The quraan & the mishnah
-
bigmo-Righteousness does not consist in whether you turn your faces towards the east or the west; what is righteous is to believe in Allah and the last day, and the angels, and the Book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and in times of war. Such as do so are people of truth. Such are the Allah-fearing. (Al-Baqara, 177)
Mishnah 5
If one was riding a donkey, he should dismount from it .
If he is unable to dismount, he should turn his face .
And if he is unable to turn his face,
he should focus his heart toward the Holy of Holies .Mishnah 4
Rabbi Eliezer says
One who makes his prayer "set" ,
his prayer does not constitute "pleading" .2142 The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Can the fool be helped? -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
-
bigmo-Righteousness does not consist in whether you turn your faces towards the east or the west; what is righteous is to believe in Allah and the last day, and the angels, and the Book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and in times of war. Such as do so are people of truth. Such are the Allah-fearing. (Al-Baqara, 177)
Can the fool be helped? -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
There is a firm Sunni mindset still. I am not making an opinion, I am stating the verse of the Koran that basically says we should not get obsesses with rituals the way the Pharisees have and forget the intention of faith. I would not take my religion from the Mishna or any other Talmudic traditions. They are a Wahhabi like faith. But you are welcome to do so. I am not a nitty gritty person I don't see the purpose. The verse is clear about what are the things that constitute righteousness. The things that are difficult and revealing of your character and faith are what constitutes your true faith.
3.92 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well.
-
In reply to the fools' observation that the muslims had changed their direction, God says that to Him are the two directions (east & west). It is also clarified that facing the east or the west in itself does not constitute righteousness.
This is exactly what the mishnah states -- that u have to turn ur heart before u turn ur face. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
-
Peace,
The Mishna and the Qur'aan are very similar when it comes down to many practices and beliefs, especially revolving around Judaism and Islaam. This is one of the many reasons why the Mishna is considered, even by many Muslims, as being the actual "Oral Torah" from G-d. As you know, these details are not provided at all in the Hebrew Bible, yet they coincide with the Qur'aan very accurately. Therefore, the Qur'aan also confirms the Mishna ("Oral Torah", not just the Tanakh...
Peace,
Ahmad
-
The significance of bayt of God & it's centrality can be found even in the bible, & the historicity of the two qiblas is not left unattested to,either. What I found interesting here is the similarity, if not "identicality", of the finer points of the respective prayers.
Then, yes, there exists a parallel between the quraanic & judaic beliefs & practices (an interesting case study would be the development of progressive judaism). The christians, on the other hand, believe that jesus freed them from cumbersome obligations, & prefer to flout(?) their own prophets. While they hold themselves freed of the law, personal suffering is an important precept unto them, exemplified & immortalised by jesus' taking up of the cross.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
-
The significance of bayt of God & it's centrality can be found even in the bible, & the historicity of the two qiblas is not left unattested to,either. What I found interesting here is the similarity, if not "identicality", of the finer points of the respective prayers.
Then, yes, there exists a parallel between the quraanic & judaic beliefs & practices (an interesting case study would be the development of progressive judaism). The christians, on the other hand, believe that jesus freed them from cumbersome obligations, & prefer to flout(?) their own prophets. While they hold themselves freed of the law, personal suffering is an important precept unto them, exemplified & immortalised by jesus' taking up of the cross.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come. Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAlso in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288The Koran then says
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.
http//www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
hmm
-
bigmo-Also in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.- That talmudic ruling is regarding payment of wages, while the quraanic verse seems to be talking about a different subject; still, ur point is taken. But I don't see the specific relevance of ur post. Are u saying that 2239 & 4101 should be abandoned because of a similarity found in the mishnah? Or that v should reinterpret them because of the similarity?
A remark regarding for a quraanic verse (375) u posted -- where the translation reads "ignorant (Pagans)," the arabic word is "ummiyyeen". In 622 muhammad is described as being from the "ummiyyeen," & in 7157 he is called the "ummiy" prophet. The translation of 375 is evidently incorrect. Also, the verse clearly shows that the people of the book are not ummiyyeen. I have remarked this elsewhere on this forum.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
-
bigmo-Also in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.- That talmudic ruling is regarding payment of wages, while the quraanic verse seems to be talking about a different subject; still, ur point is taken. But I don't see the specific relevance of ur post. Are u saying that 2239 & 4101 should be abandoned because of a similarity found in the mishnah? Or that v should reinterpret them because of the similarity?
A remark regarding for a quraanic verse (375) u posted -- where the translation reads "ignorant (Pagans)," the arabic word is "ummiyyeen". In 622 muhammad is described as being from the "ummiyyeen," & in 7157 he is called the "ummiy" prophet. The translation of 375 is evidently incorrect. Also, the verse clearly shows that the people of the book are not ummiyyeen. I have remarked this elsewhere on this forum.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
Umiyeen is bascically gentiles. Those who have not inherited Divine scriptures. The Koran says that those who said to Muhamamd this is what was sent to Moses had no knowledge of the scriptures. I think its talking about the inventors of the Talmud.
-
Peace,
The Talmud is the combination of the Mishna and the Gemarra. The Mishna is believed to be the "oral Torah", the word of God through Moses. The Gemarra, however, is the interpretation and advice of the rabbis and religious leaders. So, just because the Talmud says something doesn't make it correct or accurate, especially if it's simply stating the words of the scholars and rabbis... The Qur'aan confirms many parts of the Mishna, not the Gemarra. Therefore, certain parts of the Gemarra, which are also in the Talmud, completely conflict with the guidance in the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
-
bigmo-Those who have not inherited Divine scriptures.
- That is my opinion, too -- that ummiyyeen had not previously received a divine book, & this is confirmed by the quraan.
-The Koran says that those who said to Muhamamd this is what was sent to Moses had no knowledge of the scriptures. I think its talking about the inventors of the Talmud.
- From 7157 & 622, v know that the ummiyyeen is not interchangeable with pagan. From 375, it is clear that the people of the book were not ummiyyeen.
278 talks about the ummiyyeen among the jews & christians who only had fancies & no knowledge about the book. 4123 also talks about similar vain fancies.
Judaism & christianity had infiltrated the deserts of arabia long before the revelation of the quraan. It is my understanding that the ummiyyeen of 278 are these converts to judaism & christianity who were not recipients of any divine scripture, & not short of fancy & conjecture.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen