beleive that making 5 prayers a Divine isnpired must is what contradicts the Quran. Otherwise you can pray as many times as you like. GOD Bless!
I understand your point and I believe that as long as both of our intentions are to worship God, we both should be fine (inshAllah)
peace
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Peace "c0de",
Salaam brother JK
I am pretty sure they do, a link has been provided to a shi'ite website, flip through the pages.
JK- They recognize five prayers but NOT five distinct times. I quote from http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salat#The_five_daily_prayers
6According to Shia Muslims, 'Asr prayer and 'Ishaa prayer have no set times but are performed from mid-day...
You have already admitted that all books contain errors (except the Quran of course). So there is no reason to reject all the hadiths contained in Bukhari, as it is also a valuable historical document. Btw, just because some "Quran aloners" believe in something, doesn't mean anything to me since I do not carry any such label.
JK- Hadith are not even always a historical valuable document. For that independent archaeological evidenec would be necessary. None such has been found in favor of five daily salat. Hadith often portrays Muhammad as an aggressive, merciless and paedohile person which i think we can agree he was not.
Do not forget that "Logic" and "reason" are subjective as well. This is why I asked for historical evidence for your claims. I did provide you with hadiths from Bukhari. If you have something more authentic which provides an alternative explanation for the events outlined in that verse of the Quran, please bring it forth and we shall examine it together.
JK- No theyr not subjective. If the five prayer theory were to be so significant than independent researchers from all over the world wouldve found something in them which they dont find in rituals from other religions. Again this is not the case. Infac five times prayer being necessitated makes life difficult since working people can at best pray three times regularly. Quran makes religion easy, hadith five daily prayer make it difficult.
I already said that my definition of "Qibla" includes the one you are presenting. What I stated however, both of our definitions are not mutually exclusive.
JK- The other definition does NOT MAKE SENSE especially on a spehrical earth.
Good for you. And I am not questioning your beliefs nor your understanding. This thread is a reply for people who question mine.
JK- If you consider those prayers a must for every beleiver then as i said ive a problem with that.
Please stop referring to my mindset as "indoctrination" because that implies perfection on your part. Everyone is indoctrinated by something, there is no objective thinking, man is not capable of it. No need to get on our high horses brother...
JK- The problem is i used to be a radical practing sunni, going to mosque regularly and praying five times daily. Then realized gradually that these ritual prayers dont make sense. So i was there already. It wldve been different shld ive never been there.
I didn't use the hadith to learn how to pray, I used the practice of the Muslims I see around me as a guide. If you feel you need no such guidance and are free to worship in your own way, that is between you and your God brother.
JK- Someone born among Christians can argue the same when asked why he accepted the trinity. The Quran warns us not to follow the ways of our forefathers and here it clearly appears that we were doing exactly that. This was one remnant ritual even i had difficulty to let go.
You only have a problem with that because you believe that God has commanded 3 prayers. Well, my belief is supported by the 5 times mentioned in the Quran, your belief is supported by 3 times mentioned specifically by the name "salat". I take the two other times mentioned with the words "give praise to Him" also as meaning salat, because in my salat, I give praise to Allah during those times.
JK- Can you point out the exact verses and indicate whoch prayer it refers to? then we can discuss that. If it were as you say shia wouldnt have claimed tht asr and isha have no set times.
At the end of the day, you base your argument on semantics, and I have the well established practice which is uniform across time and space (unless proven otherwise). But I still am not telling you that you are wrong, all I am saying is that my ritual is well supported, and am asking for any historical evidence which contradicts it. I am genuinely interested in any real evidence, but so far no one has actually presented anything.
JK- Uniformity amongst sunni/shia/ahmediyya. Ismaelis dont pactice 5 times ritual salat neither do the "pervaizis" who are actually Quran Alone Muslims too. You still dont see the flaw in your argument either. You should not ask for evidence contradicting your people's practices. Rather you should ask for evidence SUPPORTING your folks practices. Thats how it goes. Otherwise everyone can be content with the practices of the society they were born in. I already gave you an example of Christianity. They say th exact same thing that theres uniformity amongst Chritians about the trinity. And the hindus have their own "uniformity" claims and so do most other religions. none of these makes it true.
I agree that it has the most benefits. But that is a belief which is based not in reason, but in faith. This is why I called into question your argument in which you questioned "what sense does it make to face mecca?" because you are trying to apply reason to something which is fundamentally beyond rationality Faith.
JK- Blind faith is not supported by the Quran at all. I dont just have faith that mental prayer will help me. I have very rational arguments as to why this is so and ive explained part of it. Ofcourse my theory can be challenged and in that case ill have to adjust myself accordingly depending on who has the stronger arguments. Thats how it goes not dogma.
You can argue that it is not part of faith to face mecca, but you can't bring rationality into such arguments. We are not talking about shariah here.
JK- OFCOURSE I CAN. Beacuse if i cant that all religions can claim truth. Whats so special about ours? Dont you see that this makes absolutely no sense?
I understand your point and I believe that as long as both of our intentions are to worship God, we both should be fine (inshAllah)
peace
JK- That is fine but still you beleive that all beleivers should pray 5 times ritually and im challenging that position. GOD Bless!
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Salaam JK
JK- They recognize five prayers but NOT five distinct times. I quote from http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salat#The_five_daily_prayers
The link you provided doesn't make your case clear.
