We Koranist must save the Muslim youths in Western nations
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Peace,
But isn't that the same thing the Saudi's did? Being discreet about their wahhabism and portraying their teachings as "Sunni" orthodoxy?
You are completely right. This is exactly what the Wahabi's and Salafi's did. They portrayed Wahabism and Salafism as orthodox Sunni Islam. The same is true of the Shia, Khomeini ideology which came to be seen as Orthodox Shia Islam. They made you believe that this is how Islam was practiced since the time of the Prophet.
I have to admit I am guilty of propagating in a similar way. I preach Qur'an only Islam as if it is Islam. I make all my arguments based on the Qur'an and only the Qur'an. If I need more information on anything I consult the Qur'an, and if I require further insight I ask for help on these message boards or read the various articles related to the various issues discussed here.
When I speak to people that are not familiar with Islam, I explain Islam based on the Qur'an as well. However, if the discussion does get longer, I do mention that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an. They often get confused when I say this, "what do you mean the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an?" I know... Ironic isint it.
Furthermore, I've also gotten a lot of support from "traditional conservative Muslims" when I debate people who are insulting Islam. I'll be given an argument like "Muslims have to stone their women to death" or some such nonsense. Of course the regular traditional people get all riled up and start barking, however I just ask the person making the argument to find a verse in the Qur'an that asks Muslims to stone anyone for any crime. To which they never have a reply. The traditional Muslims hearing this take heed, and ironically they go and try to find a verse that calls for stoning as a form of capital punishment as well, and naturally come back amazed and shocked that this integral part "shariah" law is not mentioned in the Qur'an.
The question of stoning adulterers is one of the best ways to get a traditional Muslim to begin questioning, and to come and see that the Qur'an does not ask you to grow a beard, does not force to cover your hair (or face), does not ask you to amputate hands for theft, beat your wife, and of course stone adulterers to death. If they believe that these things are non-Islamic, then we have made incredible progress.If they want to truly follow Islam based on the Qur'an, then I am glad to introduce them to that ideology as well, and all the amazing thought provoking things that come with it.
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Peace,
In Holland I have seen the same problems for years, and since I turned Muslim I have been counceling youth and giving lectures. Now I am working on a new book specially for young Muslims that is called "Rational Islam", wherein I go through rational thought in Islamic history and the universality of the Qur'an and how the Golden Age of Islam together with the universal approach to the Qur'an will give them a new identity focus and inspiration to create their own identity in the West.
They must learn to be proud of something again and use their rational sceptic mind they have been taught in the West to discover rational islam as a basis for a new approach and pride.
Salaam brother Arnold Yasin
I wish you all the success with your book and I hope you get it published, as we desperately need unbiased and focused rationality and we do need to show our youth how liberal Muslims have been in the past .
All the best
farida -
I agree with Sarat. You must be discreet about propagating your belief even when it's beyond a shadow of doubt that your belief is the truth. Honesty won't help with prejudiced minds(I'm not saying honesty isn't the best policy. I'm telling to be honest in an inconspicuous way )
Salaam
I know of a person from free-minds who went to preach to the Sunni, with copies of the black stone, without any prior discussion and naturlly he received violent reactions. A gradual approach focusing on minor differences leading to more contentious issues is the right approch in my opinion; if only people would take rational steps instead of blaming others for being irrational. pr
peace -
then now Wahhabism became weaker
Peace,
I agree that the Wahabi era seems to be coming to an end with Muslim youth in America at least.
I do not know if you both speak of wahabism in america, but I am afraid this is wishful thinking "I am speaking in general, not specifically about america". Wahabism or traditional Islam is in its strongest. They are becoming more sinster and professional liars in a serious way, like fabricating "scientific findings" to give credence to hadith; or even fabricating archeological finding to give credence to islamic history. Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves. The small light in this sombre picture is the growing number of people who are questioning the significance of hadiths and the added-on Islamic teachings, thanks to the internet and to the safety of western countries. I would also add to these countries, Syria and, to my surprise, the Sudan, where the first tolerates thinkers like Prof. Shahrour, Dr Zakariyya Ozone and maybe others, and the latter for not punishing Dr Turabi for his declaration for rejecting hadith (albeit too late).
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Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves.
Salaam,
No exaggeration, I was told that even the Qur?an lesson for women at homes ? Daras gatherings ? are sponsored by SA in London.
peace -
Salaam brother Arnold Yasin
I wish you all the success with your book and I hope you get it published, as we desperately need unbiased and focused rationality and we do need to show our youth how liberal Muslims have been in the past .
All the best
faridaWasalaam sister,
Thank you for your support. Rationality is the key, and although we have a long struggle ahead in freeing the minds, it is the right struggle to dedicate our energy and time too.
