Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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As verse 7431 states, hypocrites and unappreciative people will not understand the implication of 19 after its prophecy is fulfilled. It is a test, which will distinguish those who choose to progress from those who choose to regress.
Currently, I do not have much time to debate with those who reject the great sign and prophecy... In fact, since last 25 years I have debated it with many people; privately or publicly, on TV or Internet, via articles or books...
I read Bahnam's statements about 1974 and I could not understand exactly what he was trying to say. As for me, I have no doubt that the time of discovery is chosen by God and it is a great prophecy
The prophecy of 19 is in chapter 74 and it was fulfilled in 1974! Some people, in order to blind themselves to this and many other great prophecies, might question the origin of 1974, as some people might question the origin of some Arabic words used in the Quran.... But, the following fact remains If God used an arbitrary human language, the language of mushrik Arabs to deliver his message, then the same God could use an arbitrary but popularly used date to show his power over the timing of his prophetic miracle. Period.
For Ayman and his ilk, I would like to re-remind the following verse 7146
Peace,
Edipmr. edip,
debate, cyber boxing match, brawl.... etc. not interested.
what i am interested in is speak the truth.
as for reminding me of 7146, i accept the ayat and i put my trust in allah to judge me whether or not i am a mutakbbir.
i find peace of mind in that and in the book of allah including the follwing ayatal-Baqarah 002002
22al-Imran 003003
33al-Imran 003007
37ash-Shura 042014
4214Fussilat 041052
4152ar-Ra`d 013036
1336at-Taubah (Repentance) 9124
9124at-Taubah (Repentance) 9125
9125al-Imran (The Family of Imran, The House of Imran) 3119
3119al-Hijr 015009
159Fussilat 041042
4142you know mr. edip, the primary difference between us is that one person puts his faith and trust for salavation in #19, while the other puts his trust in allah and believes in the whole book.
sincerely
khodr -
Peace bro "ayman",
Again lets say all the initial counts are arbitary and/or wrong except we found the two chapters which contained the letter "qaf" in their initials, namely chapter hamim ain sin qaaf and chapter qaf both contain the letters "qaaf" 57 times DESPITE ONE CHPTER BEING ALMOST TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHE and 57+57=114 and 114 being the chappters in the Quran and Q being the first letter of the word Quran. Even if we had not found any other significant ZMNs with other initials would this alone not be significant at all? GOD Bless! -
Peace everyone.
Whilst I like a good debate, I don't think that this can productively go anywhere. Surely we need to agree to disagree on this subject and move on to more important things. By one person proving a point over another, are we helping the human cause in any way? Sure, it's the understanding of the quran, but all this energy could be put into more useful pursuits. The basics about salat we haven't reached a concensus on yet. The world energy crisis is getting worse day by day, yet we spend time persuing these debates which don't do anything.
I may be out of turn, for that my apologies. But please people, let's agree to disagree and move on...
d
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"Oh Lord ...Code 19 making You as Numerologist. Please forgive them.. They are speaking out of ignorance as if they have found something to prove You.You are unseen and defining You with seen double digit Numeric number 19. We know You are testing them . By this time any one read this mail ... millions stars are created by You and die at Your command millions things are under at Your order. A tsunami can be created or eartquake is created by You . Such a Greatness and power, You have.. instead of pondering You.. people have started pondering on 19... Oh Lord they are wasting Zikr. Oh Lord You are the most meriful.. Please forgive them... And You know whom to forgive... Oh Lord Please forgive me if anything wrong in this mail"
Its ridiculous.. If we keep my name which falls as 19 as per Numerology...Then Shall we step into heaven ?
"Oh Lord You only know to whom you have to wisdom and clarity with reality"
After checking Numerology 19 = 1+ 9 = 10 = 1+0= 1... Its number one..ie One GOD for such a simple truth people are debating for years?.
There are so countless things Quran to Understand... But they are standing under 19 and counting... Luckily I am skipping this Code 19 and if we involve too much we will forget GOD and carried off with evil and start calculating along with devil.
Now we have to decide as we need one GOD or start counting.
Love
Jango O0 -
peace
Should we ignore the one God's signs?
what if this is a positive sign?
how do we judge?
reason? logic?
surely with something.
Peace be with you Jango
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No, we should not ignore the signs of God.
However, there are 'firm' signs we can hold on to. The ones which are not so firm - why spend valuable time debating. IF they are absolutely necessary for our guidance, why is it not clear. I'm sure you agree with me that the quran is a clear record. If something is unclear, don't ignore it, but stop wasting time debating. One person sees something the other does not. You cannot just change someone's viewpoint. My writing this now is a prime example of this. Some will see me as trying to 'cover' a possible sign.
You are alive. That is a sign
You hopefully have health. That is a sign
You have food in the fridge. That is a sign
You are not afraid for your life. That is a signIt is a sign to act and do something for the rest of humanity which doesn't have these things.
Believing or not believing in code 19 is imho not a necessity. I believe in God. I have faith in God. I trust in God. That is enough. I'm not ignoring code 19, just putting it to one side whilst I try and help someone.
This debating is polarising groups of people. This splitting into 'I believe in code 19' and 'I don't agree with it' is wrong. To be honest, who cares? There are more pressing concerns in the world than these and we should hold firm to the quran and try to find commonalities and celebrate those. If we disagree on something, then fine, we disagree. I don't agree with everyones opinion, but it doesn't matter, what matters is that we believe in one God and we do good works, surely that is enough.
d -
I don't agree with everyones opinion, but it doesn't matter, what matters is that we believe in one God and we do good works, surely that is enough.
Well said, I agree with your posts. But then again, what do you expect on a discussion forum
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Of course, and there will be those who think they're benefiting others when in reality they are actually being destructive. I think on a discussion forum though, it's hard to stop the spurious debates since everyone has a different opinion and they think they have the right of it. My thoughts however at this moment in time seem to coincide with
The world energy crisis is getting worse day by day, yet we spend time persuing these debates which don't do anything.
peace
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Peace Darcus,
This debating is polarising groups of people. This splitting into 'I believe in code 19' and 'I don't agree with it' is wrong. To be honest, who cares?
Only those who believe in Code 19 care. Those who don't agree with it naturally don't care. Personally, I don't care about Code 19 no more than I care about Hadiths or other falsehoods. In fact, much like Sunnis who never contest that Bukhari shared only a small percentage out of hundreds of thousands of Hadiths, in the course of our debate Edip never, not even once, contested that Khalifa only shared a small percentage of his trials that were successful and he hid thousands of failed trials. Had Khalifa shared all his trials then everyone would have been able to see right away that the success to failure ratio is about 1 in 19, which is the natural occurrence of 19 divisibles in any random sample, and no one would have wasted any time on Code 19.
Peace,
Ayman
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I totally understand where you're coming from Ayman, totally. I also understand where Edip is coming from too. But it just reminds me of the time when I was butting heads with the local barelwis about their shirk that I forgot I was doing the same. Pride started kicking in and I started doing those things I despised others for. Sure, debating is good and fun most of the time. Something I came across some time ago - 'confirmation bias'. Interesting concept. I think we should all at sometime look it up and remind ourselves of it's effects. This goes out to everyone, 19er or not. We will always 'find' and accept things which confirm how we feel. We cannot be truly objective without keeping this in mind at all times when making an opinion. If we are mindful of ourselves, we can walk upright and in security of our faith, regardless of what that is.
It all leads to the one true God. I don't mean to trivialise this subject but seriously. How does proving code 19 as true or false benefit mankind? If I agree with you Ayman it is because it confirms my beliefs as a scientist that code 19 does not stand up to scrutiny and ALL data true or false should be shared so that objective conclusions can be reached by people.If we hypothesise that code 19 is true and the only data we provide is positive, it will mislead. IF that is truly the case then the method of reaching that data must be analysed and the results independently reproduced so as to negate confirmation bias.
If we hypothesise that code 19 is false and the data proves this, and the EXACT same criteria for proving it true then the method and its results are in error. If I were to compare two exactly opposing experiments and all things are controlled, then I should reach the same conclusion irrespective of the hypothesis.Now, we sit here talking about 19 this and 19 that, even I'm involved and I don't care. I just care that we waste time on this. There are some serious brains on this forum, why don't we all join forces and deal with the bigger problems. We are free-minds after all, or are we just looking for confirmation?
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I agree with Darcus.
Whether or not the Quran contains an intentional mathematical feature put there by its author, its message is forever lasting, therefore, that should be our aim.
Research is crucial, third party criticism even more so; but we must resist any temptation of diverting efforts and protracting debate.
I happen to believe that such a mathematical feature exists and that it has been placed there by its author. However, in all my years on this forum, I have not engaged in a single debate regarding this issue, and I refuse to be lured into one.
My efforts are better spent elsewhere.
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Peace Darcus,
Only those who believe in Code 19 care. Those who don't agree with it naturally don't care. Personally, I don't care about Code 19 no more than I care about Hadiths or other falsehoods. In fact, much like Sunnis who never contest that Bukhari shared only a small percentage out of hundreds of thousands of Hadiths, in the course of our debate Edip never, not even once, contested that Khalifa only shared a small percentage of his trials that were successful and he hid thousands of failed trials. Had Khalifa shared all his trials then everyone would have been able to see right away that the success to failure ratio is about 1 in 19, which is the natural occurrence of 19 divisibles in any random sample, and no one would have wasted any time on Code 19.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman again is repeating his deceptive debate and diatribe.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of chapters between the only missing Basmala and the only missing Basmala are exactly 19 chapters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
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No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number 19 is only mentioned in chapter 74 (which starts with the word Muddathir, the Hidden one), remained hidden by God's leave until 1974, exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic and historic facts.
There are numerous of such facts, yet there must exist some arrogant ingrates in order the prophecy of 19 in chapter 74 to come true. See 7431.
Here is my challenge to you Ayman, and I will post it in other forums and groups
I will meet you anywhere in the USA and Canada, face to face for a live debate. Or, I will pay for your trip and invite you to a studio for a professional recording of our debate. I will pay for all the cost involved. I will expose your distortion and deception. From my own experience, I have learned that the best way to expose falsehood is to subject them to Socratec Dialouge. We will record our live debate and put on the internet so that people will hear both sides in a dynamic debate.
I hope you will not try to find excuse to escape such a challenge. You have nothing to fear, since those appreciate 19 have not hurt even the pinkie of deniers. If there is one who is justified to be concerned about his safety is me, and I do not care since I put my trust in God fully and I do not have an iota of fear to be a witness for His message.
Peace,
EdipAn excerpt from the appendix of Quran a Reformist Translation
A Great Prophecy is Fulfilled and the Secret is Unveiled
The miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran. Though, in retrospect, the implication of 19 in Chapter 74 traditionally called Hidden One, were obvious, it remained a secret for 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. Ironically, the first words of the Chapter 74, The Hidden One, was revealing, yet the code was a divinely guarded gift allocated to the computer generation; they were the one who would need and appreciate it the most. As we have demonstrated in various books, hundreds of simple and complex algorithms, we witness the depth and breath of mathematical manipulation of Arabic, an arbitrary human language, to be profound and extraordinary.
This is the fulfillment of a Quranic challenge (178. While the meaning of the Quranic text and its literal excellence was kept, all its units, from chapters, verses, words to its letters were also assigned universally recognizable roles in creation of mathematical patterns. Since its discovery, the number 19 of the Quran and the Bible has increased the faith of many believers, has removed doubts in the minds of many People of the Book, and has caused discord, controversy and chaos among those who have traded the Quran with men-made sectarian teachings. This is indeed a fulfillment of a Quranic prophecy (7430-31).
Various verses of the Quran mention an important miracle that will appear after its revelation.
1020 They say, "If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord." Say, "The future is with God, so wait, and I will wait with you."
2137 The human being is made of haste. I will show you My signs; do not be in a rush.
380 In the name of God, the Gracious, the Compassionate.
381 S90, and the Quran that contains the Reminder.
382 Indeed, those who have rejected are in false pride and defiance.
383 How many a generation have We destroyed before them. They called out when it was far too late.
384 They were surprised that a warner has come to them from among themselves. The ingrates said, "This is a magician, a liar."
385 "Has he made the gods into One god? This is indeed a strange thing!"
386 The leaders among them went out "Walk away, and remain patient to your gods. This thing can be turned back."
387 "We never heard of this from the people before us. This is but an innovation."
388 "Has the remembrance been sent down to him, from between all of us!" Indeed, they are doubtful of My reminder. Indeed, they have not yet tasted My retribution.
3887 "It is but a reminder for the worlds."
3888 "You will come to know its news after awhile."
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
The beginning of Chapter 25 refers to the arguments of the opponents who denied the divine nature of the Quran
254 Those who rejected said, "This is but a falsehood that he invented and other people have helped him with it; for they have come with what is wrong and fabricated."
255 They said, "Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."
The awaited miracle, the hidden mathematical structure
The subsequent verse gives an enigmatic answer to the assertion of those who claimed that the Quran is manmade.
256 Say, "It was sent down by the One who knows the secrets in the heavens and the earth. He is always Forgiving, Compassionate."
How can "knowing the secret" constitute an answer for those who assert that the Quran is Muhammad's work? Will the proof or evidence of the divine authorship of the Quran remain a secret known by God alone? Or, will the antagonists be rebuffed by that divine mystery? If there should be a relationship between the objection and answer, then we can infer from the above verse that a SECRET will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran.
The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death
1338 We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring. It was not for a messenger to come with any sign except by God's leave, but for every time there is a decree.
1339 God erases what He wishes and affirms, and with Him is the source of the book.
1340 If We show you some of what We promise them or if We let you pass away, for you is only to deliver, while for Us is the reckoning.
The last phrase of verse 1340 quoted above is interesting, The meaning of this phrase becomes clearer after the discovery of Code 19, since the Arabic word "HeSaaB" refers to both the "day of judgment" and "numerical computation." * The deliberate use of multi-meaning words is very common in the Quran. For instance, the word "AaYah" occurs 84 times in the Quran and in all occurrences it means "miracle," "sign" or "law." However, its plural form "AaYAat" also means "revelation" or "verses of the Quran." This unique usage equates minimum three verses of the Quran (in Arabic, a different form is used for duality) with miracle. It also pulls our attention to the parallelism between God's signs/laws in the universe and God's revelation in human language they share the same source and the same truth. In the following verse the plural word "AaYAat" is used not to mean "revelation" but "miracle, sign or physical manifestation"
6158 Do they wait until the angels will come to them, or your Lord comes, or some signs from your Lord? The day some signs come from your Lord, it will do no good for any person to acknowledge if it did not acknowledge before, or it gained good through its acknowledgement. Say, "Wait, for we too are waiting."
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No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6.
there are 113 chapters in quran and not 114. besides how useful is code 19 that you have created a new sect and another idol called code 19?
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Salamun alaikum,
Brother Edip. You are correct, the numbered items do indeed exist. That is great. However, is there, in your opinion a concerted effort by individuals to provide an 'anti-19' website, or call it propaganda to promote that? I don't see any. There is, however plenty of 'pro-19' material available all over the net, included in the translation you had a part in.
I don't think that a debate with Ayman will achieve anything. I did a short time ago contact Dr Zakir Naik to see if he would be willing to have a live debate with monotheists such as yourself, however after they researched you - he declined. I personally believe we have to engage the sunnis at THEIR game, on TV, publicly showing that they don't have a leg to stand on. Instead, we have this polarisation between our own about 19 - which to be honest is something I personally dislike. The 19 issue to me is something as I have stated before of the Mutashabiha, and not Muhkhamat, so I don't want to be of those who debate the 'oft-repeated' seeking to derive meaning and focus on the others instead.
I don't mean to represent Ayman or yourself, I have the great respect for both of you as I do for other active members of the God-Alone movement, but please, you are brothers and should not be wasting your considerable intellects on this issue. Remember that the enemies of Islam will use this to serve their needs to drive a wedge into our movement. Yes, we have various views, but that is our strength, and a weakness. We must learn to agree on some basic fundamentals and then allow ourselves the freedom to interpret the mutashabiha as we please.
With love and respect.
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there are 113 chapters in quran and not 114. besides how useful is code 19 that you have created a new sect and another idol called code 19?
This is your excuse and I have no doubt you will regret it in the Day of Judgment.
Then, you must be thinking that most of the Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and present have conspired with us to prove the number 19? What about all the Quran manuscripts that separate chapter 9 from 8?
Peace
Edip -
This is your excuse and I have no doubt you will regret it in the Day of Judgment.
You've just proved that you follow a new sect and worship your idol, everyday i here such stupid talk that if you don?t follow hadith of bukhari you will regret it in the day of judgement.. if you don?t worship our black idol you are gonna regret it. sure, if you people are the judge that day? D
Then, you must be thinking that most of the Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and present have conspired with us to prove the number 19?
you know i?m not surprised, in our country all these sunni sects keep fighting with each other over small differences of how should they pray blah blah, but they all have full consensus over all their anti-quranic laws like ?stoning to death? ?death of apostate? ?marriage with minor? etc
What about all the Quran manuscripts that separate chapter 9 from 8?
Peace
EdipI see, so that is you proof? Old is gold?
Peace )
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the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 lettersthe opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters
Have you ever counted that they are really 19? If so please give 19 letters in serial seperately to cross verify the claim. Thanks.
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Have you ever counted that they are really 19? If so please give 19 letters in serial seperately to cross verify the claim. Thanks.
No Mazhar. I just parrot someone else's findings, like all Sunnis and Shiites do. It is very difficult for me to count 19 letters! I am not a genius.
Peace,
Edip