Following The Messenger

rashidala

Salaam Alaikum,

I am sure this may be old hat to those here more educated in Islam than I, but I am looking for some daleel on how following the Messenger is following the Qur'an.

I have read Yuksel's post on Salat and a few others, but, if there are other links to Praying according to Qur'an only, I would appreciate it.

Ma Salaam

Wakas

type in "messenger" in the search function found here http//www.free-minds.org

It will bring up articles

Samson

May peace be upon you-

rashidala - my apologies but I do not know what "daleel" means. Since you say "the" Messenger, I suspect you are talking about Muhammad.

Maybe this excerpt below will address your question?

Messengers say "Revere/obey/worship God and obey/follow me"

One of the arguments I often hear is that the Quran instructs us to obey Prophet Muhammad ? and so we must follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad.

I have a very different interpretation of the verses that tell us to obey Prophet Muhammad. I interpret this to mean that his followers should obey him during his lifetime, of which I believe the most crucial thing to obey is his recitation of the Quran. I believe that ALL of the messengers were given God?s authority to instruct their followers to OBEY THEM. If this is so, then again, selecting ONLY the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad would be in contradiction to the Quranic theme ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

Let's compare the following verses (Khalifa translations for the most part)

331 Proclaim "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

350 "I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, and obey me.

2090 And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."

26108 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26110 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me."

26126 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26131 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26144 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26150 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26163 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26179 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

4363 When Jesus went with the proofs, he said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

713 "To alert you that you shall worship GOD, reverence Him, and obey me.

John 1421 (NIV) Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."*

As we see, this verse in the Bible aligns with the Quran (e.g. 4363)

My point If the name of the messenger is not given, I cannot distinguish which messenger said they should be obeyed -- without looking in the Quran or the Bible.

Here is which prophet said what

Prophet Muhammad 331
Prophet Jesus 350, John 1421 (this verse also aligns with the Quran e.g. 350)
Prophet Noah 26108, 26110, 713
Prophet Hood 26126, 26131
Prophet Saaleh 26144, 26150
Prophet Lot 26163
Prophet Shu?aib 26179

A common argument I hear is the position that because the Quran said we needed to obey Prophet Muhammad, that we need to follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad. I would argue that if we are going to follow the Hadith and Sunna of ONE of the prophets, that the Quran infers we must follow any existing Hadith and Sunna of the OTHER prophets as well. Otherwise, I believe we are violating the guideline ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

unknownuser

Peace samson

Great post

belH

May peace be upon you-

rashidala - my apologies but I do not know what "daleel" means. Since you say "the" Messenger, I suspect you are talking about Muhammad.

Maybe this excerpt below will address your question?

Messengers say "Revere/obey/worship God and obey/follow me"

One of the arguments I often hear is that the Quran instructs us to obey Prophet Muhammad ? and so we must follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad.

I have a very different interpretation of the verses that tell us to obey Prophet Muhammad. I interpret this to mean that his followers should obey him during his lifetime, of which I believe the most crucial thing to obey is his recitation of the Quran. I believe that ALL of the messengers were given God?s authority to instruct their followers to OBEY THEM. If this is so, then again, selecting ONLY the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad would be in contradiction to the Quranic theme ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

Let's compare the following verses (Khalifa translations for the most part)

331 Proclaim "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

350 "I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, and obey me.

2090 And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."

26108 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26110 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me."

26126 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26131 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26144 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26150 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26163 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26179 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

4363 When Jesus went with the proofs, he said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

713 "To alert you that you shall worship GOD, reverence Him, and obey me.

John 1421 (NIV) Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."*

As we see, this verse in the Bible aligns with the Quran (e.g. 4363)

My point If the name of the messenger is not given, I cannot distinguish which messenger said they should be obeyed -- without looking in the Quran or the Bible.

Here is which prophet said what

Prophet Muhammad 331
Prophet Jesus 350, John 1421 (this verse also aligns with the Quran e.g. 350)
Prophet Noah 26108, 26110, 713
Prophet Hood 26126, 26131
Prophet Saaleh 26144, 26150
Prophet Lot 26163
Prophet Shu?aib 26179

A common argument I hear is the position that because the Quran said we needed to obey Prophet Muhammad, that we need to follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad. I would argue that if we are going to follow the Hadith and Sunna of ONE of the prophets, that the Quran infers we must follow any existing Hadith and Sunna of the OTHER prophets as well. Otherwise, I believe we are violating the guideline ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

Peace
The reason I quoted all your post is to tell you that I agree with all of it...Great Post peace

Please allow me to add this verses

122 We have sent it down an Arabic Quran, perhaps you will comprehend.
122

123 We narrate to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you this Qur?an; and before it you were of those who were unaware.
123

The followers obeyed the Prophet by following The Quran, which was the only teachings that he received from God.

Peace

Sarat

Peace,

Obeying the messenger is often used by Sunni's and Shia's to legitimize the hadith and Sunna. Why? because according to them the Qur'an doesen't tell us to much about Mohammad (pbuh).

