What type of Riba is prohibited ?

jonny_k

Peace "mazhar",
From your post i deduced that you meant that a lender should only ask for his/her profit once the user has made a profit/loss using the loan, from your statement "Profit and loss is determined at the end of the day." If thats not what you meant please correct me. GOD Bless!

Rami

Peace all,

Let me put in another way

-Bayee' is return on labor whether mental or physical where a person consumes energy and time to accomplish a target.
-Riba is a return on capital be it in any form.

A currency is a representation of Labor or Physical effort. If you make your capital create the revenue for you, you are in actuality stealing the fruit of labor of another. So a Millionaire is almost always usurious as he can't put that much labor but he will make the capital work for him by taking the fruit of labor of others without him exerting effort. So the worker is actually working for the capitalist! A very clear human crime.

Peace,

Rami

jonny_k

Peace "rami",

Peace all,

Let me put in another way

-Bayee' is return on labor whether mental or physical where a person consumes energy and time to accomplish a target.
-Riba is a return on capital be it in any form.

A currency is a representation of Labor or Physical effort. If you make your capital create the revenue for you, you are in actuality stealing the fruit of labor of another. So a Millionaire is almost always usurious as he can't put that much labor but he will make the capital work for him by taking the fruit of labor of others without him exerting effort. So the worker is actually working for the capitalist! A very clear human crime.

Peace,

Rami

JK- NO to get to the point where interest can be charged can require alot of labor depending on the situation and how much adveretisment is needed, etc. And since when is capitalism considered Riba? I gave you a very simple example of a businessman setting up a complex business where he himself no longer needs to put in any labor whatsoever and yet keeps on receiving money. Is that Riba according to you? As for currency it not merely represents labor but all goods collectively. GOD Bless!

Rami

Peace "rami",

JK- NO to get to the point where interest can be charged can require alot of labor depending on the situation and how much adveretisment is needed, etc. And since when is capitalism considered Riba? I gave you a very simple example of a businessman setting up a complex business where he himself no longer needs to put in any labor whatsoever and yet keeps on receiving money. Is that Riba according to you? As for currency it not merely represents labor but all goods collectively. GOD Bless!

Sorry friend, it is the truth. All non-destructible working capital is Riba. That is the only way to get incredibly rich. Thats why the workers are always average but the investors are almost always rich. Simple maths. You are arguing because you are afraid to realize is that God and the modern world are on different poles.

Peace,

Rami

Mazhar

Peace "mazhar",
From your post i deduced that you meant that a lender should only ask for his/her profit once the user has made a profit/loss using the loan, from your statement "Profit and loss is determined at the end of the day." If thats not what you meant please correct me. GOD Bless!

Assalamo Alaikum,

The worldly life is for an appointed period of time. The sum total of acts done by each is "what he earned". In business parlance we call it balance sheet, which is prepared at the end of the financial year . In physical goods/products/commodities are given to the other party on the promise of payment of its cost/price in the future, hence value determined is much higher than it exists on the point of time these goods are being handed over. This phenomenon is equated by some people to be exactly equivalent to . In both, the gain is of capital, in unusual higher percentage. Allah, without giving explanation or assigning any reasons, straight tells His command that He declared Hilal and Haram. In the first case goods exchange hand and in the other only capital/cash/money is given to the needy to be returned with additional amount at certain percentage. General instructions about capital is illustrated by the Root " Nafq", it should remain flowing/invested in goods and commodities. If the blocked capital of only hundreds of people in the world is floated in the market, it may bring down prices of essential commodities to the reach of every man and provide jobs to all the jobless the world over. Millions and millions are below poverty line only because of withholding of capital for vested interest and keeping monoply and hold of the upper classes which is now a universal fraternity/mafia, notwithstanding apparently belonging to different religions. But they all have a common religion and interest and brotherhood.

jonny_k

Peace "Rami",

Sorry friend, it is the truth. All non-destructible working capital is Riba. That is the only way to get incredibly rich. Thats why the workers are always average but the investors are almost always rich. Simple maths. You are arguing because you are afraid to realize is that God and the modern world are on different poles.

Peace,

Rami

JK- I guess then the once Prophet Solomon was consuming Riiba too. I can point out why your arguemnt doesnt make sense. Conmsider two doctors in two different places. one gets paid more than the other. I might consider that both are doing exactly the same work. Another person would argue that the doctor being paid more actually works less. Yet another third party argues that infact both doctors are receving too much. Can Riba be pinned down on what the majority agrees on is what a particular worker/laborer deserves? NO, it doesnt make any sense because money IS ULTIMATELY BTW TWO PARTIES and is of no others concern. Someone may like doctor x more and hence he/shed get more money as compared to doctor y. It's totally individualistic and out of this capitalism gets formed automatically. HOWEVER what one can argue is that certain essential products for life e.g. oxygen, water, corn and some others should have a price so that everyone can attain them. Besides that it' shld all be free market. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "mazhar",

Assalamo Alaikum,

The worldly life is for an appointed period of time. The sum total of acts done by each is "what he earned". In business parlance we call it balance sheet, which is prepared at the end of the financial year . In physical goods/products/commodities are given to the other party on the promise of payment of its cost/price in the future, hence value determined is much higher than it exists on the point of time these goods are being handed over. This phenomenon is equated by some people to be exactly equivalent to . In both, the gain is of capital, in unusual higher percentage. Allah, without giving explanation or assigning any reasons, straight tells His command that He declared Hilal and Haram. In the first case goods exchange hand and in the other only capital/cash/money is given to the needy to be returned with additional amount at certain percentage. General instructions about capital is illustrated by the Root " Nafq", it should remain flowing/invested in goods and commodities. If the blocked capital of only hundreds of people in the world is floated in the market, it may bring down prices of essential commodities to the reach of every man and provide jobs to all the jobless the world over. Millions and millions are below poverty line only because of withholding of capital for vested interest and keeping monoply and hold of the upper classes which is now a universal fraternity/mafia, notwithstanding apparently belonging to different religions. But they all have a common religion and interest and brotherhood.

JK- Lemme first ask you two questions to get your understanding of Riba more clearly

Do you consider lending a currency at a predefined rate Riba?
Do you consider putting up cars/appartments for rent at a predefined rate Riba?
Now Im going to mention the same to you as i did to "rami". With the exception of essential products for human life like basic clothing, water, oxygen, corn and some others AL OTHER PRODUCTS SHLD BE FREELY MARKETABLE which means it doesnt matter how high the prices of those go. It's luxury and to get luxury im sorry to say you need the acceptance of other people. If your famous youre more likely to get them than if your not and there is no way around this. We cant force distributing luxurious goods amongst all people whom we consider are hard workers because even whos a hard worker and whos not is relative in so many cases. GOD Bless!

Raj-ah

Salaam,

Dear brothers the question asked is "what kind of Riba is prohibited in Quran"?

For this we have to refer to the Quran first
By going through the nine Quranic verses (2275-280, 3130, 4161, 3039) about riba, one sees that they prohibit riba in very strong language, but do not define it.
But the general understanding which one can assume is of that which the author ofthis thread has understood and posted in his first post.

Many of us here donot believe in Ahadith, but we can use them as source of understanding the matters that existed at that time. As the most of complcations surrounding this riba problem is due to Ahadith.

That the ahadith reliably coming from the Holy Prophet did not explicitly define or clarify the concept of riba is also supported by a saying attributed to Umar

?Indeed the last of what was revealed in the Qur`an is the ayah of al-riba and indeed the Messenger did not explain it before he died.?

This may not be an authentic saying of ?Umar, but it, nevertheless, shows an early perception among Muslims that the Holy Prophet had not explained the meaning of riba before his departure from this world.

Raj-ah

But the question is does the Quran not explains Riba in detail, Is it possible? Yes! Quran does it at some other places too where people of that time are familar with the "terms" used.
Riba is every kind of interest is a conclusion derived by AHadith and man made Shriah and not from the Quran.
Therefore as the man of today is more advanced in technology and techniocal skills then the man of 1300 years ago, and the needs of man of today are different from the man of 1300 years ago, we must arrive at the exact menaing of Riba what Quran meant because it is only Quran the words of which are considered to be eternal.

Raj-ah

We shall also consider the punishments announced for taking "riba"

The punishment (burning in the fire in hell) for usury is mentioned in Surah # 2 Al-Baqarah - verse 275
after the verses advising charity and spending in the way of Allah. In verse 276, it is shown that Allah has blighted usury and made alms giving fruitful. Verses 278 & 279 order giving up what remains from usury or else have war with Allah and his messenger.
A painful doom is indicated in the verse 161 of Surah # 4 Al Nisa for those who take usury as also those who devour people's wealth by false pretenses.
In Surah # 30 Ar Rum - verse 39, it is indicated that charity is rewarding manifold and usury has no actual increase.

We shall consider that such harsh punishments are awarded at which places in Quran?

Is it for some one who wants to gain profit on his business or for some one who is taking advantage of poors and needy?

The major question is if we consider Riba all kind of interest than the present banking system fails? and if it fails what are the consequences?
Do we have other alternative system? if Yes! please discuss it, aside from just using arabic terms for english terms such Mudaraba, Murabaha, Gharar etc.

jonny_k

Peace "rajah",
Exactly Riba has to dfo with exploting the poor and needy nothing to do with busniess conduct. The hadith is absoltely ridiculous. Actually the mullahs have only claimed lending of a currency as Riba because it is BACKED BY GOLD AMONG OTHER THINGS and in hadith we find the Prophet Muhammad supposedly prohibiting any rental on gold claiming it to be riiba. It cant get any more absurd than that. GOD Bless!

Abdun_Nur

Salaam,

to understand Usury you must first understand ownership, without this it is impossible to grasp correctly, nothing can ever truly be owned by any human being, a fleeting spark (a person) can only be the custodian of anything, things are used for a short time, things are consumed, things are exploited, or things are invented, but ultimately all things are ephemeral.

To horde fiat money, gold, silver, sheep or whatever beyond any purpose or benefit, is at the detriment of those around you. You maybe the richest person in the grave yard, but not one coin, not one property, not one atom goes beyond this world and into the next, you leave this world with everything you held, owned or stole; lost?

Only those things of the mind are intermediaries, thought remains, the things of thought do not.

All things go back to the Earth, all things are allodial, to think otherwise is only the confusion of a subjugated mind.

To understand allodial ownership please read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/

(Usury the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else?s labour.)

Many are confused as to what usury is, and what usury is not, but it is a very simple concept only confused by one thing, the desire to gain from usury while wishing to remain a Muslim.

All the Earth is allodial, as are the fruits of the Earth, for example if I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.

This is in contrast to usury, if I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.

Or if I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.

The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.

To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practiced through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.

These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.

farida