umayyad caliph tried to shift pilgrimage location from mecca to jerusalem
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bingo-There is supossed to be a counter hadith saying pilgrimage can only be to two, Mecca and Medina. This was looked into by Western scholars. They believed the only two came after to counter the Ummayid hadith or something like that.
The hadith u seem to be referring to is perhaps the one that talks about prayer at medina mosque being superior to prayer at any other mosque except (prayer at) al-masjid al-haraam.
Can u give some more details?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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More fabrication to make jerusalem "important"
. .. An addition which, apparently, belonged to its original form but was later neglected by leveling orthodoxy in this and related sayings 'and a prayer in the Bayt al-Maqdis of Jerusalem is better than a thousand prayers in other holy places,' i.e. even Mecca or Medina. Later, too, 'Abd al-Malik is quoted when the pilgrimage to Jerusalem is to be equated with that to Mecca...
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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More fabrication to make jerusalem "important"
Peace
What is your opinion then on Caliph Umar's documented conquest of Jerusalem and his building of Masjid al Aqsa? Why build it if it was just a myth. We also know from the Quran that Jerusalem is far closer to where Muhammad would have lived than Mecca (as well as all the other problems with Mecca).
Roshan
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roshan-What is your opinion then on Caliph Umar's documented conquest of Jerusalem and his building of Masjid al Aqsa? Why build it if it was just a myth.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598008.0
We also know from the Quran that Jerusalem is far closer to where Muhammad would have lived than Mecca
Can u elaborate?
(as well as all the other problems with Mecca).
Can u elaborate?
What v do have available with us tells us that umar established a mosque at a dumping rock (at jerusalem, which people later intepreted to be the al-masjid al-aqsa of 171), & abd almalik tried to divert pilgrimage from mecca to jerusalem.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598008.0
A jewish perspective
One of the most fascinating questions about the Temple Mount after the Islamic occupation in 638 CE is connected with the Dome of the Rock. Important scientific research conducted by Ya'akov Ofir holds that the Dome of the Rock was built in 691CE for the Jews as their last house of prayer by their ally Abd el-Malik, the Umayyad ruler of Damascus, who also controlled the land of Israel in those days. The Jews who built the house believed that their redemption had already come. Ofir's conclusion is that the Dome of the Rock is a Jewish building.
The four Pillars on which the dome rests interspersed with 12 pillars around the rock. The 4 pillars represent the 4 camps of the Israelites in the wilderness while the 12 pillars represent the 12 tribes of Israel
Abd el-Malik was at war with the Abbasid Arab kingdom which controlled Arabia and Iraq. According to Ofir and others, Abd el-Malik was actually a follower of the Jewish faith. He ordered his citizens to pray with their faces towards Jerusalem and ordered them to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem instead of Mecca. One reason for this was that his citizens returned from their pilgrimages to Mecca with pro-Abbasid leanings. The Abbasids called Abd el-Malik an unbeliever and conducted wars against him.
Apparently, the site has nothing to do with the quraan or muhammad, & is the fancy of two sunni caliphs.
The only material which as much as links muhammad to jerusalem is a controversial hadith.
The Muslim connection to Jerusalem is extremely tenuous compared to Judaism and Christianity. In fact, it seems to be largely because the city is held sacred by the other two that Muslims lay claim to it as well. From the time of Muhammad to the present day, Islam has always been a "me too" faith, attempting to ride the coattails of the religion to which it hopes to aspire.
The official reason that Muslims claim Jerusalem for themselves - since marching an army into the city only two years after Muhammad's death - is that their prophet once visited there...
Unfortunately this would have been in a dream. Not in real life. As much as those who demand full control of Jerusalem today would prefer, there is simply no evidence that Muhammad's physical body ever made the trip.
Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an and did not occupy any special role in Islam long after Mohammed's death. Following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 636 AD, the new government did not make Jerusalem the political center of the area. This was fixed at Lydda till the year 716, then at Ar-Ramla (Ramleh). But in the Muslim view, too, Jerusalem, the city of David and Christ, became a very holy place, third only after Mecca and Medina, because of political developments.
It is holier-than-thou umar & "follower of jewish faith" abd almalik who made a dumping rock, and with it jerusalem, "important" to sunnis.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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roshan-What is your opinion then on Caliph Umar's documented conquest of Jerusalem and his building of Masjid al Aqsa? Why build it if it was just a myth.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598008.0
I read some of this post. I do not believe that masjid al aqsa in the Quran = masjid al aqsa in Jerusalem, but regardless Umar built some sort of building of religious significance there. If, as you allege, it was a rubbish dump at the time then this is surely even more of an indication of the importance of the place to the early Muslims.
We also know from the Quran that Jerusalem is far closer to where Muhammad would have lived than Mecca
Can u elaborate?(as well as all the other problems with Mecca).
"And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. And you pass by their ruins in the morning; And in the night. Do you not understand?" (37133-13
Problems with Mecca
- Not mentioned in the Quran.