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I do not know if you both speak of wahabism in america, but I am afraid this is wishful thinking "I am speaking in general, not specifically about america". Wahabism or traditional Islam is in its strongest. They are becoming more sinster and professional liars in a serious way, like fabricating "scientific findings" to give credence to hadith; or even fabricating archeological finding to give credence to islamic history. Even more serious is the monies they are investing in their campaign For example, in the UK, almost all Islamic departments I know of in renowned universities are sponsored by SA, the growing number of sattelite channels that support this version, and most of all, the growing number of "amir ul muimineen" leaders who invent laws and punishments for anyone who dares think for themselves. The small light in this sombre picture is the growing number of people who are questioning the significance of hadiths and the added-on Islamic teachings, thanks to the internet and to the safety of western countries. I would also add to these countries, Syria and, to my surprise, the Sudan, where the first tolerates thinkers like Prof. Shahrour, Dr Zakariyya Ozone and maybe others, and the latter for not punishing Dr Turabi for his declaration for rejecting hadith (albeit too late).
What I noticed is the situation is changing in Egypt. There is a lot of talk about the Koranist in Egypt and the Egyptian press had articles attacking Aisha and Abu Hurreira and Bukhari. The fact that the fatwa by Al Azhar was recently issued against the Koranist says a lot about the fear the Egyptian clerics have. But there are other places like Pakistan where its seems dead. There needs to be some big news for people to catch on. There is no Koranist state like there is Sunni and Shia. Many people simply have never heard of the Koranists and even if they do they do not know its significance. Koranist are not very politically active. Many liberals in the Arab world are very interested in forming alliances with Koranist. The Arab satellites like Al Jazeera or Al Arabiya do not talk about the Koranist although Al Arabiya net does. Its like they believe they can discuss this topic in their websites but not on TV. Egyptian TV does sometimes especially when there is some debate or controversy.
Al Jazeera is very much Salafi and there is nothing we can do about it. The GCC countries have the wealth in the Arab world and their media is Salafi oriented when it comes to religion. But Egyptian TV I think is catching on slowly.
If you look at the letter signed by Egyptian exiles to Hosni Mubarak demanding reform, the only religious figure there was Ahmed Subhi manosur. A clear indication that as far as Egypt is sconcerned the Koranist have become almost the Muftis of the liberal and secular forces. Gamal Banna also has enormous popularity now there. But I am not sure elsewhere but maybe I am wrong.
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Peace Samia,
I'm not implying that the Wahabi and Salafi days are over. I'm implying that in the United States there influence is beginning to wane especially since Muslim youth have the internet to learn about Islam, and that many of our viewpoints are now easy to find on the web.
But yes, the Wahabi threat remains because it is backed by petro dollars. However, they are now finally acknowledging our presence rather than ignoring it. Which means the real idealogical battle is yet to come. =P
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Peace,
You are completely right. This is exactly what the Wahabi's and Salafi's did. They portrayed Wahabism and Salafism as orthodox Sunni Islam. The same is true of the Shia, Khomeini ideology which came to be seen as Orthodox Shia Islam. They made you believe that this is how Islam was practiced since the time of the Prophet.
I have to admit I am guilty of propagating in a similar way. I preach Qur'an only Islam as if it is Islam. I make all my arguments based on the Qur'an and only the Qur'an. If I need more information on anything I consult the Qur'an, and if I require further insight I ask for help on these message boards or read the various articles related to the various issues discussed here.
When I speak to people that are not familiar with Islam, I explain Islam based on the Qur'an as well. However, if the discussion does get longer, I do mention that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an. They often get confused when I say this, "what do you mean the vast majority of Muslims do not practice Islam based on the Qur'an?" I know... Ironic isint it.
Furthermore, I've also gotten a lot of support from "traditional conservative Muslims" when I debate people who are insulting Islam. I'll be given an argument like "Muslims have to stone their women to death" or some such nonsense. Of course the regular traditional people get all riled up and start barking, however I just ask the person making the argument to find a verse in the Qur'an that asks Muslims to stone anyone for any crime. To which they never have a reply. The traditional Muslims hearing this take heed, and ironically they go and try to find a verse that calls for stoning as a form of capital punishment as well, and naturally come back amazed and shocked that this integral part "shariah" law is not mentioned in the Qur'an.
The question of stoning adulterers is one of the best ways to get a traditional Muslim to begin questioning, and to come and see that the Qur'an does not ask you to grow a beard, does not force to cover your hair (or face), does not ask you to amputate hands for theft, beat your wife, and of course stone adulterers to death. If they believe that these things are non-Islamic, then we have made incredible progress.If they want to truly follow Islam based on the Qur'an, then I am glad to introduce them to that ideology as well, and all the amazing thought provoking things that come with it.
Nicely said.....what a brilliant explanation from a muslim stand point i mean a true muslim that follows the quran.
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Peace,
In the beginning I don't tell people that I reject the Hadith. I just tell them what the Qur'an says on specific matters without bringing up any hadith at all. After a few weeks, months, sometimes years, I let them into more of my ideological stances regarding various issues. My main concern is to get these Muslims to stop believing that amputations are "ok," that wife beating is ok, that stoning is ok, I use the Qur'an to prove to them that these practices are Un-Islamic according to the Qur'an. Most people accept these viewpoints if you paint it to them within the framework of the Qur'an. This is especially true considering that I've noticed a significant decline in Salafi influence. I just talk about what I talk about as if it were Islam and nothing but Islam.
