Two women or two dependants

Tlepsh

O you who acknowledge, if you borrow debt for a specified period, then you shall record it. Let a scribe of justice record it for you. No scribe should refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be conscientious of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the borrower is mentally incapable, weak or cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men. If they are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them errs/forgets, then one can remind the other*. The witnesses should not decline if they are called, and you should not fail to record it no matter how small or large including the time of repayment. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no blame on you if you do not record it. Have witnesses/evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part. Be conscientious of God so that God teaches you; and God is aware of all things.

As you can see the scribe of justice shall record everything how small or large including the time of payment, so that no one will have doubts. In this case why one of the women shall err or forget? And what is she going to forget?

Wakas

peace,

As you can see the scribe of justice shall record everything how small or large including the time of payment, so that no one will have doubts. In this case why one of the women shall err or forget? And what is she going to forget?

By such line of reasoning, if it has indeed been written down by a scribe, then why require any witnesses, be it men/women/anyone? I would think the witnesses requirement is solidifying the process in terms of reliability. Also, the scibed document may become lost/damaged/altered, a person's copy disputed.

And as to what may be forgotten, any info related to the transaction, e.g. amount, period, terms, % fee/interest (if any), late penalties, other etc.

Tlepsh

peace,

By such line of reasoning, if it has indeed been written down by a scribe, then why require any witnesses, be it men/women/anyone? I would think the witnesses requirement is solidifying the process in terms of reliability. Also, the scibed document may become lost/damaged/altered, a person's copy disputed.

And as to what may be forgotten, any info related to the transaction, e.g. amount, period, terms, % fee/interest (if any), late penalties, other etc.

Peace Wakas,

Verse 2.282 and 2.283 are one complete passage. So we have to take them together. I will put down my understanding from these two verses in points and please correct me according to your understanding.

The transactions shall be mutually agreed upon.
When you transact with a loan towards a fixed period, you shall write it down ? and it should be recorded between the two - write with fairness. (Either the lender or barrower or a third one shall write it down)
The person who records must not refuse to write the way he was taught by God.
The barrower shall read he himself without overlooking any details.
In case the barrower is mentally incompetent or is incapable of reading and writing ? thus it should be read by his representative(s) with fairness ? and it should be witnessed by two witnesses from your men. (min rijalikum)
If two men are not available then one man and two wives from the persons you approved to be witnesses. If one of them forgets - the one may remind the other.
The witnesses must not refuse when they are called.
You shall not neglect any thing to write down either the minor or major details towards its fixed period. This is more just by God and it strengthens the purpose of witnessing (the contract written down) - and it is ideal as it will not raise any doubts.
If it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no blame on you if you do not record it.
And if you make a covenant (tabaya3tum) in trading you shall have evidence.
And never cause any hardship to the scribe or the witnesses, and if you do so then it is wickedness on part of you ? and observe God.
And God teaches you every single thing - He is very knowledgeable.
And if you are traveling or on assignments and you cannot get it recorded then place a deposit or bond as security after you trust each other.
The one who is trusted in this manner, he shall return the deposit or the bond when due, and be mindful of God, his Lord.
And do not conceal any evidence, and anyone who conceals anything will be harming his own self.
God is Aware of all you do.
These are the points that I understand from verses 2.282 and 2.283.

If the barrower is not mentally incompetent or is incapable of reading and writing there is no need for two witnesses. The contract itself or the deposit in 2.283 is the evidence.

My question is who are these two women witnesses?
If we are not able to find two witnesses from among our men is it easier to find it out of our women? (In my points above I have written it as ?wives? - may not be correct)

Wakas

peace,

I'm not sure why you changed it to "wives", but as I said, I have not seen any detailed analysis of the words in question.

If the barrower is not mentally incompetent or is incapable of reading and writing there is no need for two witnesses. The contract itself or the deposit in 2.283 is the evidence.

I am not sure if this can be concluded from the verse, unless I am missing something.

If we are not able to find two witnesses from among our men is it easier to find it out of our women?

Yes, in terms of probability.

Mazhar

Misconception Two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness

The absurdity is built in the statement. This seems to have been uttered by a person who did not know the functioning of justice system/civil as well criminal.

It is meaningless to suggest that a woman is half a man. The matter relates to a particular business transaction and refers to a particular situation where two men are not available for witnessing the deal.

Ordinarily women do not like visiting public and private places alone as they feel shy and embarrassed being alone female amongst few men. Two sisters were present and they explained freely to Musa but when one came to invite him to home she came feeling shy and reluctant, as explained in Alqasas 2823-25.

In the particular situation a woman not related to men who are party in the deal would not be interested to become a witness at a business place in the presence of four men (two dealing men, one Katib, writer of agreement, fourth witness).
But it has been made obligatory to become witness. Therefore it would have been against the human rights of a woman to compel her become a witness in a deal she is not interested/concerned in as it is against her Psyche. Therefore, two women are prescribed as witness.

In the Court witness is only one. The other is to facilitate/suggest her companion if she forgets/neglects something. It is the will and discretion of the other to accept or reject. The court cannot interfere otherwise the witness of both will become meaningless and void.

O you who say to have believed! When you people enter into a commercial deal of promissory nature for a period with specific terminating point in time for payment, then you must put it in writing and a scribe must amongst you write down in just manner;
and the scribe must not refuse to write down since Allah has taught him, therefore, he must write down and the party under liability should dictate remaining mindful/fearful of Allah and should not reduce anything of liability/obligation.
For reason of the indebted person being immature or is weak or is not capable to dictate , then let the guardian of his interests dictate it with equity;
and you let two men from among your men be witness , for reason of non availability, then any one man and two women, by mutual choice, be made witness;
so that if one gets perplexed/unmindful while recording witness the other may remind her . And when witnesses are asked to witness/testify the contract/in court they should not refuse. And you people do not neglect to reduce to writing your promissory commercial transaction for a specified term, whether it be big or small. Allah considers this more just for you, and for witness it is primary evidence and reduces the chances of suspicions; there is exception to this injunction that you may not reduce to writing the business/rotation-selling and buying of goods that you do daily on spot hand to hand; but in case of promissory commercial transactions you should make it witnessed. The scribe and the witnesses should not be harassed, if you do so, you shall be guilty of excess. And you should remain mindful of Allah; He gives you the knowledge of the right way for Allah has the knowledge of everything.

unknownuser

Peace Simple,

.......let there be one man and two women.
(Testimony of two men = testimony of one man + two women) in business transactions

In business or otherwise it is not just - such a thing, is it?

Throughout the quran check using burhans you will find Imratu either stands for- one woman or two women and never plurality of women how come?

To my keen understanding it actually should be one or a plurality and there arn't any two women indicative of Imraatu in the quran- i think.

example.

2823
And when he arrived at the watering (place) in Madyan, he found there a group of men watering (their flocks), and besides them he found two women who were keeping back (their flocks). He said "What is the matter with you?" They said "We cannot water (our flocks) until the shepherds take back (their flocks) And our father is a very old man."

Why sholdn't this say five men and two women? because it actualy says a group of men and some women
.....

this will solve the ambiguity created which says two women = one man.

God Bless.

Mazhar

In business or otherwise it is not just - such a thing, is it?

Throughout the quran check using burhans you will find Imratu either stands for- one woman or two women and never plurality of women how come?

To my keen understanding it actually should be one or a plurality and there arn't any two women indicative of Imraatu in the quran- i think.

example.

2823
And when he arrived at the watering (place) in Madyan, he found there a group of men watering (their flocks), and besides them he found two women who were keeping back (their flocks). He said "What is the matter with you?" They said "We cannot water (our flocks) until the shepherds take back (their flocks) And our father is a very old man."

Why sholdn't this say five men and two women? because it actualy says a group of men and some women
.....

this will solve the ambiguity created which says two women = one man.

God Bless.

2823

unknownuser

2823

I was conveying the similarity of words .......

2102
lmalakayni/ angels

2823
imraatayni/ women

if you get the drift.

peace

Tlepsh

In business or otherwise it is not just - such a thing, is it?

Throughout the quran check using burhans you will find Imratu either stands for- one woman or two women and never plurality of women how come?

To my keen understanding it actually should be one or a plurality and there arn't any two women indicative of Imraatu in the quran- i think.

example.

2823
And when he arrived at the watering (place) in Madyan, he found there a group of men watering (their flocks), and besides them he found two women who were keeping back (their flocks). He said "What is the matter with you?" They said "We cannot water (our flocks) until the shepherds take back (their flocks) And our father is a very old man."

Why sholdn't this say five men and two women? because it actualy says a group of men and some women
.....

this will solve the ambiguity created which says two women = one man.

God Bless.

Peace Simple,

(&#1577 Imra?a = one woman or wife (Imra?at Lot), Imra?at Imran), (Imra?at Nuh)
(&#1616 Imra?atan = two women
(&#1569=( &#1612 Nisaa? = niswa = women (more than two)

(&#1615 = (&#1613 Mar?u = Imri?u = person ( =2411, 5221, 7038, 7452, 8037( = 2102, 824, 7840, 8034)

Imra?a has no plural of its nature but nisaa? is the plural of imra?a.

The singular of nisaa? is nas? and it means ?that which comes later, that which stays behind, remains, or something that is delayed"

As Samia explained in her posts concerning different subjects the word Nisaa? is also used to mean ?the dependants? as opposed to Rijal/(those who seek, on foot, the breadwinners) Nisaa? clearly means ?the dependant? in verse 4127

So if nisaa? means ?women? and ?the dependants?
Then Imra?a as well may mean ?woman? and ?the dependant?
?The dependant? may be a male or a female.

Rijal means men and ?the breadwinners?
?The breadwinner? may be male or female.

So the witnesses in verse 2.282 are (One breadwinner + two dependants)

In 2823 It says ? he found there a group of people (nas) watering (their flocks)..
It doesn?t say a group of men. Nas includes males and females.

unknownuser

Salaams Tlepsh,

2282
???????... If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not men, then a man and women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind. ?????

I would still say ....aini, the ending of the words is for plurality rather then making something dual.

It gets rid of the two women = one man issue.

And the ....aini, ending of words for plurality is used with hundreds of other words in the quran.

peace

Roshan

Peace

Whilst I have not specifically looked at the Arabic, my view is that in countries prior to the advent of Islam (and in those ironically most 'Islamic' today), women were oppressed and had little experience in financial affairs.

The quote says that two women are needed only if one of them errs (and so otherwise the testimony of one women = testimony of one man), and this is the reason why women could be considered more likely to err. In a modern day Islamic country, this would almost be looked upon as being symbolic.

Roshan

Roshan

It gets rid of the two women = one man issue

Peace

I have a problem with your logic. You are seeking to eliminate a possible meaning based on your predetermined opinion. This is the wrong way to approach any issue in the Quran (the verses on the prohibition of same sex perversion is another area where people do the same).

However, as stated in the previous post this quote does not mean one man = two women, it means women are more likely to err in financial transactions.

Roshan

Tlepsh

It gets rid of the two women = one man issue.

The quote says that two women are needed only if one of them errs (and so otherwise the testimony of one women = testimony of one man), and this is the reason why women could be considered more likely to err. In a modern day Islamic country, this would almost be looked upon as being symbolic.

Peace Simple and Roshan,

In the beginning of verse 2.282 the addressee are ?mu?minun? male and female. The barrower can be a woman or man, the lender can be a woman or man, the scribe can be a woman or man, the witnesses who are rijal/breadwinners can be women or men, the witnesses who are nisaa?/(imra?atan)/(two dependents) can be males or females.

The dependants are those who depend others in their living. These can be boys and girls who are not mature yet. (?Two girls? or ?two boys? or? a girl and a boy?)
That?s why God says ??two dependants from whom you will accept their testimony?? and ?so that if one of them errs/forgets, then one can remind the other? This is not sad for rijal because any mature mu?min is qualified to be a witness. Mu?min means a mature person (male or female) who renders safety to others so she/he is qualified to be a witness.

unknownuser

Peace Simple and Roshan,

In the beginning of verse 2.282 the addressee are ?mu?minun? male and female. The barrower can be a woman or man, the lender can be a woman or man, the scribe can be a woman or man, the witnesses who are rijal/breadwinners can be women or men, the witnesses who are nisaa?/(imra?atan)/(two dependents) can be males or females.

The dependants are those who depend others in their living. These can be boys and girls who are not mature yet. (?Two girls? or ?two boys? or? a girl and a boy?)
That?s why God says ??two dependants from whom you will accept their testimony?? and ?so that if one of them errs/forgets, then one can remind the other? This is not sad for rijal because any mature mu?min is qualified to be a witness. Mu?min means a mature person (male or female) who renders safety to others so she/he is qualified to be a witness.

Mazhar said;

And if the contracting men, shrewd businessmen had not first erred how there could be an entuality of the woman recording her evidence in the court?

The erring is not by the witnesses at all, but by the one making the contract ?

The quran says;

If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate

So if he err?s then the witness/?s can remind him- as Mazhar said above.

And sorry your translations of the said ayah do make women look inferior then men, and are no way correct.

Man and women are equal especially with respect to mental capacity.

Has anybody here ever seen children being witnesses to transaction any where?

The ayah has nothing at all to do with dependants , but is talking about a not so competant person who may forget about the condition of the transaction and so the witnesses , men or women will be there to remind him or her.

peace