02:01-39
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Assalamo Alaikum,
Perhaps it may be more close to arabic words
This is that Book,
Some one is introducing a peculiar book to someone.
is used to refer, draw attention, indicate or introduce something or person to the addressee. A demonstrative pronoun indicates towards a thing and this reference diverts and focuses the attention of the addressee towards the pointed thing, giving that thing a peculiarity/individuality. Any thing that is focused upon, comes into the vision. And any thing which is in the reach of the vision and has since been perceived is no more distant irrespective of its distance from the addressee. Thus demonstrative pronoun literally means "This is that book....."Thus literally means introducing a particular/peculiar book, "This is that book, here is that book" and then peculiarity/individuality/news/predicate is told ;"inside of whom/which there is no suspicious/conjectural/whimsical/un-certain/perplexing/disconcerting/ illusory matter/statement".
has been used only once in the Grand Quran, in the beginning to introduce it to the humanity.
And then after narrating the peculiar feature of the Grand Quran has been used to tell this"This Book is The Guidance of Allah, He guides with this Book whoever wishes/desires guidance"
Everybody recieves the kitaab, especially those who are not mutaqeen so they may be mutaqeen.
How about those people living in the far regions who have never recieved the quran and those who lived thousends of years ago, you think they didn't recieve the kitaab to follow, its not a paper back book, although saying that there are lessons in the paper back quran for everybody whether they be mutaqeen or not.check what ilm is - in lanes Br.
peace
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Everybody recieves the kitaab, especially those who are not mutaqeen so they may be mutaqeen.
How about those people living in the far regions who have never recieved the quran and those who lived thousends of years ago, you think they didn't recieve the kitaab to follow, its not a paper back book, although saying that there are lessons in the paper back quran for everybody whether they be mutaqeen or not.check what ilm is - in lanes Br.
{Refer 1338.
A book imparts knowledge which is guidance to everyone. But the Book leads to the destination acting as Guide only to those who have a certain/prerequisite qualification/ability to reach that point. I read medical books and I can know medical science much better than many practicing doctors, but this reading of the book cannot make me a person recognized by the society as doctor.
Life is in time and space. One needs guidance at every moment and regarding everything one is confronted in life. Quran serves as Guide to those who endeavor persistently to reach the destination for which they have to remain mindful and heedful all the time avoiding unrestrained conduct.We are not concerned about those whom Quran has not reached. The Messenger said that he admonishes with Quran the one whom Quran reached.
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{Refer 1338.
A book imparts knowledge which is guidance to everyone. But the Book leads to the destination acting as Guide only to those who have a certain/prerequisite qualification/ability to reach that point. I read medical books and I can know medical science much better than many practicing doctors,
but this reading of the book cannot make me a person recognized by the society as doctor.
the kitaab is for each of us , to make us all righteous though whether we be goat herders yes
Life is in time and space. One needs guidance at every moment and regarding everything one is confronted in life.
evrybody needs guidance though, not just some of Gods people, don't you think.
Quran serves as Guide to those who endeavor persistently to reach the destination for which they have to remain mindful and heedful all the time avoiding unrestrained conduct.
how true, but the kitaab is there for all people, so that they may all reach the desired destination and just a select few who receive the quran.
We are not concerned about those whom Quran has not reached.
we may not be concerned though God is concerned about every corner of human kind- as they are all his children.
The Messenger said that he admonishes with Quran the one whom Quran reached.
God Bless All.
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.01.A.htm
Google says Oops! This link appears broken!
Assalamo Alaikum,
Perhaps it may be more close to arabic words
This is that Book,
The English translation is a sentence, whereas the Arabic is a phrase. The translation is That book.
Also, there's a spelling mistake not (no alif ) -
Thanks Sister,
Virus got uploaded. They are cleaning it, connection will be restored in few hours.
Arabic word is not a "word" but a phrase in itself. Therefore that phrase needs to be translated with the words which may nearly convey the complete perception infolded therein. Do you endorse that mere "that" could convey the perception of "Za'lika".
http//www.ahadees.com/images/quran/arabic/2_2.gif
I tried to type exactly as it appears in Arabic Quran, but it started appearing like alif. I will try to find some method. Transliterian may also look different, but the speaking dictionary pronounces it like the Arabic sound.
Please also advise further, later when you could get the link. Thanks. -
Arabic word is not a "word" but a phrase in itself. Therefore that phrase needs to be translated with the words which may nearly convey the complete perception infolded therein. Do you endorse that mere "that" could convey the perception of "Za'lika".
I do not understand why Arabic word is a phrase in itself? Does this mean we do not have "words"?
The problem arises when you continue with the translation of the whole verse.
It should be
(1) That book, not doubt, has guidance in it for the pious
or
(2) There's no doubt in that book, it's guidance for the pious
The reason for the two different translations is how where you pause after "raib" >> translation (1); after "feehi" >> translation (2).I am waiting for the link to be clear.
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The concept of phrase and not the word is interesting. Of course there has to be words in every language. But it seems that in Qur'anic script, words have been joined together with the help of Gezm and other such signs, subsequently described by Grammar writers and Lexicons writers. With the help of Gezm etc, multiple words/concepts consisting of one or more letters, seemed to have been joined together, giving a morphological appearance of one word, when in reality they may be representing compound words written together in a joined fashion, hence a full phrase in translation of each such words.
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But it seems that in Qur'anic script, words have been joined together with the help of Gezm and other such signs, subsequently described by Grammar writers and Lexicons writers.
Salaam kn
I do not know what you mean by "jezm" as a factor in joining words to form a phrase. Neither am I opposed, of course, to the concept of a phrase, or even a sentence, being zipped in a word, but this is mainly due to the possibility of suffixing/prefixing pronouns, prepositions, definite articles to nouns/verbs; as well as the different forms a verb can take when conjugated. I do not know of words suffixed/prefixed to another word, whether this word is a noun or a verb.
Can you please explain this "jezm" with examples and what grammar and lexicon writers said about it? -
Dear Sister and Brothers
I have been trying to follow the concepts of grammar with the help of translations of Arabic grammar work by William Wright, E H Palmer and reviewing the Lannes lexicon.
If we follow the rules of grammar, as I understood, from these translations of Arab scholars and as translated by English translators like William Wright and Lexicon as translated by Edward Lane, and look at the meanings using "Gezm" as indicating break off points and a joining mark for two separate words, (words joined together, as it seem like a script writing technique indicated with a Gezm ,that these were actually two separate words, but written joined together)Following attempt at translation, using above technique may serve as an example.
AL= The
Ham= Decree
Do= for the vast/entire land
Lillahi= from Rab
Rabul= creator of
Alamiin= of those who can understand ( and thus comprehend and follow this decree from the Rab) ( This does not reflect that he is not the creator of other things, but merely indicates one of his creations)Does it mean that the opening statement of Gods book is a statement about the content of the book and for whom it is intended, rather than a praise for himself?
The above breakdown of the words is using the technique of writing and word joining explained in the above referenced books.
I feel sister, that you are very knowledgeable and will be able to look at these refernces for all of us and let us know if I am understanding it correctly.
Praying Rab for his guidance and true understanding of his message. -
Respected Sister and all others. I know most on this forum are trying to understand the divine message with out intermediaries. So am I. I am just a very humble student of Alkitab via trying to understand language it was revealed in. I am glad "kn" has revived the issue that I brought up some time ago. Dear sister and all other respected readers. I would very humbly request you to please read and re-read relavant pages of Lane and W. Wright's grammar book and share your understanding on this issue. I am posting links again here.
Badar
Original discussion on the issue
http//www.ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1233&highlight=jezm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596746.0
Relavant page from Lane
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf
Page from Wright go to pages 14/166, for discussion about jezm.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf
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I do not understand why Arabic word is a phrase in itself? Does this mean we do not have "words"?
The problem arises when you continue with the translation of the whole verse.
It should be
(1) That book, not doubt, has guidance in it for the pious
or
(2) There's no doubt in that book, it's guidance for the pious
The reason for the two different translations is how where you pause after "raib" >> translation (1); after "feehi" >> translation (2).I am waiting for the link to be clear.
Assalamo Alaikum Sisiter,
Link is restored.
How English word "that" could be a proper and complete substitute of Za'lika, since in it there is simultaneously one first person and a second person? With English word "that" how would we care for "ka" in Za'lika?
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Salaam kn and Anwar
I will reply to you both in one post, because both of you speak with the same tongue, which I find very bizarre, as it is not even supported by the many links you bring. I read the Grammar by Wright, and "jezm" is shown on part of page three under "other orthographic signs" where the first is gezm and the second is shadda/tashdeed. Nothing of what you say is there (I already know). To prove me wrong, please copy and paste what you think/are sure is about "gezm being a break-off point of two words".
As for the the re-translation of chapter 1 offered by kn is it your own attempt or some scholar's? Would you please show me where in Arabic there's a word as " " or "", whatever it means? Or " "?
And to both of your Please do not post the same posts in different thread. I find it interesting that both of you are posting almost the same posts one after the other (well, apart from a question by herbman in the thread about Aidid)http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598058.msg196735#msg196735
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Dear Sister
I have been following your discussion very very closely with brother Badar, regarding the rules of grammar on this site as well as Brother Badars discussion on ourbeacon forum. I therefore decided to buy all these grammar books and started looking at these links via internet also. It was very fascinating. Everytime, I see some discussion on these rules, I have been trying to look it up in William Wright, EH Palmer and Edward Lanes. I have used the links provided by Badar on this site for refernce and to understand the concept of gezm as well, and have tried to apply them and look it up in all three books. The translation I attempted was based on one of the discussions on these forums and is not from a translation book. I looked up at the meanings of Ham, Do and other words, breaking them based on gezm concept that I understood from these books, and was amazed to find them in Lanes as well.
I will try to put the link ( If I can)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000271.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000094.pdf
Please help me if I am understanding it correct.
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Thanks for the links.
This is not " ", but "" of root " ". The double meem shows when the perfect verb is conjugated to the self, which is the rule for what we call "doubled verb". It's a very much used kind of verb, and you find its derivative in the qur'aanic expression " very hot fire", and also in the derivative we use for fever . So no final jezm, but a jezm on a meem followed by another meem with fatha. Maybe the confusion comes from the entry which is void of shadda, simply because the entries are not vocalized.As for the link on "jazama/jazm ", yes the word/verb means to be decisive, final. Because of this meaning, the sukuun (a sign) is called jezm, because it cuts the letter from any link with the following letter, or from tanween. Just like "damma" where the actual verb Damma means to join, or a hug, and where you have to join the two lips to pronounce it; or fatha which means "an opening", and that's what you do with the mouth when pronouncing it; and also for "kasr " when you decline the lips, and their staright line
is "broken", etc..
You have to differentiate between a real word and a name given for a sign for some reason. -
I do not understand why Arabic word is a phrase in itself? Does this mean we do not have "words"?
The problem arises when you continue with the translation of the whole verse.
It should be
(1) That book, not doubt, has guidance in it for the pious
or
(2) There's no doubt in that book, it's guidance for the pious
The reason for the two different translations is how where you pause after "raib" >> translation (1); after "feehi" >> translation (2).I am waiting for the link to be clear.
Sister,
I understand that the majority of Arabic words cannot be translated with one English word if one intends to convey the complete perception contained in that Arabic word. Translation means to convey the perception of the words, phrases, and sentence of one language in another language, which in length and volume will never be equal to the original text.
To describe this I got the term of ?phrase? from your post,
The English translation is a sentence, whereas the Arabic is a phrase.
I feel that understanding and then translating becomes rather vivid and easier when we continue with the whole verse.
?La Raiba?, perhaps neither means ?Not/no doubt? since it is not ?La Shakk?, and in English it conveys emphasis when used in between a statement for conveying the belief/understanding of certainty about the thing being stated. On the contrary Raib is always ?in? something, ?la raiba fehi? or one is engulfed in Raib ?fi raibin?.
?La raiba? alone is not a predicate. With reference to the predicate is .
Only such book can act as guide in time and space which is void of all sorts of conjectural content. The aforesaid book having this particular characteristic is declared , a guide for those who conduct in a cautious, heedful, and mindful manner. is active participle, the objective of whom in life is to remain cautious and not to indulge in an unrestrained behaviour, such people need a guide who should tell them at every mile stone which way they have to keep journeying.
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Assalamo Alaikum Sisiter,
Link is restored.
How English word "that" could be a proper and complete substitute of Za'lika, since in it there is simultaneously one first person and a second person? With English word "that" how would we care for "ka" in Za'lika?
Sorry just saw this post
I am not sure if I understood you. Yes, Arabic cares for number and gender, but whether it was "tilk (fem sing/non human plural)", "ulaa'ika (plural fem and masc)"or thaalika sing", they will all be translated as that or those (English cares for the sing and plural only). I can't translate an isolates "that" except generally, unless I know what noun follows it.
What do you mean by the "ka" in "zaalika"? What would it be without "ka"? -
Sister,
I understand that the majority of Arabic words cannot be translated with one English word if one intends to convey the complete perception contained in that Arabic word. Translation means to convey the perception of the words, phrases, and sentence of one language in another language, which in length and volume will never be equal to the original text.
This applies to all languages whether we translate into them or from them.
La Raiba, perhaps neither means Not/no doubt since it is not La Shakk, and in English it conveys emphasis when used in between a statement for conveying the belief/understanding of certainty about the thing being stated. On the contrary Raib is always in something, la raiba fehi or one is engulfed in Raib fi raibin.
La raiba alone is not a predicate. With reference to the predicate is .
The difference between "raib" and "shakk" is the difference between "doubt" and "suspicion". "la raib" can be used just as "no doubt" in English. It does not have to always be a predicate. This is why I suggested both translations.
There's a slight difference between "shakk" and "raib"; The first presumes confusion between two contradicting facts, and the other presumes malignity in the one matter. Sometimes they can be used alternatively, but in cases you can't according to the context. -
The difference between "raib" and "shakk" is the difference between "doubt" and "suspicion". "la raib" can be used just as "no doubt" in English. It does not have to always be a predicate. This is why I suggested both translations.
There's a slight difference between "shakk" and "raib"; The first presumes confusion between two contradicting facts, and the other presumes malignity in the one matter. Sometimes they can be used alternatively, but in cases you can't according to the context.Well said. It clarifies that "shakk" and "raib" are distinct from each other. When two things are distinct from each other they cannot be used interchangeably. In the verse under study "lar raiba fehi" is the predicate.
Shakk is something that could create a state reflected by the word "raib" and not vice versa. In shakk there may not be feeling of irritation,agitation, uneasiness of mind. In English when we say "there is no doubt in it", the words "in it" mean about/regarding the statement made and not what Arabic word "fi" denotes. -
Dear Brother and Sister, why do you believe that "raib", in this particular verse is used for confusion. According to lexicon it also means "an affair or bussiness". Could it not mean as
This
for you, when used combined together as phrase, doesn't convey meaning of just "this", but something which is, was and will be. Hence, "this is for you an eternally bound book of the law". ( )= Not just a book, but a bound book of law. . "In which no affair or bussiness has been left out".
Badar