- Bakkah mentioned in the Quran - whose location is clearly documented in history and know to the Jews and the Nazarenes (because remember bakkah was the home of Abraham).
- The lack of any non-religious (i.e. hadith) sources testifying to the existence of Mecca prior to the post Islam sectarian era.
Can u elaborate?
The only material which as much as links muhammad to jerusalem is a controversial hadith.
Apart from the Quranic quote re bakkah.
The point is, if you had been living in Mars for the past 2,000 years and came down to earth and just had the Quran and non-religious historical documents to follow, what would you have to convince yourself that the hajj (which does not mean pilgrimage anyway) was to Mecca as opposed to Bakkah?
I am also not sure whether you provided any evidence that Makka IS the place of hajj versus showing Bakka is NOT the place of hajj.
Roshan
Roshan
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roshan-I read some of this post. I do not believe that masjid al aqsa in the Quran = masjid al aqsa in Jerusalem, but regardless Umar built some sort of building of religious significance there. If, as you allege, it was a rubbish dump at the time then this is surely even more of an indication of the importance of the place to the early Muslims.
- I quoted what has come down to us. If u have something to the contrary, then do post it.
How is a dumping place important to early muslims? Merely umar & kaab made it important.
-"And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. And you pass by their ruins in the morning; And in the night. Do you not understand?" (37133-13
1583 and the Cry seized them in the morning;
What did u not understand?
-Problems with Mecca
- Not mentioned in the Quran.
- Wrong, it is mentioned in 4824. And the next verse mentions al-masjid al-haraam.
Let me see "jerusalem" in quraan. (I would prefer if there's a verse talking about al-masjid al-haraam preceding or succeeding it; v can then talk about coincidences).
-2) Bakkah mentioned in the Quran - whose location is clearly documented in history and know to the Jews and the Nazarenes (because remember bakkah was the home of Abraham).
I will gladly respond to the rest of ur post (including what "hajj" means anyway), but before that what's ur take on muhammad & "becca"? I guess u have some quraanic verses and accepted history to back urself. Let me take a look at it.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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According to Ofir and others, Abd el-Malik was actually a follower of the Jewish faith. He ordered his citizens to pray with their faces towards Jerusalem and ordered them to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem instead of Mecca.
What would a follower of jewish faith have to do with the quraan? This would be in perfect conformity with the quraanic assertion of the people of the book seeking to mislead the people.
398 Say"O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"
399 Say"O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, Seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? but Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do."
Very apt that he rejected the kaaba at mecca, & honored the dumping rock at jerusalem.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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bigmo-There is supossed to be a counter hadith saying pilgrimage can only be to two, Mecca and Medina. This was looked into by Western scholars. They believed the only two came after to counter the Ummayid hadith or something like that.
Did u get any dope on that counter hadith, which was looked into by western scholars?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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-"And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. And you pass by their ruins in the morning; And in the night. Do you not understand?" (37133-13
What did u not understand?
Peace
For me, the verse demonstrates that Muhammad lived about 1/2 days travel away from Sodom. This is nowhere near Mecca.
-Problems with Mecca
- Not mentioned in the Quran.
- Wrong, it is mentioned in 4824. And the next verse mentions al-masjid al-haraam.
Let me see "jerusalem" in quraan. (I would prefer if there's a verse talking about al-masjid al-haraam preceding or succeeding it; v can then talk about coincidences).
I think I was referring to in the context of pilgrimage (and some have translated 'mecca' as 'destruction'. Have you read the context of the verse?
4824 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Sacred Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.The important question is whether you believe that Bakkah = Mecca and why you believe God uses two words for the same place?
-2) Bakkah mentioned in the Quran - whose location is clearly documented in history and know to the Jews and the Nazarenes (because remember bakkah was the home of Abraham).
I will gladly respond to the rest of ur post (including what "hajj" means anyway), but before that what's ur take on muhammad & "becca"? I guess u have some quraanic verses and accepted history to back urself. Let me take a look at it.
396 The first Dwelling established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 In it are clear signs the situation of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Dwelling, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.There is no doubt that the place of pilgrimage is Bakkah. The question is where is Bakkah?
For me, it is Jerusalem becaue Bakkah is a defined place, it is the valley around Jerusalem. It is also mentioned in the Pslams of the Old Testament as well (with regards to 'pilgrimage'. Furthermore, Jerusalem has also been a focal point for Jews prior to Muhammad and has a distinguished religious history. Mecca simply does not have this prior to Muhammad.
Roshan
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roshan-I think I was referring to in the context of pilgrimage (and some have translated 'mecca' as 'destruction'. Have you read the context of the verse?
The verses 4824-25 make it clear that there was no war & no destrcution. Plain verses. It also makes clear that the people of mecca were not allowing the believers access to almasjid alharaam. Also refer to 834.
-The important question is whether you believe that Bakkah = Mecca and why you believe God uses two words for the same place?
Medina was called yathrib aforetime, & both the names are mentioned in the quraan. Why did God use two names for the same place?
Adopting ur style, why did God never mention jerusalem in the quraan.
-For me, it is Jerusalem becaue Bakkah is a defined place, it is the valley around Jerusalem. It is also mentioned in the Pslams of the Old Testament as well (with regards to 'pilgrimage'. Furthermore, Jerusalem has also been a focal point for Jews prior to Muhammad and has a distinguished religious history. Mecca simply does not have this prior to Muhammad.
There is no evidence of jerusalem ever being called becca.
Named after pagan deity http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
Nor of the prophet ever being there. & the well-recorded history of jerusalem is what u need to contradict if u want to locate muhammad there. Also, try locating the word "jerusalem" in the quraan.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah rabb al'alaameen
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There is no doubt that the place of pilgrimage is Bakkah. The question is where is Bakkah?
For me, it is Jerusalem becaue Bakkah is a defined place, it is the valley around Jerusalem. It is also mentioned in the Pslams of the Old Testament as well (with regards to 'pilgrimage'. Furthermore, Jerusalem has also been a focal point for Jews prior to Muhammad and has a distinguished religious history. Mecca simply does not have this prior to Muhammad.
Valley Of Bakkaa Situated at current Lebanon..
From ancient times up till today.. this place is always known as BAKKA/Bekka..
A fertile region with abundant rain..http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekaa_Valley
In the valley, there's a huge remains of ancient 'holy' site..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek -
Valley Of Bakkaa Situated at current Lebanon..
From ancient times up till today.. this place is always known as BAKKA/Bekka..
A fertile region with abundant rain..http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekaa_Valley
In the valley, there's a huge remains of ancient 'holy' site..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbekpeace
The Valley of Bekka in Lebanon is not the same as Becca in the Quran - they are two different words, like Arab and 'al 3rab'.
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roshan-For me, the verse demonstrates that Muhammad lived about 1/2 days travel away from Sodom..
- I overlooked replying to the above. I am aware of the difficulty popularized by crone. Her claim, which she bases on her understanding of the relevant verses, that muhammad must have lived in the vicinity of those ruins is a fantasy.
I would like u to demonstrate how ur proposal that muhammad lived within half a day's journey of those ruins allows his people to be there every morning & every night (which I believe is ur understanding of that verse)
-The Valley of Bekka in Lebanon is not the same as Becca in the Quran - they are two different words,
- If geulim is what u are proposing as bible's valley of bakha, then please consider that it suffers from the very lack which makes u reject lebanon's beqaa valley. I am sure u will reject ur proposed location in keeping with ur observation of lebanon's beqaa valley. Also, being located on a map doesn't attest to its anitquity. Not that it matters, because the connection is a sectarian concoction any which way.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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peace
The Valley of Bekka in Lebanon is not the same as Becca in the Quran - they are two different words, like Arab and 'al 3rab'.
Quran 396-97
The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakkah, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds., In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.Psalm 84
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Selah
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in ZionThe valley of Baca/Beqa is
- Place of springs.. litani and orontes river is crossing over it..
- Had a modest rainfall
Rainfall Comparison
- Becca Valley Lebanon 9 inches
- Mecca, Saudi Arabia 3.33 inches
- Had a magnificent ruins of ancient temple (baal-bek)
Baal-Bek, From wikipedia
The history of Baalbeck dates back around 5000 years. Excavations near the Jupiter temple have revealed the existence of ancient human habitation dating to the Early Bronze Age (2900-2300 BC).During the Roman era Baal-Bek was chosen for the temple of Jupiter, the largest temple of the Roman world, as well as the temple of Bacchus which is the most complete Roman temple known today. But long before the Roman and the Greek empires Baal-Bek stood as an ancient city site believed by some to be 'the' oldest city in the world due to the presence of the 'Trilithon'. They are three impossibly massive stones of over 60 feet in height, 14 feet across,and 10 feet in depth. They each weight in excess of 100,000 tons and are the largest stone constructions on earth representing a level of technology impossible to duplicate even with modern methods and equipment.
Regarding the name of Ba'al
At first the name Ba'al was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Ba'al was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubba'al were changed to Jerubbosheth Hebrew bosheth means "shame".Regardless whether this is the place for pilgrimage or not (I actually couldn't care less)..
There are something hidden within the baal-bek site.
It is quite strange to find the Romans build enormous temple for their gods (Jupiter etc..) in that location?
Thousand miles away from their home (Rome)?
Why not build it on Mt Olympus?? (Where supposedly Jupiter resides) or somewhere in Greek??
What is it that make Baal-Bek and thus Bekka Valley so special for the Romans??And the presence of massive stones there is just totally puzzling!
Who carved and erected that stone?? How they do it in ancient times??
What's the original purpose of that stone?
The massive stones has been there centuries before the existence of romans or the greeks..Salam / Peace
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