Hajj are months well known!!
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Peace Rami,
2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
Known to whom?? It seems the people who followed Mohammed had knowledge of the Hajj and months before the Quran! Is the Quran an amendment to some other book?
These people seem to know when Ramadan falls and the Hajj was going before the Quran! Does this have a relation to Millat Ibrahim? Why isn't Millat Ibrahim found in the previous revelations?Yes, the full moons of the "hagg"/feast were known by the people of the book
Psa 813 (814) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast (hagg).
In fact, their biggest feast/"hagg", the "hagg HaSukut", falls on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. This matches with the timing for the feast that we are told about in the great reading
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Yes, the full moons of the "hagg"/feast were known by the people of the book
Psa 813 (814) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast (hagg).
Ok, this will bring up some complications. Mohammed was sent primarily to the Gentiles and not the people of the book. Second, the feasts start in the fifteenth of the month. This means the month should start with the crescent moon which goes through phases and return as a crescent again. If we put the crescent at the beginning of the months, the full moons become the fifteenth.
In fact, their biggest feast/"hagg", the "hagg HaSukut", falls on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice.
The moons in the hebrew calendar is not oriented by the summer solstice but by the greeness of the barley(abib) in the land of Israel. The first new moon after the green barley is the first month and we count the months from there. I know it won't make a difference but the summer solstice is more difficult to pinpoint.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace Rami,
Ok, this will bring up some complications. Mohammed was sent primarily to the Gentiles and not the people of the book. Second, the feasts start in the fifteenth of the month. This means the month should start with the crescent moon which goes through phases and return as a crescent again. If we put the crescent at the beginning of the months, the full moons become the fifteenth.
No he wasn't sent to the Gentiles. 278 makes it clear that some of the children of Israel were "ummiyun", which means common illiterate people (as opposed to "people of the booK", which implies religious/political elite who knew the language of prestige of the previous books).
Also, this has nothing to do with calendars and months. It has to do with the timing of the feast REGARDLESS of any calendar. Thus, it is solely based on easily witnessable cosmic phenomenon. The full moon is the easiest cosmic phenonmenon to witness in the night sky.
The moons in the hebrew calendar is not oriented by the summer solstice but by the greeness of the barley(abib) in the land of Israel. The first new moon after the green barley is the first month and we count the months from there. I know it won't make a difference but the summer solstice is more difficult to pinpoint.
Every ancient culture knew exactly when the summer solstice occurred so it is not difficult at all.
Peace,
Ayman
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Agreed with Bro Ayman..
See how often Quran verses starts with
Hear Ye Children Of Israel!
Hear Ye People of the book!
Hear Ye Forgetful Beings! (Ya Ayuhan-Nas)
Hear Ye People Of Faith!And i havent found these in the Quran
Hear Ye People Of Arabs!Although I do find many references about The Arabs in the Quran.. (most of them are not good)
One of them shown as my footer below.. -
Agreed with Bro Ayman..
See how often Quran verses starts with
Hear Ye Children Of Israel!
Hear Ye People of the book!
Hear Ye Forgetful Beings! (Ya Ayuhan-Nas)
Hear Ye People Of Faith!And i havent found these in the Quran
Hear Ye People Of Arabs!Although I do find many references about The Arabs in the Quran.. (most of them are not good)
One of them shown as my footer below..Peace,
This will simply make Mohammed and the Qurayesh tribe 'ummy' Israelites and Mecca a long lost Jewish city. I thought that too. It is very weird that the Torah and the Gospel are a guidance for the people but at the same time the prophets who brought these teachings were only sent to the Israelites. If 'AlNas'refer to the Israelites, what about the rest of the nations?
There is no such thing as Arabs and Hebrews. Arabic is simply advanced hebrew. Both languages came from Akkadian. I believe that the Book of Moses was in Akkadian and Sargon the Great was Firaon in the Quran. Thats why Moses had a Sumerian with him as Sargon conquered the sumerian cities. Note that God taught by the pen and the ancients Sumerians and Akkadian wrote in cuneiform and that the myth of the flood is also found in Sumerian mythology.
Peace,
Rami
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rami-This will simply make Mohammed and the Qurayesh tribe 'ummy' Israelites and Mecca a long lost Jewish city. I thought that too. It is very weird that the Torah and the Gospel are a guidance for the people but at the same time the prophets who brought these teachings were only sent to the Israelites. If 'AlNas' refer to the Israelites, what about the rest of the nations?
- The term "bani israel" likely denotes a people rather than any specific location. It is also likely that there exists a land called "israel" no more than there exists a land called "adam" (wonder if shabbir has ever given this a try).
Jesus was sent to bani israel (349), while muhammad was sent to all mankind (715. Muhammad was an ummiy (7157), from the ummiyeen (622), while the people of the book were not (375).
God has chastised the rejectors for their vain disputation (365) & disbelief (397), & (fore)warned the believers to not heed the rejectors (3100).
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace Ayman,
No he wasn't sent to the Gentiles. 278 makes it clear that some of the children of Israel were "ummiyun", which means common illiterate people (as opposed to "people of the booK", which implies religious/political elite who knew the language of prestige of the previous books).
So, you're saying that Muhammad was sent to the Jews, not the Gentiles? And you're claiming that the word "ummi" in the Qur'aan is referring to an illiterate person, one who can't read or write? Or is it a reference to someone who can't read or write in the Hebrew or Aramaic languages?
Also, this has nothing to do with calendars and months. It has to do with the timing of the feast REGARDLESS of any calendar. Thus, it is solely based on easily witnessable cosmic phenomenon. The full moon is the easiest cosmic phenonmenon to witness in the night sky.
This seems fairly logical... The problem with this, however, is the basis of Jewish months. All of their months, including timings of their feasts and fastings, were based on the occurrance of the NEW MOON, not the full moon. Their other observances were based on the appearance of the CRESCENT MOON, again not the full moon. These were used as calculatory devices in all of their events. I haven't seen any evidence of these being based around the summer solstice, even though the greenness of the vegetation was sometimes used as a reference.
Peace,
Ahmad
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rami-This will simply make Mohammed and the Qurayesh tribe 'ummy' Israelites and Mecca a long lost Jewish city.
- I remarked previously that it is likely that there exists no physical location called "israel". Even more improbable is a land called "israel" belonging to the "jews". This is mere fancy of a people gone astray.
If v go by genesis 3228; it was jacob who was rechristened "israel"; & jacob existed well before moses. The identification of israelites as jews is therefore invalid.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace Ahmad,
So, you're saying that Muhammad was sent to the Jews, not the Gentiles? And you're claiming that the word "ummi" in the Qur'aan is referring to an illiterate person, one who can't read or write? Or is it a reference to someone who can't read or write in the Hebrew or Aramaic languages?
It is clear from 278 that the word "ummi" doesn't mean "Gentile". It is also clear from 278 that it doesn't mean "someone who can't read or write". 278 specifies the definition of "ummiyin" as "those who don't know the book and just recite without understanding it". So the key here is that they don't understand the language of the book. This is the basic definition of "ummiyin" and this is why it is in contrast to the people of the book (who understand the language of the book). Since the prophet understood Arabic then he was certainly not "ummi" as far as Arabic goes. There are also examples of people who can read or write a language without understanding it. So those would still be considered "ummi". For example, I can read Urdu and write it because it uses the Arabic script but I don't understand it. So I am an "ummi" in Urdu despite being able to read and write it.
The languages of the previous books were Hebrew and Aramaic. So the "ummiyin" in contrast of the people of the book are the common people who couldn't understand those religious languages of prestige.
This seems fairly logical... The problem with this, however, is the basis of Jewish months. All of their months, including timings of their feasts and fastings, were based on the occurrance of the NEW MOON, not the full moon. Their other observances were based on the appearance of the CRESCENT MOON, again not the full moon. These were used as calculatory devices in all of their events. I haven't seen any evidence of these being based around the summer solstice, even though the greenness of the vegetation was sometimes used as a reference.
This is not the case. The biggest feast of the Jews, "hagg" Sukkot occurs on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice, which precisely coincides with the last of the inviolable full-moons.
Peace,
Ayman
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rami-2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
Known to whom?? It seems the people who followed Mohammed had knowledge of the Hajj and months before the Quran! Is the Quran an amendment to some other book?
These people seem to know when Ramadan falls and the Hajj was going before the Quran! Does this have a relation to Millat Ibrahim? Why isn't Millat Ibrahim found in the previous revelations?- The translation u have provided says "The Pilgrimage months are made known;" my personal understanding is that these are months "ascertained". Ascertained by whom & when would be interesting questions.
However, it is unlikely that the calf-worshippers of bible knew much about the pratice of abraham, & they have been chastised for speaking about the ways of abraham despite their lack. For them "chag" was a festival (pilgrimage festival, sacrifice), an occasion of merry-making -- armed with a conductor & their music tools, they would shriek & shout with unbridled enthusiasm. The bible well desrcibes their pagan ritual of the full moon
Psalms
811 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
812 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
813 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
And in their signature move, they attribue this pagan ritual to God.
814 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.
Needless to say, this pagan festival of full moon has no place in the quraan. It might be of interest that in hebrew "chodesh" (new moon) & "month" are often interchangeable, which is also the case for the arabic "shahr".
The idolaters had enacted a similar scene when they had taken up the golden calf for worship
3217 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
3218 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
3219 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
Generation after generation have they frustrated their god, to the present generation
329 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people
Also, from Jeremiah
3230 For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith the LORD.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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A remark -- The understanding that shahr = full moon, listed at studyquran.org, is misleading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598094.0
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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The underived meaning of shahr appears to be "announce/make public". From this, v have the new moon, which is the announcing of the moon after the moonless night. Also, since the new moon marks the the completion of a cycle, "shahr" takes the meaning of a month, which is its common application in arabic.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace Herbman,
shahr in common arabic language is not full moon BUT new moon!
No, "shahr" doesn't mean "new-moon". This is a false made up meaning based on sectarian preconceptions trying to fit the meaning into their new-moon based calendar. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the word "shahr" means
"The moon when it is obvious and nearly full"
Here is the relevant entry copied and pasted from Lisan Al-3arab
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basically you see something like that  
You are exactly right. This non-obvious and almost invisible new-moon cannot be what is talked about by Classical Arabic dictionaries when they say "The moon when it is obvious and nearly full", but it is definitely this O )
Peace,
Ayman
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The text from lisaan la-arab can be roughly read as follows
the moon, named in that it appears & is visible/apparent;
The above deontes the first visible moon, or the new moon.
& (it is) said when visible/apparent & is near to being complete.
The above denotes the moon when it is near to being full. This rules out the invention of "full moon".
As v can see, new moon is included in ibn manzurs work, while full moon has been left out. The same is the observation of lane, who has drawn mainly from taj alarus & lisaan alarab. Check out the following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598094.0
Moreover, the word for full moon in lisaan alarab & lanes is b-d-r
From lisaan alarab
The usage of badr as against shahr is apparent.
I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel) regarding hajj in islaam & christianty a while back, & when I asked him proof for his claim, he came up with something like lisaan alarab says it is moon when nearly full (which I have already discussed). On further probing, he referred me to this website & to studyquran.org. I have gone throught this in the thread I referenced above.
Interestingly, ibn manzur was a sunni scholar, which made the appeal by crone's puppy to lisaan alarab a source of much entertainment. Inventions aside, the application of the word shahr, obtained from old south arabic & qatabanian, shows the following possibilities
1.announce/proclaim (likely underived)
Relevant derivatives
- new moon
3.first day of the month
4.month
I always make it a point to ask non-muslims for proof; & they never come up with anything, as demonstrated by that christian who could not make out "nearly full" from "full".
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb ala'aalmaeen
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& (it is) said when visible/apparent & is near to being complete.
The above denotes the moon when it is near to being full. This rules out the invention of "full moon".
As v can see, ?new moon? is included in ibn manzur?s work, while ?full moon? has been left out. The same is the observation of lane, who has drawn mainly from taj alarus & lisaan alarab. Check out the following thread
In fact, Taj al3aruus maintains (moon) and attributes (new moon ) to Ibnu-l-Atheer (and explains what this would mean in "to fast the shahr" by saying He meant the beginnng and the end (I think he wanted to accommodate both waxing and weaning crescents). But he (e.i T Al arous) continues And the shahr is the moon for its being public/known and for being evident.
This is what Taj al- 3aruus says under sheen haa raa
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The main thing is that it's so called shahr for it being publicly known/observed. This negates crescent and badr (which, according to lexicons, is so called because it appears before sunset badara to rush, hurry, set out without delay).Language is logic. I wonder why a crescent would be called "shahr" when it's neither visible nor obvious. This is shown from the timing of "Ramadan" every year no agreement at all. So how is it "obvious" and "publicly known"?
Moreover, the quraan already mentioned hilaal in the plural (ahilla), so the word is there, and is not related to fasting but to hajj.I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel)
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which made the appeal by crone's puppy to lisaan alarabPlease explain the underlined phrases.
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samia-
First off Do u understand that "nearly full" & "full" are mutually exclusive concepts? It's a very basic thingy, & I don't expect other than a "yes" for an answer. -)
-In fact, Taj al3aruus maintains (moon) and attributes (new moon ) to Ibnu-l-Atheer (and explains what this would mean in "to fast the shahr" by saying He meant the beginnng and the end (I think he wanted to accommodate both waxing and weaning crescents). But he (e.i T Al arous) continues And the shahr is the moon for its being public/known and for being evident.
Not that I trust what u write, but it is doesn't make a difference hereabout. Read & absorb this, before replying
Lisaan alarab is a thirteenth century work, & lane's lexicon is an nineteenth century work. In between the two u have taj alarus, which is an eighteenth century work.
The fact remains that while they have included "new moon" as a possible meaning, they have excluded "full moon". (Refer to my "first off" question). Moreover, badr is the word for "full moon". Ergo, among shahr's possible derivatives "new moon" is included, & "full moon" is excluded.
As for the the word "shahr" & antiquity of shahr as "new moon," there is enough evidence in old south arabic & qatabanian, like I have already remarked. Please do some reading rather than conjecturing.
-Please explain the underlined phrases.
thegod - I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel) regarding hajj in islaam & christianty a while back, & when I asked him proof for his claim, he came up with something like lisaan alarab says it is moon when nearly full (which I have already discussed). On further probing, he referred me to this website & to studyquran.org. I have gone throught this in the thread I referenced above.
I believe u were present at that thread, along with irrelevant & misleading comments.
Are u sensitive to the description "a sad non-muslim puppy from crone's stable"? If no, why did u underline it?
A remark -- Please produce evidence for "shahr" = full moon, rather than empty rhetoric.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen