Help with Quranic Word!
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Respected Sister thanks for sharing your understanding of this issue. Also you are imlying that your mother tongue in one of the dialect of current spoken language. Let me humbly ask you this. What is the meaning of word . In your opinion does this word need any Harkaat to make it's meaning to be understood. If yes, what should be those Harkaat? Thanks again for your keen participation in discussion.
Badar
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Respected Sister thanks for sharing your understanding of this issue. Also you are imlying that your mother tongue in one of the dialect of current spoken language. Let me humbly ask you this. What is the meaning of word . In your opinion does this word need any Harkaat to make it's meaning to be understood. If yes, what should be those Harkaat? Thanks again for your keen participation in discussion.
Badar
You're welcome.
There are two different kinds of "harakaat short vowels"
- Those which form part of the word for example the damma and sukuun on one and the two fat-ha on the other and . These vowels are respected in all spoken and written dialects because they affect the very meaning of the word. They are the counterparts of the short vowels in any other language (just as in sun and son).
- Grammatical vocalization, usually at the end of the word, and without which the meaning of the word is not affected, e.g and (the book, for all three words). They are normally neglected in the spoken language, except for a few words emphasized with tanween such as "shukran"; "3afwan"...
- There's, however, another kind which falls between the two the one linked to mrphology, and which,then, forms part of the word and is therefore not neglected in the spoken language such as (accuser) and (accused).
For the word , if it's just written, it could be either ablution or two words and light, and thus would mean and light. The spoken is not different from the written, since the difference here is essential vocalization and not grammatical one,i.e, if it's pronounced, one would know whether it's "ablution" or "and light".
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Thanks again, sister, for detailed answer. I am glad that now I may be able to high light the issue with language by example. The with Harkaat will only be interperated as ablution "an act of cleaning", a verb, as this is common understanding. It is written with Teskeel as . However, if we look up Lane's lexicon he is translating from authentic arabic sources as this word non-exsistent in classical Arabic, though found in many tradition. Instead a word with fetha did exsist, a inf. noun, meaning he was or became fair, beautiful, neat. Furthermore, the measure deviates from constant rule in this case. Hence, to imply that speakers of modren spoken language would understand Alkitab without proper teshkeel, seem far fetched. Yes, they will only understand the meanings of words that are prevalent at their time. In addition with out teskeel in Quran, there will be no way to get to correct meanings, specially when meanings can change so much by changing one sign of teskeel.
Lane's page
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000199.pdf
Furthermore, to say that ending harkaat have no meanings in or in any other word, is not correct either. Please pay attention to meaning "it was done", expressing an action, depending upon or proceeding from some one, resulting in a certain condition. Tenweens are vowels for nouns. Tenween of Fetha indicating objective, expressing state or condition. Tenween of Kesra, genitive or dependent, on the preceeding word. Tenween of Duma , nominative or accusative, in which form alone it can act as agent to a verb. However, when definate article is added to a noun it loses tenween and vowel becomes coressponding single vowel sign of Fetha, Kesra or Duma, while retaining corresponding meanings. However, verbs have single vowels signs, adding same meanings like examplified in .
Pleas consider above.
Badar
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The with Harkaat will only be interperated as ablution "an act of cleaning", a verb, as this is common understanding. It is written with Teskeel as .
- What do you mean by "interpreted as ablution"?
- Who writes it like this ?
This word does not even exist in the qur'aan so you cannot say that "harakaat" is essential or not to understand it. Moreover, the context will dictate what "harakat" to apply, not the other way round.
What's the missing letter in the word between brackets in each of these two sentences
My "sxn" is in 6th grade.
I love the "sxn"?Furthermore, to say that ending harkaat have no meanings in or in any other word, is not correct either. Please pay attention to meaning "it was done", expressing an action, depending upon or proceeding from some one, resulting in a certain condition. Tenweens are vowels for nouns. Tenween of Fetha indicating objective, expressing state or condition. Tenween of Kesra, genitive or dependent, on the preceeding word. Tenween of Duma , nominative or accusative, in which form alone it can act as agent to a verb. However, when definate article is added to a noun it loses tenween and vowel becomes coressponding single vowel sign of Fetha, Kesra or Duma, while retaining corresponding meanings. However, verbs have single vowels signs, adding same meanings like examplified in .
BadarWhat type of the following kinds of harakaat would you apply to your example? Please refer to my post when reponding to what I wrote. At least I would know what you misunderstood
There are two different kinds of "harakaat short vowels"
- Those which form part of the word for example the damma and sukuun on one and the two fat-ha on the other and . These vowels are respected in all spoken and written dialects because they affect the very meaning of the word. They are the counterparts of the short vowels in any other language (just as in sun and son).
- Grammatical vocalization, usually at the end of the word, and without which the meaning of the word is not affected, e.g and (the book, for all three words). They are normally neglected in the spoken language, except for a few words emphasized with tanween such as "shukran"; "3afwan"...
- There's, however, another kind which falls between the two the one linked to mrphology, and which,then, forms part of the word and is therefore not neglected in the spoken language such as (accuser) and (accused).
If you speak of grammatical "harakaat" and support your argument with examples from essential morphology harakaat, your conclusion is definitely invalid. I do not need harakaat to understand who the agent or patient in such a sentence
, and do not need a lesson in grammar to know that "muttaham" is dfferent from "muttahim".You cannot come up with an example showing that grammar tashkeel/harakaat is indispensible. This is a late invention that lacks originality, and just could not stick. Native speakers are the worst when it comes to applying grammar harakat (from my experience), and they still make themselves understood.
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Dear Sis, Let me clearify some of my expression mistake as well elaborate further on issues under discussion.
- What do you mean by "interpreted as ablution"?
- Who writes it like this ?
What I meant to say was that word "with out Harkaat" and not with Harkaat, will always be interperated by a modren Arabic speaker as act of ablution before prayer. I never said it occurs in Alkitab. All tradition books have written it as . In addition, please open the link to lane's lexicon and see what he is translating from authentic Arabic lexicons. Please confirm or refute him by confirming FROM the original referances, if you can access them. Furthermore, with out different Harkaat, there would have been no way for even natives NOW TO REALISE THAT THERE EXSIST TWO DIFFERENT WORDS WITH SAME THREE CONSONANTS AND COMPLETE DIFFERENT MEANINGS, JUST BASED ON DIFFERENCE IN HARKAATS. One of them did not even exsist in classic language, but used and performed atleast five times by most today. How do you explain this?
I do not need harakaat to understand who the agent or patient in such a sentence. Agreed for this purpose most native will not need any grammatical help in most languages. Although in most languages there are clues to indicate in a sentence. What do you feel now these markers are, if Harkaat of tenwen are not needed? Furthermore, for non speaker this will become a great issue and hence some markers are certainly needed, specially in language where most sentences consists of only few words, unlike English.
Badar
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Dear Sis, while I wait for your response to the previous post. Let me continue to bring issue with example from Alkitab. This word we have discussed before . I can not find this in Lane. Word that has meaning of guidance is with fetha . What do you feel is the explanation here? Thanks as always.
Badar
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What I meant to say was that word "with out Harkaat" and not with Harkaat, will always be interperated by a modren Arabic speaker as act of ablution before prayer. I never said it occurs in Alkitab. All tradition books have written it as .
Sorry for the belated response.
L.Lexicon does not differ from any CA dictionary in this entry. Nowhere in the link does LL says that waduu'; (with any harakaat) means anything other than ablution. Maybe your are confusing it with (wadu'a verb to be /become illuminated; and always with a final fatha, since it's a perfect/past tense). The spelling of both words is different. Also, one is a noun and the other is a verb, so no place for confusion and no need for tashkeel/harakaat/vocalization context rules.Dear Sis, while I wait for your response to the previous post. Let me continue to bring issue with example from Alkitab. This word we have discussed before . I can not find this in Lane. Word that has meaning of guidance is with fetha . What do you feel is the explanation here? Thanks as always.
I am surprised that you can't find it in LL. What root did you search (should be Haa Daal Yaa)?
You mean example from the qur'aan "Alkitab"? Please give me the verse where you ind this word . -
Dear Sis, thanks for reply. I know you are very busy. I thank you for just putting up with me. Please see at the bottom of link page above. Lane is pointing out with duma translated as act of ablution from Arab authority being unaware/denied as part of classic. Hoever, one with fetha translated as water, which will be a noun being approved.
As regards , referance from Alkitab is 22 and many others. However, when I look under Haa Dal Yaa in Lane, I don't find one with duma, except when he quotes from Alkitab. In quotes from Alkitab, he is pointing to word with duma. However, as root words from linguistic point of view, he cites the first Harkaat, on Haa is always fetha on this page. Here is link for your ease, where you will not find a word with a Duma on first Haa, with meanings suggestive of guidance, a course, conduct, method etc. It is always fetha. How do you explain this? Thanks
Badar
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000296.pdf
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This is what LL says
signifies The act of ablution, 41c. (~, I~)
(see 8 ); and , the water with which that
act is performed, or the water that is prepared
for that act, (., g, TA,) and is said to be also
an inf. n., or they are syn. words
of two different dialects, each sometimes used as
an inf. n. signifng the act, (though inf ns. of
the measure deviate from the constant rule,
TA,) and each sometimes as signifying the
water. (, , TA.) AA says, that signifies
the water with which one performs the
ablution above mentioned; " and he knew notand A'Obeyd disallows , and allows only
He just cites what other CA scholars say, and he clearly syas it's either or, and that each word is used for water or ablution
As for your other querry, he seems to start his entries with the simple perfect verb (form I), except when form I is not in use (so he is one who sees the perfect verb as the root). This is what I noticed in the two links you provided. That's why you see he starts with , which is the perfect (past) tense. Maybe you can investigate this with other roots.
I do not see where it quotes from Alkitaab. The first sentence is not a part of any verse, the second, , he gives its meaning as "alqur'aan"He is following, or he follows a
right direction.- The Kur-an -
AA says, that signifies
the water with which one performs the
ablution above mentioned; " and he knew notand A'Obeyd disallows , and allows only
Sis, how are you making your conclusion, that A'Obeyd disallows and allows only , as in the page from Lane both words are written with fetha in this quote from A'Obeyd, likely a printing error. But hard to decide which one is allowed and which one disallowed. Likely, when word and this method of ablution does not occur in Alkitab, unlikley to be suggested by prophet.
Badar
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Sis, how are you making your conclusion,
Context, Badr, context! I know there was a typo, but what A'Obeyd says can't be the same as what AA says. Moreover, Lane says both words are used for both meanings, therefore he has to provide evidence for each usage, not two evidence for one only.
Likely, when word and this method of ablution does not occur in Alkitab, unlikley to be suggested by prophet.
It does not matter what word is used for ablution. Since we understand what it meant, and what it meant is there in the qur'aan, what's the problem? The problem is the twisting of the method. I do ablution as instructed in the qur'aan, but still call it "". The hadith uses many words as they are in the qur'aan, but gives them a different meaning. Would this hadith's meaning be OK because it's using the same word as cited in the qur'aan? What word do you suggest to reflect the qur'aanic meaning for ablution (mind you, the qur'aan does not give a word, but detailed instructions of what to do before salaat)? Do you believe that ablution (whatever the arabic word for it might be) does not occur in the qur'aan?
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Thanks Sis. Do you have any means of verifying this Quote from original source. The reason it is important, because the word Wadu is not mentioned in Alkitab. Furthermore, if this word as a verb, as performed by people now five times/day did not exsist in CA. This fact would be clearly, one more proof that all those Hadith, about act of ablusion, relating to five times prayer and these prayers attributed to noble prophet are a later innovation. Quranic word for ablution you already know is in 56
Badar
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Thanks Sis. Do you have any means of verifying this Quote from original source. The reason it is important, because the word Wadu is not mentioned in Alkitab. Furthermore, if this word as a verb, as performed by people now five times/day did not exsist in CA. This fact would be clearly, one more proof that all those Hadith, about act of ablusion, relating to five times prayer and these prayers attributed to noble prophet are a later innovation. Quranic word for ablution you already know is in 56
Badar
What about ? It's half the method of "ablution".
Now I understand where you come from. There's already the word which is used for the washing after intercourse (death, menustration, child birth and becoming a Muslim according to traditional Islam). The question would be What's exactly is "ghusl", and is it mentioned in the qur'aan or how to perform it? This calls for a separate thread (I do not know if this has already been discussed). -
What about ? It's half the method of "ablution".
Now I understand where you come from. There's already the word which is used for the washing after intercourse (death, menustration, child birth and becoming a Muslim according to traditional Islam). The question would be What's exactly is "ghusl", and is it mentioned in the qur'aan or how to perform it? This calls for a separate thread (I do not know if this has already been discussed).and also do not go near/join Salat {enter mosque/congregation of Salat] in a state emanating from intercourse with wife/ejaculation-wet dream until you have taken bathe/purified yourselves with water, exception is for one in journey". .
"And if you people are in the state, resulting from intercourse with your wives , for that reason you purify yourselves".
For being in the state of , once it is said and second time . They are derived, respectively, from the Root " " and " ". The basic perception infolded in Root " " is to wash with water signifying the removing of dirt, or filth or the like thereof by making water to run over it resulting in cleansing/free from unpleasantness-impurity. And the basic perception infolded in the Root " " is also to make something clean or pure from dirt or filth. In both, the basic job done is to segregate oneself, one thing from the impurities clung to it/around it.
The distinction and peculiarity, however, of the two is that " " is restrictively used for corporeal cleaning/purification with water while Root " " has connotation both corporeal and ideological and can be attained both with the help of water and otherwise.As for what we perceive from "ablution" it is partial " " of some parts of the body speciically mentioned in the Quran which are normally exposed/uncovered and hence it is distinct from the " " which is ever in commonly known perception taking bath, cleaning/refreshing the entire body.
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and also do not go near/join Salat {enter mosque/congregation of Salat] in a state emanating from intercourse with wife/ejaculation-wet dream until you have taken bathe/purified yourselves with water, exception is for one in journey".
Thanks. This is the verse I meant when I said
There's already the word which is used for the washing after intercourse
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Sister what about word ? I have posted link to Lane's relevant page, all with fetha on Haa, for your review.
Badar
I already responded to this here
As for your other querry, he seems to start his entries with the simple perfect verb (form I), except when form I is not in use (so he is one who sees the perfect verb as the root). This is what I noticed in the two links you provided. That's why you see he starts with , which is the perfect (past) tense. Maybe you can investigate this with other roots.
I do not see where it quotes from Alkitaab. The first sentence is not a part of any verse, the second, , he gives its meaning as "alqur'aan"He is following, or he follows a
right direction.- The Kur-an -
Hi all, Samia, Bkanwar,
I am not a big supporter of code 19, BUT will it be possible, it is just an hypothesis that is written with instead of ALIF to support the counting of ALIF, LAM, MIM, just as it is in one surat (don't remember which one) with SIN and SAD (inverted).
Peace
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Hi all, Samia, Bkanwar,
I am not a big supporter of code 19, BUT will it be possible, it is just an hypothesis that is written with instead of ALIF to support the counting of ALIF, LAM, MIM, just as it is in one surat (don't remember which one) with SIN and SAD (inverted).
Peace
Salaam
You are talking about ( & ) in 2247 and 769 where one wrod is written in 2 different spellings (maybe it's not even the same word, no one researched that). But as far as "huda" is concerned, it's written this way althrough the Book. It's not the only word ending with alif maqsura.