Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!
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In Islam, according to the Quran, even though God created evil
Evil in man? Or in the world around the man? Allah gave you His Ruh, the soul i.e., the criterion; and there is then His Command to use the criterion the Furqan; and follow the Furqan, the RUH as it Guides wading you through, even as the giant waves of evil tempest surround you from all around. Allah is with him who seeks Him, for there is no evil in His Best creation, the Man. And He made the whole universe to be subservient to him by His Leave. Stay clear of the evil with Allah's help and forgiveness.
"For us, hell is not forever, and any evil which exists is only temporarily used by God to bring about an ultimate good.
I hope this clarifies things.
We generally are very dare enough to say things about which we are yet to become clear. Can you show me which ayat says "Hell is not forever" after the judgement is over. You will see everywhere in Quran saying it is forever. For it is well established as Allah's fiercest warning.
And they say Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say " Have you received such promise from Allah? Then Allah breaks not His promise! Or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?
Does not Allah despises and curses a people who casts lies on Allah? Do you remember those verses, brother? Is it not that you speak of Hadith and not of Quran? And the Hadith is antagonistic to the Quran and Allah and Rasul with its lies cast in every pages of it, throughout?
Peace
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Mazhar + dr Fazl
Salaam brothers
@ Mazhar
This is exactly what the Jews proclaim. Where is it written that anyone who goes into hell, that is not his abode for ever. It is nothing but self deception.
Actually, it is stated clearly in the Quran
011.107
They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.It is a mistake and a misunderstanding to think that God created some of His creatures solely for the purpose of punishing them forever (like the Christians). At the same time it is also a mistake to believe that just because hell is temporary, we can do evil deeds as "the fire will only touch us for a little while", (like the Jews) because that "little while" will feel like an eternity. There is a hadith somewhere which states that the longest period that anyone will spend in hell would be the equivalent of their life here on earth. Something like 80 years for the last person to be taken out of hell. There are actually many hadiths which say that eventually everyone will be taken out of hell.
@ dr Fazl
Brother, you had not said anything of your own belief until now but airing out the belief that objectively existed among the masses which belief got disseminated almost into extinction. Thus a single muslim community has been dispersed into followers of splinter groups sniping at each other.
Such was the will of God.
And you are giving assurance for others that very few follow the majority.
Actually, I said the exact opposite. You seem to have misunderstood most of what I said in my previous post. Instead of repeating myself, I will ask you to read what I wrote again and then respond.
When you consider object as prime source of belief,
Again, not true.
you shall see only what is visible outwardly for there is nothing to believe unless you have the inclination to see beyond and observe and get at the insight hidden.
You think I am rejecting esoteric interpretations, while I am not. I am only rejecting those interpretations which are misguided and unreasonable. Which also lack any historical precedent.
I will hear from you and hope to hear soon an insight distinctly edging towards the Truth.
This of course implies that you are an objective judge capable of determining truth for everyone. When you are not. You can only hope to associate "truth" with your own biased understandings (like everyone else).
Brother, truism need not be established for it is the evidence by itself.
Wrong. Truism is something which is accepted without evidence, just because it is accepted as true by the majority.
Again you say I argue, when there is no counter to what I had reasoned out by way of reasoning.
Yes there is. Your argument was defeated on grounds of reason as well.
It is not the question if I am displeased - I had just admonished Allah does not like arguments!
Fair enough.
Historical precedence is not the criterion for reasoning; and they shall never go hand in hand. Following historical precedence is following the habitual of forefathers. You become a follower of tradition and ritual; and there is very little room for reasoning and reasonable following of the Great Way, the Islam!
Wrong. In matters of ritual, historical precedence establishes the validity of an interpretation. Fasting is a ritual, and its etiquette is also a ritual. Rituals can not be reasoned with, as they are by nature irrational. This is why historical precedence is needed to establish claims.
But your reasoning for your arguments, lets not forget, is not much better.
Wahy or intuition or the verses of Quran is purely subjective whose Truth will keep unfolding objectively till the D-Day.
Better wording then before, but I still disagree. Wahy is not "intuition".
History cannot be taken to the future, for the future is unseen and unknown and one has to be hopeful of the unseen future; if you ponder, hope and belief in the unseen is very very subjective. Objectivity is out of shape here. The Truth is the Straight Path which again is Wisdom i.e., the subjective and intuitional guidance. You cannot see objectively the God Guided Straight Path. Yet again, Allah Himself shall be felt subjectively and you cannot see to believe God, objectively.
This argument is also valid against your point of view, but helps me more. Because my view on the issue of this particular issue is based not in subjective reasoning, but historical precedence.
If Quran is objective, then there is no need for pondering on it;
This statement makes no sense. Truth is objective, this does not mean we should give up hope of discovering it. God guides by faith. And guidance comes in stages. So pondering subjectively is walking forward on a path. But the key thing here is that we can never actually attain objectivity.
Predestination is about the future. This creates a sense of fear for Allah, all purely subjective for the Believers. Fear for our sins of yesterday, today and tomorrow. We live for tomorrow not for yesterday. We seek forgiveness and guidance and we hopefully pray and believe Allah putting our Trust in Him that He will forgive us and conduct in the Straight Path of no short comings, tests and distresses. The whole life thus become subjective and it is still ahead of us as future.
Any way please give Definition of Predestination without subjectivity attached to it.
Not exactly. Predestination is not about the "future". In a deterministic universe, "time" is an illusion. There is no "past" "present" or "future" if our fates have already been written and decided. Those words are just our subjective and limited (and finite) perceptions of something infinite (time).
Evil in man? Or in the world around the man? Allah gave you His Ruh, the soul i.e., the criterion; and there is then His Command to use the criterion the Furqan; and follow the Furqan, the RUH as it Guides wading you through, even as the giant waves of evil tempest surround you from all around. Allah is with him who seeks Him, for there is no evil in His Best creation, the Man. And He made the whole universe to be subservient to him by His Leave. Stay clear of the evil with Allah's help and forgiveness.
Yes, Evil in man. Do you know what Evil is? It is impurity. And all men, in this way are evil. When a man called Jesus PBUH "good"... Jesus PBUH admonished him. Because he knew that no man can truly be "good"... only God is "good" because only God can do good objectively, without any expectation of rewards or an increase in vanity.
We generally are very dare enough to say things about which we are yet to become clear. Can you show me which ayat says "Hell is not forever" after the judgement is over. You will see everywhere in Quran saying it is forever. For it is well established as Allah's fiercest warning.
I actually did provide the verse in response to Mazhar.
Does not Allah despises and curses a people who casts lies on Allah? Do you remember those verses, brother? Is it not that you speak of Hadith and not of Quran? And the Hadith is antagonistic to the Quran and Allah and Rasul with its lies cast in every pages of it, throughout?
Are you accusing me of casting lies against God? While you are telling people that it is ok to have intercourse while one is fasting during Ramadan?
PeAcE
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Mazhar + dr Fazl
Salaam brothers
@ dr Fazl
Actually, I said the exact opposite. You seem to have misunderstood most of what I said in my previous post. Instead of repeating myself, I will ask you to read what I wrote again and then respond.
Again, not true.
You think I am rejecting esoteric interpretations, while I am not. I am only rejecting those interpretations which are misguided and unreasonable. Which also lack any historical precedent.
This of course implies that you are an objective judge capable of determining truth for everyone. When you are not. You can only hope to associate "truth" with your own biased understandings (like everyone else).
Wrong. Truism is something which is accepted without evidence, just because it is accepted as true by the majority.
Yes there is. Your argument was defeated on grounds of reason as well.
Fair enough.
Wrong. In matters of ritual, historical precedence establishes the validity of an interpretation. Fasting is a ritual, and its etiquette is also a ritual. Rituals can not be reasoned with, as they are by nature irrational. This is why historical precedence is needed to establish claims.
But your reasoning for your arguments, lets not forget, is not much better.
Better wording then before, but I still disagree. Wahy is not "intuition".
This argument is also valid against your point of view, but helps me more. Because my view on the issue of this particular issue is based not in subjective reasoning, but historical precedence.
This statement makes no sense. Truth is objective, this does not mean we should give up hope of discovering it. God guides by faith. And guidance comes in stages. So pondering subjectively is walking forward on a path. But the key thing here is that we can never actually attain objectivity.
Not exactly. Predestination is not about the "future". In a deterministic universe, "time" is an illusion. There is no "past" "present" or "future" if our fates have already been written and decided. Those words are just our subjective and limited (and finite) perceptions of something infinite (time).
Yes, Evil in man. Do you know what Evil is? It is impurity. And all men, in this way are evil. When a man called Jesus PBUH "good"... Jesus PBUH admonished him. Because he knew that no man can truly be "good"... only God is "good" because only God can do good objectively, without any expectation of rewards or an increase in vanity.
I actually did provide the verse in response to Mazhar.
Are you accusing me of casting lies against God? While you are telling people that it is ok to have intercourse while one is fasting during Ramadan?
PeAcE
Brother,
You seem to adopt a style, with a simple 'No - Wrong - not true - again, not true - no sense and so on'. I need concrete explanative support to what you say as a man of faith in objects, without subjective understanding attached to it. Hearsay and history is your Quran! Indeed it is nothing but tragedy!When it comes to definition of precedence, it is full of subjective feeling such as
In a deterministic universe, "time" is an illusion. There is no "past" "present" or "future" if our fates have already been written and decided. Those words are just our subjective and limited (and finite) perceptions of something infinite (time).
There is no objective definition over there. This is evidence for you to know that subjectiveness matters for understanding. God is invisible and infinite and so are all of His Attributes. Our life must be lived through in this universe with His help and of His attributes e.g., forgiving, merciful, patience, faithful, giving and such that. If one follows the history he is living in the dead past otherwise in the graves. Similarly if one is living for the future and hereafter he is with the liveliness of Allah. These two ends cannot meet as they face with their backs to each other.
Fasting is a ritual, and its etiquette is also a ritual. Rituals can not be reasoned with, as they are by nature irrational. This is why historical precedence is needed to establish claims.
What a claim! And What an understanding! For you fasting is ritual; and yes, ritual cannot be reasoned and you admit you follow unreasonableness! What a wasteful exercise! If you reason there cannot be ritual and you will be saved from hadith of the people. Read Allah's hadith in the last part of 2 185 to know the rationality why you should fast. History is full of chaos and mischief and confusion. Even Allah's earlier scriptures are meddled with - and this is the reason why Allah says He has taken upon Himself the protection of the Book. But you are bent only upon hadith, the hearsay, the stories of the past such as the biblical history and mosaic law.
Are you accusing me of casting lies against God? While you are telling people that it is ok to have intercourse while one is fasting during Ramadan?
How can you be sure you are not as long as you are following the hadith of the people and believing not in the subjectivity and hadith of Allah - but relying only on the objective forms, and then following the idolized things?
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Salaam code,
Actually, it is stated clearly in the Quran
011.107
They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.It is a mistake and a misunderstanding to think that God created some of His creatures solely for the purpose of punishing them forever (like the Christians). At the same time it is also a mistake to believe that just because hell is temporary, we can do evil deeds as "the fire will only touch us for a little while", (like the Jews) because that "little while" will feel like an eternity. There is a hadith somewhere which states that the longest period that anyone will spend in hell would be the equivalent of their life here on earth. Something like 80 years for the last person to be taken out of hell. There are actually many hadiths which say that eventually everyone will be taken out of hell.
I'm sure the others will respond as well; that if interpreted as such would actually be a clear contradiction.
Read in context, next verse the words are repeated verbatim for the opposite case?11107
1110811107-108 Eternally in it as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And but those who were made happy, so in the Paradise, eternally in it, as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.
A gift not cut is not an except/exception rather illa/only continuous and uninterrupted as the punishment.
Peace
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dr Fazl + Eid
Salaam brothers
@ dr Fazl
Brother,
You seem to adopt a style, with a simple 'No - Wrong - not true - again, not true - no sense and so on'. I need concrete explanative support to what you say as a man of faith in objects, without subjective understanding attached to it. Hearsay and history is your Quran! Indeed it is nothing but tragedy!It is you who have continuously made one unqualified assertion after another. This entire thread is based on an argument for a position you hold, a position which defies simply logic. Not only have you failed to defend your views against scrutiny, you are now accusing me of wrongfully interpreting the Quran, which I find amusing.
There is no objective definition over there. This is evidence for you to know that subjectiveness matters for understanding. God is invisible and infinite and so are all of His Attributes. Our life must be lived through in this universe with His help and of His attributes e.g., forgiving, merciful, patience, faithful, giving and such that. If one follows the history he is living in the dead past otherwise in the graves. Similarly if one is living for the future and hereafter he is with the liveliness of Allah. These two ends cannot meet as they face with their backs to each other.
Actually, not a single thing I said in that sentence was "subjective" or unqualified because what I said is, in a sense, the direct CONSEQUENCE of a fully deterministic universe. It is advanced physics. If this confuses you, then you should stop asking such questions (If you can't keep up with the answers)
What a claim! And What an understanding! For you fasting is ritual; and yes, ritual cannot be reasoned and you admit you follow unreasonableness! What a wasteful exercise! If you reason there cannot be ritual and you will be saved from hadith of the people. Read Allah's hadith in the last part of 2 185 to know the rationality why you should fast. History is full of chaos and mischief and confusion. Even Allah's earlier scriptures are meddled with - and this is the reason why Allah says He has taken upon Himself the protection of the Book. But you are bent only upon hadith, the hearsay, the stories of the past such as the biblical history and mosaic law.
It is that very "reason" behind fasting which your entire argument from post #1 of this thread rejects. And as for my "claim" that rituals are irrational, that is not a "claim" at all. Go and ask someone who has studied philosophy whether or not rituals can be classed as "rational" from the point of view of philosophy.
How can you be sure you are not as long as you are following the hadith of the people and believing not in the subjectivity and hadith of Allah - but relying only on the objective forms, and then following the idolized things?
But I didnt accuse you did I? You accused me. I am not sure of the perfection of my knowledge, this is why I did not say that you are lying. But you seem to be so sure of yourself, that you accused me of fabricating lies against God... and why? Because I have contradicted your flawed logic.
@ Eid
I'm sure the others will respond as well; that if interpreted as such would actually be a clear contradiction.
Read in context, next verse the words are repeated verbatim for the opposite case?11107
1110811107-108 Eternally in it as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And but those who were made happy, so in the Paradise, eternally in it, as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.
A gift not cut is not an except/exception rather illa/only continuous and uninterrupted as the punishment.
Peace
Here are three different translations of that verse
011.107
YUSUFALI They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
PICKTHAL Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
SHAKIR Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.As you can plainly see, there is no contradiction at all. In fact, if you interpret those verses as justifying eternal damnation, that would contradict the verses of the Quran which say that Allah is Merciful. Try and explain how a merciful Creator would create a being solely for the purpose of punishing it in eternal fire. You can't do it.
Also, the verse ends by signaling that there is a purpose for hell, and it clearly implies that God wants to bring about a change through such an ordeal. Remember that in the Quran God has said that He created man as an upright being, and that is man's true nature. Therefore, this the mission of God for man, and that mission has to be fullfilled one way or another, come hell or high water. This is what is meant by the ending promise in this verse "Your Lord Is Doer of What He Intends"... Clearly implying that man will be purified, the easy way (in this life) or the hard way (in the next). One way or another, man will be made fit for eternal life in heaven.
PeAcE
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dr Fazl + Eid
Salaam brothers
@ dr Fazl
It is you who have continuously made one unqualified assertion after another. This entire thread is based on an argument for a position you hold, a position which defies simply logic. Not only have you failed to defend your views against scrutiny, you are now accusing me of wrongfully interpreting the Quran, which I find amusing.
Salaam
You are a believer in ritual or a stereotyped behaviour without reasoning, i.e., your behaviour is you dare not ask why to meaningless practices or dare not clarify as to why you do certain ceremony and towards what cause so that you satisfied your reasoning faculties - thus I see you as a meaningless follower of ceremonial practices. It is not pertinent at this stage for me to push you to answer me the reasoning behind anything, leave alone fasting! I had to explain these only to defuse your amusement. Islam is a series of ceremonial bundle of acting or worship, a twig of such acting is fasting - Is this your view? Am I rightly getting you?
Actually, not a single thing I said in that sentence was "subjective" or unqualified because what I said is, in a sense, the direct CONSEQUENCE of a fully deterministic universe. It is advanced physics. If this confuses you, then you should stop asking such questions (If you can't keep up with the answers)
I know you are a physical man. Previously you were a student of physics; now a student of advanced physics that pushes the earlier physics behind - and tomorrow? Subjectively you will become a believer in a super advanced physics? And day after tomorrow - you will grow subjectively more and more?
It is that very "reason" behind fasting which your entire argument from post #1 of this thread rejects. And as for my "claim" that rituals are irrational, that is not a "claim" at all. Go and ask someone who has studied philosophy whether or not rituals can be classed as "rational" from the point of view of philosophy.
You are not yet a philosopher i.e., one who loves pursuing the Wisdom. As you admit you had studied philosophy you were a student of the system! You ritually study the books, ceremonially graduate and there is nothing you had developed as wisdom of your own - be it physics or philosophy; and you say to me to go and ask some one who studied the philosophy. Is there a full stop to studies? Or is it a continuous process till eternity? If it is so, is it right to go to some student who is yet to become complete in attaining the status of Wisdom? I am asking you to speak your self. Since the self is the Light and it is very much subjective, you are in the dark and in the philosophically chaotic mood.
Peace.
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Salaam brother c0de,
Keeping in mind that there cannot be confusion and contradiction between the ayats of Allah, I bring to mind another ayat from another chapter, where Allah says you will abide therein forever - hell or heaven. On the D Day, the heavens will vanish and the earth will become plain dust. Now the everlasting and never ending remodeling of the skies and earth begins. And as far the earth its expanse will be as the breadth of the earth and the skies. Follow the 2 verses I cite below and thereafter you will know the real meaning of " so long as the heavens and the earth endure ... "
14 48
One day the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and you will be marshalled forth, before Allah, the One, the Irresistible.3 133
Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-11.107
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure except as your Lord pleases;surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.Now all this combined together to get at the correct meaning in no uncertain terms read the ayat below, so that there is no need for extra interpretation.
3 23 Have you not seen those who are given some knowledge of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back to their hadiths and they withdraw.
3 24 This is because they say The fire shall not touch us but for a few days; and what they have forged deceives them in the matter of their religion.
2 80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have you taken such a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that you say of Allah what you do not know?"
These are those that cast lies on Allah.
You must read Quran seeking the Wisdom from Him brushing aside all the human taught philosophies and inconsistencies, to be Guided by Allah through the Quran, Save me from satanic subjects of physics and philosophies shall be your prayer whenever you touch Quran.
Peace.
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Peace code,
Here are three different translations of that verse
011.107
YUSUFALI They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
PICKTHAL Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
SHAKIR Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.As you can plainly see, there is no contradiction at all.
Read in context, all three translations contradict. Again the two verses (you did not include 1110 use identical wording, see part in BOLD?
11108 Waamma allatheena suAAidoo fafee aljannati khalideena feeha ma damati alssamawatu waal-ardu illa ma shaa rabbuka AAataan ghayra majthoothin
Yusuf Ali And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth a gift without break.
Now apply consistency, tell us what is the exception and how long in the Garden? A clear contradiction in the very same sentence in the words used prior and following illa best derived from context similar to?
Allahu la ilaha illa huwa -- God, no God only He
The word except implies leaving out part or some, exclusions and more than one. To use ?except? would be a contradiction since there are no exceptions to the above or below statement?
11107-108
Eternally in it as long as the skies and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And those who were made happy, so in the Paradise eternally in it, as long as the skies and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.In fact, if you interpret those verses as justifying eternal damnation, that would contradict the verses of the Quran which say that Allah is Merciful. Try and explain how a merciful Creator would create a being solely for the purpose of punishing it in eternal fire. You can't do it.
Atheist argument, two sides of the same coin, etc. There is no contradiction; God is Merciful to those who repent, nor created to be punished all have choice to reward/punish themselves, simple as that -- their choice.
Also, the verse ends by signaling that there is a purpose for hell, and it clearly implies that God wants to bring about a change through such an ordeal. Remember that in the Quran God has said that He created man as an upright being, and that is man's true nature. Therefore, this the mission of God for man, and that mission has to be fullfilled one way or another, come hell or high water. This is what is meant by the ending promise in this verse "Your Lord Is Doer of What He Intends"... Clearly implying that man will be purified, the easy way (in this life) or the hard way (in the next). One way or another, man will be made fit for eternal life in heaven.
Conjecture. With all conscious circumstances remains ability to ?choose one?s attitude? (the start of all action) ? the test. Otherwise, why even bother about anything if thoughts are a programmed domino chain reaction.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD7ZI5gNia0
Peace
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@ Fazl
Since you are still insisting that religion is based on rationality and rituals have to be based in reason, I will not even attempt following up with you because your own point is illogical. The whole idea of religion is to TRANSCEND rationality. But you wouldnt know anything about that, would you? And for all your hope in rationality, it is funny that your entire argument from post #1 lacks a basic sense of valid reasoning. I mean before you do anything else, at least apply this same rationality to your own argument! ('abstinence for a couple of hours a day promotes impurity'... LOL!)
@ Mazhar
rite... all the translations are wrong... and you are right. ) (great argument, I wish I could argue like that) P There is no CONTRADICTION in using the word "except" you are just seeing one because it doesnt fit within your own view of things. And as for your argument for free will, I will just say that free will contradicts God's Omnipotence and Omniscience, this is why it is invalid. But I am sure you will try to find a way around that like the Christians have been trying to do (and failing) for the past 1000 years. Have fun!
PeAcE
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Peace everyone,
After pondering over 2187, I have come to the conclusion that dr fazl's understanding of intercourse being allowed during the daytime of abstinence is erroneous and incorrect. My reasoning is as follows
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the abstinence until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
One has to look at the complete part in bold to see what exactly is included in the abstinence from dawn till night. Please note that it says you shall complete the abstinence until night. It does not say you shall not eat or drink until night. So what exactly is to be abstained from has to be determined by examining the complete part in bold above. "And do not approach them while you are devoted in masaajid" is also part of abstinence so one CANNOT have sex while devoted in the institution of obedience. WHILE ONE IS ABSTAINING ONE IS OBEYING GOD'S COMMAND AND ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY DEVOTED IN THE INSTITUTION OF OBEDIENCE WHILE ABSTAINING, SO NO INTERCOURSE DURING ABSTINENCE. I believe God is very clear on this.
It has been extensively discussed and debated on this forum that "masjid" as used in the great reading can only be "institution of obedience". One can use the search function for the appropriate threads. One can also read the following article for pertinent discussion
http//www.free-minds.org/name
May God guide us all to the truth.
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Peace everyone,
After pondering over 2187, I have come to the conclusion that dr fazl's understanding of intercourse being allowed during the daytime of abstinence is erroneous and incorrect. My reasoning is as follows
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the abstinence until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
One has to look at the complete part in bold to see what exactly is included in the abstinence from dawn till night. Please note that it says you shall complete the abstinence until night. It does not say you shall not eat or drink until night. So what exactly is to be abstained from has to be determined by examining the complete part in bold above. "And do not approach them while you are devoted in masaajid" is also part of abstinence so one CANNOT have sex while devoted in the institution of obedience. WHILE ONE IS ABSTAINING ONE IS OBEYING GOD'S COMMAND AND ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY DEVOTED IN THE INSTITUTION OF OBEDIENCE WHILE ABSTAINING, SO NO INTERCOURSE DURING ABSTINENCE. I believe God is very clear on this.
It has been extensively discussed and debated on this forum that "masjid" as used in the great reading can only be "institution of obedience". One can use the search function for the appropriate threads. One can also read the following article for pertinent discussion
http//www.free-minds.org/name
May God guide us all to the truth.
While much appreciating truthseeker's view point, I would like to draw attention to each and every aspect of the ayats here, for furthering the pondering. There are 10 parts in this ayat.
- Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives
- They are garment for you and you are garment for them.
- Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves
- and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you.
- So hold intercourse with them
- and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you,
- and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn.
- Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall
- and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques.
- These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not.
- Thus Allah explains His revelation to mankind that they may fear.
I am taking the first 2 parts of the ayats alone
The first part is about the night and the second part is about the day. As far as the night is concerned, it is out of purview to fasting for fasting is a day time observance. So Allah first removes the confusion caused by the damned reprobates. There ends the first part of the ayat which is not at all concerned with fasting.
Before going to the second part, which expounds about the day time of fasting, let us ponder the first part and come to a conclusion to see if we are arriving at the above observation.
Peace.
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codeI think my laughter indicates amusement at your absurd logic.
c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.
Peace.
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c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.whatever
Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.
(LOL!) That's great professor... now try comparing your definition to the ACTUAL definition of logic, and see if you can see the difference (and the fact that your definition is EXACTLY opposed to the actual definition)
"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference . Logic is a branch of philosophy, a part of the classical trivium, as well as a branch of mathematics and computer science. The word derives from Greek (logike), fem. of (logikos), "possessed of reason, intellectual, dialectical, argumentative", from logos, "word, thought, idea, argument, account, reason, or principle".
Logic concerns the structure of statements and arguments, in formal systems of inference and natural language. Topics include validity, fallacies and paradoxes, reasoning using probability and arguments involving causality. Logic is also commonly used today in argumentation theory."
^^^ Notice how your original argument contains none of what is highlighted in BOLD
but contains much of what is highlighted in REDPeAcE
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"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference
Logic means to be engaged in the learning or understanding process of a subject say, the principles. So keep your cool and be humble while you are in the process of learning the principles, the basic rules of understanding.
With regard to valid demonstration and inference In demonstration, can there be invalid demonstration too? That's nice! Then the inference is abstract thought or logical conclusion.
Then the Logic .... it is not the end neither what you conclude is the Truth.
Your LOL proves you have run out of points.
Welcome.
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Salam,
what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!
So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf
best regards
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Salam,
what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!
So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf
Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting
Peace,
Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.
Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.
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Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting
Peace,
Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.
Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.
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Dear Brother
Why is it so ?
Someone is very keen to have sex before marriage.
Someone is very keen to have intercourse during fasting.
Cann't you guys control yourself ?
Regards