In any case I'm content knowing that there are a growing number of Muslims that don't believe the head scarf is wajib, that amputations are "sharia", that stoning is "sharia", and that men are equal to 2 females. This is enough for me at the moment. There are so many things discussed on FreeMinds that would just overwhelm the average person that identifies as a Muslim, so the aforementioned progress is huge in my eyes.
But this may raise questions as to what is Islamic then? I have still not had anyone tell me what is the meaning of Islamic? And what are Islamic law? I see the usefullness of that but is it the right analysis? Anyways it seems you are successful as far as making people change some of their beliefs. But I think the issue is not only changing the common man's belief but creating a strong ideological framework where we can operate from. Usually the more religious ones are the activist and just saying in Islam there is no this or that I think its simplistic. But anyways it seems you got it going on pretty good and maybe I should try these tactics at least with the laymen.
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Peace Bigmo,
I agree with you completely Bigmo. Its not an excellent strategy for bringing people to the Qur'an only viewpoint exclusively and I am guilty of using the same tactics as the Salafi's.
But at the same time we have to understand that many of the people that identify as Muslims don't seem to have a problem with some of the things we take issue with, or never even thought about them at all. So, I think the best way is to start by telling people what the Qur'an says on some issues that the majority of Muslim Identifying peoples seem to have a consensus on then see what happens in their minds. If they decide to want to know more, Mashallah, thats great, but if they don't then we have to try again later.
But I can say this, in the 9 years I have been propagating at the Masjid I attend, I have seen a large difference in peoples attitudes. I'm not the only one there with a Qur'an only viewpoint; there are hundreds now. Its gotten to the point where some of the Imams I talk with say that this is the path forward for Islam and some Imams are actually stressing the importance of the Qur'an over the hadith now at Jum'uah. However, its going to be some time before there is a re-evaluation of Salat, Hajj, and other things that we talk about here. I think its important that we go back to the Masjids and ensure that our viewpoints are heard, after all we are just asking them to view Islam through the Qur'an and nothing more.
Also, for many people that identify as Muslims, Islam is just a part of their cultural identity. So its not just an interpretation of Islam that your arguing against, its also their culture that your questioning. Unfortunately, this has been one of the greatest hurdles to overcome for me, I've actually had more success with Salafi's than with the "cultural Muslims."
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Interesting discussion in Umar Lee's blog about how second generation Muslims in the West are having an identity crisis. With the mosques controlled by Sunnis many hang around elsewhere where no knowledge of religion is there. Unlike Muslim countries these people can not learn anything about religion from family and school and society. They have to go to mosques where hardline Sunnis hang around. Many opt to just never go to mosques because of that and are confused. They are vulnerable and they look at the internet to learn about Islam. We must do more to save these kids before they really get lost and become atheist or something. What you think?
Anyways this is the blog discussion
http//umarlee.com/2009/02/16/perspective-digital-divide-online-persona-and-reverse-hijrah/#commentsPeace,
Respectfully.I have come to the conclusion that talking and asking questions and establishing dialogue, is the logical way to find the Straight path, if God wills. I?ve been talking to several sunnis over the past two years but i now strongly think that they may be lost forever, unless God guides them. Why? Because they do not interact with non-sunnis.
Therefore, we must interact with others more.
Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
Salafism is stronger than ever. I cant wait for the emergence of alternative energy so Saudi Arabia will be back to its desert way fighting over a well and not having enough money to build 'evil' mosques throughout the world.
And do you think if it wasn't for the rise of fudamentalism we would have a market? In fact many of us would not be here if it wasn't for Salafism and how it made us feel that something ain't right here. So the more it spreads the more salafi burn outs and the more liberals feeling the need to look for alternative explanations. In fact the printing press and the distribution of the hadith material and its availability with people like Ayaan Ali, Wafa Sultan and Robert Spencer is helping Koranism rise.
But I think what Sarat said about how the Islamic identity and its intertwining with people's culture is a hard stumbling block is very important for us to consider. It means forget about old people living in rural community who see Islam like its a tribal custom and a national lifestyle. But I enjoyed some of her observation. I can see how each one of us have a different experience depending on the kinds of people we interact with.
I am a net guy, I believe the more information is spread around in the net the more it will trickle down to society.
But there is one thing I wnat to share.
In an interview on TV, former Sudanese de facto leader and Islamist ideologue but now turned reformist, Hassan Al Turabi, said that he found that going directly to the masses with small literature requires a lot of work as people rarely read and are not too easy to change. He said that as a criticism about his Islamist movement. He said that a better way was to right detailed books with lots of information and arguments and insights that intellectuals read and then these intellectuals trickle it down to society. This is something I have been thinking of. Its lucky that most intellectuals are big time internet users. And I think thats how the debate about the Israel Lobby in America burst open, it was through the net as Walt and Mearsheimer also observed. The traditional forced generally are controlling the traditional media outlets such as mosques and recently newspapers and libraries and TV and radio.
But I wonder why Turabi said that. Some people say never trust what he says. But I think it was an important observation as he was active from the 50s but like many Islamist he targeted students and used catchy slogans but he seems to think it ruined the Islamist agenda. Some say he ruined it with his hypocrysy and greed.