JK- Hadith are not even always a historical valuable document. For that independent archaeological evidenec would be necessary. None such has been found in favor of five daily salat. Hadith often portrays Muhammad as an aggressive, merciless and paedohile person which i think we can agree he was not.
Once again, I never said hadith is a perfect document. I said it was a valuable historical document. And this is true, even if it has been corrupted (which we both agree it has). As for the hadith on which I base my case on, I already explained that it does not seem to contradict my reason, nor do I have any reason to reject it. And since the hadith is by definition also a historical document, I therefore have historical proof for my argument.
JK- No theyr not subjective.
Reason is by definition subjective (and therefore flawed). Refer to Imannuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
If the five prayer theory were to be so significant than independent researchers from all over the world wouldve found something in them which they dont find in rituals from other religions. Again this is not the case. Infac five times prayer being necessitated makes life difficult since working people can at best pray three times regularly. Quran makes religion easy, hadith five daily prayer make it difficult.
Your reasoning here is completely subjective. I personally find the hardest prayers to be fajr, and this prayer is included in the 3 prayer model as well. There are others who find Fajr and Isha both to be the hardest prayers. In any case, the point of the salat is not to make your life easy, it is to worship God, so that He will make your life easy, if He so chooses.
The other definition does NOT MAKE SENSE especially on a spehrical earth.
Anyone who can operate a compass and has a basic understanding of land navigation and geometry should have no problem making "sense" of direction.
JK- If you consider those prayers a must for every beleiver then as i said ive a problem with that.
And you are free to state your problem in the form of an argument.
JK- The problem is i used to be a radical practing sunni, going to mosque regularly and praying five times daily. Then realized gradually that these ritual prayers dont make sense. So i was there already. It wldve been different shld ive never been there.
I also went through such a stage in my life. I used was affiliated with a militant-jihadi proxy of the wahhabis at one time.
Someone born among Christians can argue the same when asked why he accepted the trinity. The Quran warns us not to follow the ways of our forefathers and here it clearly appears that we were doing exactly that. This was one remnant ritual even i had difficulty to let go.
You have not proved that the ritual I am following is un-Islamic. So please, refrain from attributing verses that were meant for the idolaters to your fellow Muslims... That is a very evil characteristic of the Wahhabis and other radicals. There is even a hadith warning Muslims from engaging in such low-handed tactics.
Can you point out the exact verses and indicate whoch prayer it refers to? then we can discuss that. If it were as you say shia wouldnt have claimed tht asr and isha have no set times.
Please flip through the pages of this thread. All the verses have been quoted. And Shia, as I said, do not claim what you are claiming. They claim that those prayers can be combined. I advise you to ask a shia yourself about this to gain certainty.
JK- Uniformity amongst sunni/shia/ahmediyya. Ismaelis dont pactice 5 times ritual salat neither do the "pervaizis" who are actually Quran Alone Muslims too. You still dont see the flaw in your argument either. You should not ask for evidence contradicting your people's practices. Rather you should ask for evidence SUPPORTING your folks practices. Thats how it goes. Otherwise everyone can be content with the practices of the society they were born in. I already gave you an example of Christianity. They say th exact same thing that theres uniformity amongst Chritians about the trinity. And the hindus have their own "uniformity" claims and so do most other religions. none of these makes it true.
Your understanding of their rituals is flawed. They combine prayers, but they do not say there are only 3. (and btw, Ismaelis are shias themselves) and the Quran aloners don't count because it is their understanding is a recent phenomenon (unless you can provide historical proof which justifies their ritual as having some foundation in the practice of the early Muslims).
JK- Blind faith is not supported by the Quran at all. I dont just have faith that mental prayer will help me. I have very rational arguments as to why this is so and ive explained part of it. Ofcourse my theory can be challenged and in that case ill have to adjust myself accordingly depending on who has the stronger arguments. Thats how it goes not dogma.
You clearly are not familiar with the philosophical limitations of rationality. I already suggested a monumental book which was a landmark in philosophic development above. I advise you to read it. Also, true faith is ALWAYS blind, by definition. I realized this myself only recently.
JK- OFCOURSE I CAN. Beacuse if i cant that all religions can claim truth. Whats so special about ours? Dont you see that this makes absolutely no sense?
It makes perfect sense (ironically enough). And this is why all religions do claim to hold the "truth". Nothing you can say will ever convince them, because they are not functioning on logic and reason. An atheist is an atheist not because his belief is based in reason but because it is based in a blind faith. Just like the you. You only think that your belief is based in reason (just like the atheist) but in reality you (and I) and everyone is totally blind (on paper). Only God knows who sees, and who does not see.
As for your arguments rationalizing your belief in God, remember that all of your "proof" is subjective in the eyes of an atheist. Because only once you make that "leap of faith" (refer to Kierkegaard) that there is a God, are you shown "proof" of His existence. And only after God's grace has been bestowed upon you do you "see" the "signs" of His creation, in the heavens, and in yourself. But an atheist will always argue that you only "see" these "signs" because you want to see them. Both of you, in reality are inside a Cave (refer to Plato, Republic) and both of you see the world through your respective paradigms. But you can never convince anyone that your system of belief is better via reason and rationality. Because as much as we would like to believe that our understanding is based fundamentally on reason and rationality, reason itself has been proven (by Kant) to be subjective.
In the end, God is the One who grants wisdom, we do not earn it via "rational" philosophical inquiry. How many times are we reminded in the Quran that guidance is up to God alone?
That is fine but still you beleive that all beleivers should pray 5 times ritually and im challenging that position.
Challenge all you want brother, just bring some historical evidence for your arguments. Semantics will only get you so far..
PeAcE
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Peace "bigmo",
JK- This is a very far fetched claim. Was it too difficult to add the phrase "and on the 7th day" leaving absolutely no doubt. And "establishing Himself on the throne" does not equal "and he rested". The Quran confirms the true Gospel of Jesus , the true Psalms and also the true Torah and all of them are yet to be discovered.
JK- OH but it is supported by the facts. Do you have the dead sea scrolls in your hands? No. And even then theyr claimed to be different from the current OT
I quote from
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
So the facts support that although the dead sea scrolls have been uncovered the elite is hiding crucial info from the public from them. Moreover if we compare the current OT texts with independent natural observations alot of it doesnt agree as ive clearly pointed out. This is not the case with the Quran. GOD Bless!We don't agree on many things regrading the Koran and a similar argument can be said that the Koran could have ended these arguments by leaving no doubt but it didn't. One of the jobs of judgement day is the settling of our differences. But the Koran says we should not let those differences turn to seperation and sects. The Koran warns us not to allow differences(ikhtilaf) lead us to(tafriqa and shia'a) seperation and sects. Like the Sunni/Shia sects did or the protestant and catholics sects did.
Many of us come from Sunni/Shia background where we are not trained to handle differences. The issues the Koran feels are crucial it left no doubt(Jesus is not God) while the issue it did not feel is crucial(crucifixion) it left room for interpretation. Its part of the Hikma(wisdom) of the Koran.
3.102. O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.
-
And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah.s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
-
Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong They are the ones to attain felicity.
-
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs For them is a dreadful penalty,-
-
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Peace "c0de",
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS PLZ GO HERE http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597936.msg196341#msg196341Salaam JK
The link you provided doesn't make your case clear.
JK- How does the shia not recognizing any fixed times for asr and isha not make my case clear? It shows the whole concept is flawed and those people just tried to reconcile with the hadith to get five prayers in total at three times.
Once again, I never said hadith is a perfect document. I said it was a valuable historical document. And this is true, even if it has been corrupted (which we both agree it has). As for the hadith on which I base my case on, I already explained that it does not seem to contradict my reason, nor do I have any reason to reject it. And since the hadith is by definition also a historical document, I therefore have historical proof for my argument.
JK- And i say 1) hadith is not even a valid historical document because it is full of bias e.g. portrays Muhammad as a violent man and a pedohile and 2) how can a historical document be used to derive Divine injunctions moreso when GOD has already revealed a perfectly preserved Book? That just doesnt make any sense.
Reason is by definition subjective (and therefore flawed). Refer to Imannuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
Your reasoning here is completely subjective. I personally find the hardest prayers to be fajr, and this prayer is included in the 3 prayer model as well. There are others who find Fajr and Isha both to be the hardest prayers. In any case, the point of the salat is not to make your life easy, it is to worship God, so that He will make your life easy, if He so chooses.
JK- Even in the west most people get up before sunrise because work begins at 8 and most of them prefer to take a shower and eat breakfast properly so it isnt a problem at all except for the relatively small %age who dont have work. HOWEVER im always ready to reaqson and as i said if you can bring up convincing arguments that even those are difficult then we might have to consier the whole salat=prayer issue as infact many have done on this foroum inc. Ayman who doesnt beleive salat means prayer at all. According to 95 at least hes got a strong point there since it makes no sense to force people, even prisoners of war, to perform ritual prayer BUT to a COMMITMENT.
Anyone who can operate a compass and has a basic understanding of land navigation and geometry should have no problem making "sense" of direction.
JK- On a spherical body you cannot face any object as soon as it disappears beyond the horizon. If you by a great twist which is not even mentioned in hadith say that the travel direction is what counts then, then there's always TWO ways you can reach the "kaaba". So now youd be forced to make a second assumption on your own i.e. take the shortest distance AND YET on a spherical planet thered be a point right opposite to the "kaaba" where EVERY direction would EQUALLY reach the "kaaba". At least at that point all arguments break down. Do you think GOD didnt know this and would issue such an absurd command? I dont think so.
And you are free to state your problem in the form of an argument.
JK- And so are you. Thats what we ought to do.
I also went through such a stage in my life. I used was affiliated with a militant-jihadi proxy of the wahhabis at one time.
JK- Yes and when i first became Quran Alone i too still upheld vehemently the five daily salat. But then i realized i couldnt really defend my position against the sunnis. They were calling me a hypocrite since all the rituals were derived from hadith AND THEY WERE RIGHT. Now i dont face such problems any more. As i said it happens step by step gradually.
You have not proved that the ritual I am following is un-Islamic. So please, refrain from attributing verses that were meant for the idolaters to your fellow Muslims... That is a very evil characteristic of the Wahhabis and other radicals. There is even a hadith warning Muslims from engaging in such low-handed tactics.
JK- How many times do i have to repeat I dont need to prove a -ve. It's like a santa beleiver asking me to prove to him that Santa doesnt exist. Cant be done. The one who makes a +ve claim has to bring the proof. You havnt proven to me by any means that 5 daily salat is what GOD wants. 2ndly I've stated so many points which make ritual prayer as coming from GOD absurd to say the least. To say it is after these arguments have been presented to one is almost like, GOD forbid, mocking GOD.
Please flip through the pages of this thread. All the verses have been quoted. And Shia, as I said, do not claim what you are claiming. They claim that those prayers can be combined. I advise you to ask a shia yourself about this to gain certainty.
JK- What is important is that shia claim that asr and isha prayers DO NOT HAVE ANY FIXED TIMES. That was my point.
Your understanding of their rituals is flawed. They combine prayers, but they do not say there are only 3. (and btw, Ismaelis are shias themselves) and the Quran aloners don't count because it is their understanding is a recent phenomenon (unless you can provide historical proof which justifies their ritual as having some foundation in the practice of the early Muslims).
JK- How do you know there wernt Quran Aloners like GA Pervaiz as a suppressed minority in the past? This is another silly argument. I can only repeat whatever is claimed in hadith as coming from GOD, be it apparently contradictory to the Quran or not, is not from GOD. If that were so then this would mean GOD actually did reveal part of His revelations unprotected in books other than the Quran for all generations. BUT this doesnt make sense. Why not include them in His protected book to save people from confusion? How do you justify that?
You clearly are not familiar with the philosophical limitations of rationality. I already suggested a monumental book which was a landmark in philosophic development above. I advise you to read it. Also, true faith is ALWAYS blind, by definition. I realized this myself only recently.
JK- If true faith is blind and not gained by studies by differnet people all voer the world independently coming to the same conclusions THEN we might just as well accerpt Jesus as God in our hearts. Infact many people have blindly done so. So tell me how come your right and theyr wrong? You havnt answered that.
It makes perfect sense (ironically enough). And this is why all religions do claim to hold the "truth". Nothing you can say will ever convince them, because they are not functioning on logic and reason. An atheist is an atheist not because his belief is based in reason but because it is based in a blind faith. Just like the you. You only think that your belief is based in reason (just like the atheist) but in reality you (and I) and everyone is totally blind (on paper). Only God knows who sees, and who does not see.
JK- Ok so then how do you know youve got the rght religion. Thats exactly my point. You just proved it. So did i get this correect then nothign i say would ever convince you either? As for myself IVE CHNAGED MY VIEWS MANY TIMES ON THIS VERY FORUM. Check this out
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13378.0As for your arguments rationalizing your belief in God, remember that all of your "proof" is subjective in the eyes of an atheist. Because only once you make that "leap of faith" (refer to Kierkegaard) that there is a God, are you shown "proof" of His existence. And only after God's grace has been bestowed upon you do you "see" the "signs" of His creation, in the heavens, and in yourself. But an atheist will always argue that you only "see" these "signs" because you want to see them. Both of you, in reality are inside a Cave (refer to Plato, Republic) and both of you see the world through your respective paradigms. But you can never convince anyone that your system of belief is better via reason and rationality. Because as much as we would like to believe that our understanding is based fundamentally on reason and rationality, reason itself has been proven (by Kant) to be subjective.
JK- I've discussed the proof of GOD many times on this forum too. Check this out
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597339.msg193016#msg193016 onwards
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13489.0 onwards
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13489.0 onwardsIn the end, God is the One who grants wisdom, we do not earn it via "rational" philosophical inquiry. How many times are we reminded in the Quran that guidance is up to God alone?
JK- GOD has given us our brain and our senses and He wants us to use them as per 1736.
Challenge all you want brother, just bring some historical evidence for your arguments. Semantics will only get you so far..
PeAcE
JK- Now i have and hopefully youve gone through it. Hadith is not valid history. Independent nonbiased people would laugh at such an argument. Hadith is utterly biased in favor of religious zeolots. GOD Bless!
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Peace "bigmo",
We don't agree on many things regrading the Koran and a similar argument can be said that the Koran could have ended these arguments by leaving no doubt but it didn't. One of the jobs of judgement day is the settling of our differences. But the Koran says we should not let those differences turn to seperation and sects. The Koran warns us not to allow differences(ikhtilaf) lead us to(tafriqa and shia'a) seperation and sects. Like the Sunni/Shia sects did or the protestant and catholics sects did.
JK- Im not dividing anyone of us into sects here. All im doing is putting forward my arguements. You can put forwasrd yours and at the end of the day people will decide for themslves which makes more sense or one of us will change his views accordingly. It's tht simple.
Many of us come from Sunni/Shia background where we are not trained to handle differences. The issues the Koran feels are crucial it left no doubt(Jesus is not God) while the issue it did not feel is crucial(crucifixion) it left room for interpretation. Its part of the Hikma(wisdom) of the Koran.
JK- Last but not least everything is interpretation. Only somethings are more clear than others and even that is relative depending on the person whos reading a certain statement.
3.102. O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.
-
And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah.s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
-
Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong They are the ones to attain felicity.
-
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs For them is a dreadful penalty,-
JK- As i said im not here to cause division but everyone must put forward their arguments and maybe one day we'll all agree BUT ONE THING I CAN SAY FOR SURE. No Quran Aloner is going to kill another or start a physical fight just because we cannot agree on certain interpretations on it. Even in science sceinstists disagree all the time on many issues related to a aprticular theory about it's specifics but theyd never kill each other over it like so many religions have done and still do. GOD Bless!
-
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Peace again "c0de",
Regarding your awaited historical and archaelogical evidence first you should read this(NOTE The only thing I dont agree with in this article is the conclusion at the bottom regarding the initials whom i consider part of the wonderful numerical structure in the Quran based on no. 19)
http//www.free-minds.org/languageHere now are some good articles using the Quran to provide evidence that salat<>ritual prayer and infact not even necessarily prayer. All of them arrived at their conclusions independently. This is what brings us closer to the truth. Here they are
http//www.free-minds.org/salat
http//www.free-minds.org/salat-Hamed
http//www.free-minds.org/understanding-salat
http//www.free-minds.org/salat_anonGOD Bless!
-
Peace Bigmo,
Maybe the seventh day is the Koranic equivalent of "then He settled on the throne". The problem is there seems to be a debate about the origins of OT. I think this is a weak argument. The real argument is how we interpret "confirmed". Does the Koran confirms the whole OT? Or the core theme and message is what Koran confirms and not every nittyy gritty detail? Or is everything the Koran confirmed is what is contained in the Koran itself about the OT? Maybe its a combination of the second and third.
Questioning origins of the OT and trying to establish an argument that what the Koran was talking about is not the scriptures we have today but some other scriptures that either has vanished or were corrupted after the Koran is simply not supported by the facts. Anyone who sees the verses of the Koran about the previous scriptures can know that its talking about the scriptures around today. But how we interpret confirmed is what i think we should be discussing.
I agree with you on this, bro... For G-d to send down the Torah, allow it to be corrupted, and then tell the Jews to adhere to it is completely illogical. The modern Muslims stand strongly on the concept of Qur'aanic preservation, and the Qur'aan claims that G-d will preserve it because it is the word of the Creator. That should instantly ring some alarms. If the Torah has become corrupted, even though it's the message of G-d, then what could make you think the Qur'aan is preserved? This doesn't add up. The Qur'aan emphasizes that G-d preserves His scriptures, and this includes the Torah and Injeel, not just the Qur'aan...
Regarding the concept of G-d preserving the entire "old testament" (Tanakh), it depends on the interpretation of the reader. Some people, including some Jews, consider the entire the Tanakh to be the "Written Torah". However, this is rare, especially among Jewish people, and the Torah is usually considered to contain only the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. The rest of the Tanakh (Prophets and Writings) are viewed as books that simply confirm and support the Torah. Interestingly, this is the same description given regarding the Injeel - it simply confirms and authenticates the Torah... The Qur'aan repeatedly emphasizes the fact that G-d sent down the Torah to the Jews, but it doesn't specify the preservation of the rest of the Hebrew Bible. In fact, the Qur'aan differentiates between the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh; the Torah and the Psalms are mentioned separately in the Qur'aan. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the Hebrew Bible wasn't considered part of the Torah that was sent down, and this concept depends on the interpretation of the reader...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace bro "AB",
Peace Bigmo,
I agree with you on this, bro... For G-d to send down the Torah, allow it to be corrupted, and then tell the Jews to adhere to it is completely illogical. The modern Muslims stand strongly on the concept of Qur'aanic preservation, and the Qur'aan claims that G-d will preserve it because it is the word of the Creator. That should instantly ring some alarms. If the Torah has become corrupted, even though it's the message of G-d, then what could make you think the Qur'aan is preserved? This doesn't add up. The Qur'aan emphasizes that G-d preserves His scriptures, and this includes the Torah and Injeel, not just the Qur'aan...
JK- Theres archaelogical evidence for the oldest copies of the Quran being similar to the one today. On the other hand as ive shown some of the death sea scrolls were radical different.
I quote from
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrollsPublication of the scrolls has taken many decades, and the delay has been a source of academic controversy. As of 2007 two volumes remain to be completed, with the whole series, Discoveries in the Judean Desert, running to thirty-nine volumes in total. Many of the scrolls are now housed in the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem. According to The Oxford Companion to Archeology, "The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around 100 A.D."
Thats pt one. Second point is back when the Quran was revealed those particular Jews knew the true Torah and compared the Quran with it. Even today the religious elite amongst the Jews might be hiding away much of the dead sea scrolls because the truth could be socking to the OT readers.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST ive shown you how the OT has glaring contradictions with natural obervations which the Quran lacks and youve still not answered my question. How can we determine whether a scripture is from GOD in the first place if a statment in there is in contradiction with natural observations made via independent reserach? GOD Bless! -
Salaam JK
Peace "c0de",
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS PLZ GO HERE http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597936.msg196341#msg196341Why do people here keep referring to articles from this website to support their arguments? It would be like me making my own website and providing it as a scholarly source to back up my own statements.
JK- How many times do i have to repeat I dont need to prove a -ve. It's like a santa beleiver asking me to prove to him that Santa doesnt exist. Cant be done. The one who makes a +ve claim has to bring the proof. You havnt proven to me by any means that 5 daily salat is what GOD wants. 2ndly I've stated so many points which make ritual prayer as coming from GOD absurd to say the least. To say it is after these arguments have been presented to one is almost like, GOD forbid, mocking GOD.
No, that is not what I am asking. I am not asking you to prove something doesnt exist. I am asking you to prove that something (a practice) did exist Your claiming that 3 prayers were the established ritual of the early Muslims. So you need to provide historical proof of this. Do you have any historical proof at all that the early Muslims used to pray 3 times a day?
How does the shia not recognizing any fixed times for asr and isha not make my case clear? It shows the whole concept is flawed and those people just tried to reconcile with the hadith to get five prayers in total at three times.
But the source you provided (the wiki article) doesnt say the Shia do not recognize 5 distinct prayers. And I have provided a link from a shia website in this thread which clearly says that shias recognize the 5 prayers as DISTINCT prayers with DISTINCT timings. The only difference is that they combine prayers into 3 timings (not always, but are allowed to do this for the sake of convenience).
JK- And i say 1) hadith is not even a valid historical document because it is full of bias e.g. portrays Muhammad as a violent man and a pedohile and 2) how can a historical document be used to derive Divine injunctions moreso when GOD has already revealed a perfectly preserved Book? That just doesnt make any sense.
It doesn't matter if you don't accept it as a valid historical document, because it is. It is not perfect, but it is a historical document nonetheless. Besides, I already asked you to provide your own source material which provides proof that the early Muslims used to pray 3 times.
JK- Even in the west most people get up before sunrise because work begins at 8 and most of them prefer to take a shower and eat breakfast properly so it isnt a problem at all except for the relatively small %age who dont have work. HOWEVER im always ready to reaqson and as i said if you can bring up convincing arguments that even those are difficult then we might have to consier the whole salat=prayer issue as infact many have done on this foroum inc. Ayman who doesnt beleive salat means prayer at all. According to 95 at least hes got a strong point there since it makes no sense to force people, even prisoners of war, to perform ritual prayer BUT to a COMMITMENT.
As I said, it is subjective. And if you want to question the meaning of Salat, go ahead. Just bring some actual evidence to prove that your interpretation was the same as the practice of the early Muslims.
JK- On a spherical body you cannot face any object as soon as it disappears beyond the horizon.
Yes, you can, if you convert the sphere into a grid.
If you by a great twist which is not even mentioned in hadith say that the travel direction is what counts then, then there's always TWO ways you can reach the "kaaba". So now youd be forced to make a second assumption on your own i.e. take the shortest distance AND YET on a spherical planet thered be a point right opposite to the "kaaba" where EVERY direction would EQUALLY reach the "kaaba". At least at that point all arguments break down. Do you think GOD didnt know this and would issue such an absurd command? I dont think so.
Wrong, there is always a shortest path between any two points on a sphere. And in some cases, there are two "shortest paths", and if you find yourself on that point of the grid, then just face any one of them you like. (common sense).
JK- Yes and when i first became Quran Alone i too still upheld vehemently the five daily salat. But then i realized i couldnt really defend my position against the sunnis. They were calling me a hypocrite since all the rituals were derived from hadith AND THEY WERE RIGHT. Now i dont face such problems any more. As i said it happens step by step gradually.
I personally do not require, nor want, any such labels associated with my beliefs. I am a Muslim, that is all I care to be.
JK- How do you know there wernt Quran Aloners like GA Pervaiz as a suppressed minority in the past?
Now you are asking me to disprove Santa.... You are now guilty of a hypocritical fallacy.
I can only repeat whatever is claimed in hadith as coming from GOD, be it apparently contradictory to the Quran or not, is not from GOD. If that were so then this would mean GOD actually did reveal part of His revelations unprotected in books other than the Quran for all generations. BUT this doesnt make sense. Why not include them in His protected book to save people from confusion? How do you justify that?
The 5 prayer ritual does not contradict the Quran in the slightest. Refer to the previous pages for the nullification of this claim.
JK- If true faith is blind and not gained by studies by differnet people all voer the world independently coming to the same conclusions THEN we might just as well accerpt Jesus as God in our hearts. Infact many people have blindly done so. So tell me how come your right and theyr wrong? You havnt answered that.
You completely missed the point of my response. You can not prove your faith to me, and I can not prove mine to you. You think you can, but I advise you to go and talk to an atheist...
JK- Ok so then how do you know youve got the rght religion. Thats exactly my point. You just proved it. So did i get this correect then nothign i say would ever convince you either? As for myself IVE CHNAGED MY VIEWS MANY TIMES ON THIS VERY FORUM. Check this out
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13378.0You are seeing things in my posts which aren't there, a perfect example of subjective reasoning.
JK- I've discussed the proof of GOD many times on this forum too. Check this out
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597339.msg193016#msg193016 onwards
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13489.0 onwards
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13489.0 onwardsSo have I, on other forums. Guess what, no atheist ever got converted... How many atheists have you converted?
JK- GOD has given us our brain and our senses and He wants us to use them as per 1736.
Did you also notice that God has said that He controls the hearing and the sight? So those who are blind to faith, are blind because God has not granted them sight.
JK- Now i have and hopefully youve gone through it. Hadith is not valid history. Independent nonbiased people would laugh at such an argument. Hadith is utterly biased in favor of religious zeolots. GOD Bless!
Independent "nonbiased" (there is no such thing) scholars accept the hadith manuscripts as historical documents. They of course know they are not 100% accurate as the sunnis claim, but they still recognize them as containing accurate information.
I once again ask you to provide proof for your arguments. If you do not accept the hadith, then go ahead and provide any other historical document which proves that there was a time when the early Muslims used to pray 3 times a day.
PeAcE
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Peace "c0de",
Salaam JK
Why do people here keep referring to articles from this website to support their arguments? It would be like me making my own website and providing it as a scholarly source to back up my own statements.
JK- You should LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEREWITH REFERENCES. So what do you make of all those REFERENCED archaological findings in "aymans" article? Arnt they extremely telling? They made up the whole "jahilliyapoertry" nonsense as well as associating common nouns in the Quran with names. You can clearly see that theres no evidence of there ever being a city called mecca or a builfing called kaaba archaeologically. Can you dispute that?
No, that is not what I am asking. I am not asking you to prove something doesnt exist. I am asking you to prove that something (a practice) did exist Your claiming that 3 prayers were the established ritual of the early Muslims. So you need to provide historical proof of this. Do you have any historical proof at all that the early Muslims used to pray 3 times a day?
JK- No im not claiming that 3 daily salat were an established "muslim" ritual. It could be but im beginning to sense that the whole salat=prayer argument doesnt make any sense after all and theres archaological evidence which supports that.
But the source you provided (the wiki article) doesnt say the Shia do not recognize 5 distinct prayers. And I have provided a link from a shia website in this thread which clearly says that shias recognize the 5 prayers as DISTINCT prayers with DISTINCT timings. The only difference is that they combine prayers into 3 timings (not always, but are allowed to do this for the sake of convenience).
JK- Isnt it strange that they acknoledge two prayers dont have fixed timings? What sense does it make for GOD to order two such prayers which dont even have defined timings whilst the Quran clearly states that salat is to be made at "fixed times".
It doesn't matter if you don't accept it as a valid historical document, because it is. It is not perfect, but it is a historical document nonetheless. Besides, I already asked you to provide your own source material which provides proof that the early Muslims used to pray 3 times.
JK- Ive provided proof that the whole salat=prayer is bunk.
As I said, it is subjective. And if you want to question the meaning of Salat, go ahead. Just bring some actual evidence to prove that your interpretation was the same as the practice of the early Muslims.
JK- As i said ive provided evidence now.
Yes, you can, if you convert the sphere into a grid.
JK- So what about the point opposite the claimed focal point where all directions lead to the same , thus all unity breaking down? You didnt address that.
Wrong, there is always a shortest path between any two points on a sphere. And in some cases, there are two "shortest paths", and if you find yourself on that point of the grid, then just face any one of them you like. (common sense).
JK- This is exactly the prob. If we could face anywhere we like then what sense does it make for GOD to order to face a certain physical location in the 1st place. MOREOVER your now using COMMON SENSE in salat whilst you yourself said that there can be no use of rationality in this regard. Youve just contradicted yourself.
I personally do not require, nor want, any such labels associated with my beliefs. I am a Muslim, that is all I care to be.
JK- Fair enough.
Now you are asking me to disprove Santa.... You are now guilty of a hypocritical fallacy.
JK- No i was clarifying my point with an example since you were asking me to prove a -ve namely that "muslims" didnt always pray 5 times.
The 5 prayer ritual does not contradict the Quran in the slightest. Refer to the previous pages for the nullification of this claim.
JK- If you bothered to read any of the articles i posted you would have known that there are so many verses where salat cannot mean prayer by any possible stretch. Please read those articles and if you find a flaw bring it here so we can discuss it.
You completely missed the point of my response. You can not prove your faith to me, and I can not prove mine to you. You think you can, but I advise you to go and talk to an atheist...
JK- I can provide evidence for my understandings and you can for yours. Then it's upto people to decide which makes more sense and either we both will stay the same or Ill accedpt your views or you mine.
You are seeing things in my posts which aren't there, a perfect example of subjective reasoning.
JK- I was making clear to you that without independent natural observations converging to the same conclusions we cannot know what is closer to the truth. Thus taking your arguments i said every religion can claim to be right and it makes no sense whatsoever.
So have I, on other forums. Guess what, no atheist ever got converted... How many atheists have you converted?
JK- I havnt disucssed these issues with atheists alot and many dont come to free minds or studfy the Quran at all. We can access the Quranic verses in question right here.
Did you also notice that God has said that He controls the hearing and the sight? So those who are blind to faith, are blind because God has not granted them sight.
JK- Yes but that is when one is deliberately unwilling to beleive. However i dont beleive your willingly rejecting anything or are you? neither am i.
Independent "nonbiased" (there is no such thing) scholars accept the hadith manuscripts as historical documents. They of course know they are not 100% accurate as the sunnis claim, but they still recognize them as containing accurate information.
JK- I kindly ask you to gain read "aymans" article and see if you still find the hadith acceptable as historical documents.
I once again ask you to provide proof for your arguments. If you do not accept the hadith, then go ahead and provide any other historical document which proves that there was a time when the early Muslims used to pray 3 times a day.
PeAcE
JK- I can only repeat ive provided evidence that salat<>ritual prayer at all. Now please go through those articles. GOD Bless!
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You should LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEREWITH REFERENCES. So what do you make of all those REFERENCED archaological findings in "aymans" article? Arnt they extremely telling? They made up the whole "jahilliyapoertry" nonsense as well as associating common nouns in the Quran with names. You can clearly see that theres no evidence of there ever being a city called mecca or a builfing called kaaba archaeologically. Can you dispute that?
I think you have misunderstood the word "archeological". I took a quick look at those links and all I saw were more semantics.
No im not claiming that 3 daily salat were an established "muslim" ritual. It could be but im beginning to sense that the whole salat=prayer argument doesnt make any sense after all and theres archaological evidence which supports that.
"Archaeology" is a term which is usually (in popular usage) applied to things which have been excavated. I don't know what tombs your scholars have been excavating for their proofs here.
Isnt it strange that they acknoledge two prayers dont have fixed timings? What sense does it make for GOD to order two such prayers which dont even have defined timings whilst the Quran clearly states that salat is to be made at "fixed times".
Once again, I advise you to actually talk to a shia about this. They recognize 5 distinct times (as they recognize 5 distinct prayers). They just combine prayers because of convenience.
JK- Ive provided proof that the whole salat=prayer is bunk.
You have provided semantics, and uncertainties. "proof" would be historical evidence that the early Muslims used to "pray" randomly.
JK- As i said ive provided evidence now.
No, what you have done is change your argument. And you have even LESS proof for this new argument then you did for your first.
JK- So what about the point opposite the claimed focal point where all directions lead to the same , thus all unity breaking down? You didnt address that.
(that is funny)
Tell me, when a passenger aircraft takes off from JFK and lands at Heathrow, how does it land on the runway? According to your argument, it will keep going on forever because the direction goes on forever. I will tell you how it lands, because it is not making the direction of Heathrow as its destination, but the runway at Heathrow is the destination of the plane. When it reaches its destination, it has accomplished its goal, so it does not keep going in a circle forever. Common sense dictates that when you face an object on the grid, you make that object your objective, not the direction of the object itself. We are not worshiping the direction of Mecca, we are making the Kaabah a focal point for worship.
JK- This is exactly the prob. If we could face anywhere we like then what sense does it make for GOD to order to face a certain physical location in the 1st place. MOREOVER your now using COMMON SENSE in salat whilst you yourself said that there can be no use of rationality in this regard. Youve just contradicted yourself.
Ok, first of all, you have misunderstood my response. I did not say you could face anywhere you like. Please read what I said again. And secondly, I have not contradicted myself because I have not used my common sense in making Mecca the focal point of my worship. I did not come up with this idea myself.
JK- No i was clarifying my point with an example since you were asking me to prove a -ve namely that "muslims" didnt always pray 5 times.
No, that does not absolve you of a hypocritical fallacy. Because in order to support your point the example you gave was the same fallacy which you earlier accused (wrongly) me of giving you. (i.e. Argument from ignorance)
JK- If you bothered to read any of the articles i posted you would have known that there are so many verses where salat cannot mean prayer by any possible stretch. Please read those articles and if you find a flaw bring it here so we can discuss it.
I looked through those articles and I am telling you that they are just semantics. Because even the articles themselves state CLEARLY in the beginning that the word salat has "different" meanings. (i.e. multiple meanings, i.e. those meanings are not mutually exclusive). So even if their alternative meanings are valid, (which they probably are) it still does not mean that salat does not have ritual significance.
"For those who take guidance from 'al quran' ('the reading' alone, different views have emerged about the word "salat"."
http//www.free-minds.org/salat_anonJK- I can provide evidence for my understandings and you can for yours. Then it's upto people to decide which makes more sense and either we both will stay the same or Ill accedpt your views or you mine.
You have completely contradicted yourself here. If beliefs were based in "reason" and rationality then everyone would be following the same principles because we would all arrive at the same conclusion! Tell me, why was it that the Prophet PBUH only had around 60 followers for the first 16 years of his preaching!? You think that his arguments (the Quran) lacked any "reason"?? The fact is that God decides whose heart is allowed to be opened to faith and who remains rejected... It has nothing to do with reason and rationality.
JK- I was making clear to you that without independent natural observations converging to the same conclusions we cannot know what is closer to the truth. Thus taking your arguments i said every religion can claim to be right and it makes no sense whatsoever.
Exactly! Thank you for supporting my point. The fact is that every religion DOES claim to be right, and this DOES NOT make any sense whatsoever. Does it?
JK- I havnt disucssed these issues with atheists alot and many dont come to free minds or studfy the Quran at all. We can access the Quranic verses in question right here.
Well I have. Take a look at this thread from another forum. I invite you come and join if you want
http//www.interfaith.org/forum/proof-of-god-9794.htmlKeep in mind my views have changed somewhat since I made this post, as that was actually my first post on that forum last year. But I want you to notice the debate between me and the chief atheist there in the first few pages. Notice that even when his arguments were completely defeated (which happened numerous times on that forum actually) that one person in particular never gave up his position. He was banned several times, and is still on the forum today with a different name.
JK- Yes but that is when one is deliberately unwilling to beleive. However i dont beleive your willingly rejecting anything or are you? neither am i.
Consider this Can someone choose to reject guidance if God wills that person to be guided? Of course not. That is the point, it is not up to us to accept or reject anything, it is up to God who allows us to accept, or forbids us from accepting.
JK- I kindly ask you to gain read "aymans" article and see if you still find the hadith acceptable as historical documents.
I am already aware of the inadequacies of the hadith manuscripts. But I am also aware of their value as historical documents. All historical documents are flawed (except the Quran). If we were to rely on a perfect criteria, history as a field of study would end.
JK- I can only repeat ive provided evidence that salat<>ritual prayer at all. Now please go through those articles. GOD Bless!
Then you have exchanged your weak argument, for an even weaker one.
PeAcE
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peace jk, all,
To save you some time debating with "c0de", I strongly recommend reading the first two pages of this thread. It was proven he/she makes statements without reading past discussions or bothering to check the basic Arabic.
Thus, the chances of fruitful discussion about AQ with a person like this are almost zero.
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Salaam JK
Mr. CoDe has some unanswered questions
As you are claiming the prayers are not five so the burden of proof is on You? You should provide a historical or an otherwise proof for your claim.
When you keep on bringing the articles of ayman or others from this very site, that makes your case weak, because this is the very site which has put forward this claim.
Mr. Wakas; we donot know about the past of "CoDe" but at least in debate he is scoring well.