However, this is incredibly incorrect. Just look at the all the verses in the Qur'an that begin with "and we told you to tell them," or "Say....." etc

Who is God referring to here? Clearly it refers to Mohammad because the Qur'an is quite specific when it says that Mohammad is the Rasul'Allah (Messenger of God).

Thus to obey the messenger is to simply obey the Qur'an.

Bigmo

May peace be upon you-

rashidala - my apologies but I do not know what "daleel" means. Since you say "the" Messenger, I suspect you are talking about Muhammad.

Maybe this excerpt below will address your question?

Messengers say "Revere/obey/worship God and obey/follow me"

One of the arguments I often hear is that the Quran instructs us to obey Prophet Muhammad ? and so we must follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad.

I have a very different interpretation of the verses that tell us to obey Prophet Muhammad. I interpret this to mean that his followers should obey him during his lifetime, of which I believe the most crucial thing to obey is his recitation of the Quran. I believe that ALL of the messengers were given God?s authority to instruct their followers to OBEY THEM. If this is so, then again, selecting ONLY the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad would be in contradiction to the Quranic theme ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

Let's compare the following verses (Khalifa translations for the most part)

331 Proclaim "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

350 "I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, and obey me.

2090 And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."

26108 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26110 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me."

26126 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26131 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26144 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26150 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26163 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

26179 "You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

4363 When Jesus went with the proofs, he said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

713 "To alert you that you shall worship GOD, reverence Him, and obey me.

John 1421 (NIV) Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."*

As we see, this verse in the Bible aligns with the Quran (e.g. 4363)

My point If the name of the messenger is not given, I cannot distinguish which messenger said they should be obeyed -- without looking in the Quran or the Bible.

Here is which prophet said what

Prophet Muhammad 331
Prophet Jesus 350, John 1421 (this verse also aligns with the Quran e.g. 350)
Prophet Noah 26108, 26110, 713
Prophet Hood 26126, 26131
Prophet Saaleh 26144, 26150
Prophet Lot 26163
Prophet Shu?aib 26179

A common argument I hear is the position that because the Quran said we needed to obey Prophet Muhammad, that we need to follow the Hadith and Sunna of Prophet Muhammad. I would argue that if we are going to follow the Hadith and Sunna of ONE of the prophets, that the Quran infers we must follow any existing Hadith and Sunna of the OTHER prophets as well. Otherwise, I believe we are violating the guideline ?Make no distinctions among God's messengers?.

Samson, this is a great post. I think you should work in it a wee bit more and not use number referneces of the verses but quote the whole verses. I know its cumbersome and tedious but its worth it. You just need to put some more specifics. The whole verses must be quoted and see if there is other references in the Koran about obedience. I am trying to creat an article that answers that question about Obey God and His messenger. I am also trying to stick the Koran being sufficient and the refereneces for that along with the term " Obey "in the Koran. This is a great article you wrote. I like the way you used the Bible to prove a linguistic point. There is also some verse about Abraham being an example for us. There is also the use of "wisdom" to justify the Sunnah even if the Koran used a singular verb for both God and wisdom and not plural. I have wrote about this but can not find it.

Bigmo

"And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Qur?an, every kind of example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to anything but denying."(1789)

?We have put forth for humans, in this Qur?an, every kind of example so that they may remember?(3927).

"A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a Qur'an that makes things clear. "(151)

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear "(3669)

"A.L.R. These are the verses of the clear Book."(121)

"These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear "(262)"

These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;"(271)

"These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear."(282)

"By the Book that makes things clear,"(432, 442)

"We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from(the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (Allah)."(2434

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."(1689)

?And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe?(752)

?A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic Qur?an for people whoknow?(413)

?Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder?(6126)

"A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning),further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things) "(111)

?In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.?(12111)

"We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Nighthave We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail."(1712)
This verse is not relevant I think since it does not say anything about the Koran itself.

And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.?(697)
This verse also is talking about the signs of God but not necessarily the Koran, I think.

?And He it is Who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) ahabitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have understanding.?(69)
This does not seem to be talking about the Koran either.

?Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who reflect? (1024)
? Which revelation

Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who use their reason?(302)
? Which revelation

Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book, which is recited to them? Most surely there is a mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe?(2951)

http//marwanboustany.googlepages.com/Lesson1.pdf

Now lets look at Al Shafi's argument

Excerpt On Legal Knowledge- Al Risala

Someone asked me What is knowledge and how much should men know of it?
Shafi?i replied Legal knowledge is of two kinds one is for the general public, and no sober and mature person should be ignorant of it.
He asked For example?
replied For example, that the daily prayers are five, that men owe it to God to fast the month of Ramadan, to make the pilgrimage to the House whenever they are able, and to the legal alms in their estate; that He has prohibited usury, adultery, homicide, theft, wine, and of that sort which He has obligated men to comprehend, to perform, to pay in their property, and to abstain from He has forbidden it to them.

This kind of knowledge may be found textually in the Book of God, or may be found generally among the people of Islam. The public relates it from the preceding public and ascribes it to the Apostle of God, nobody ever questioning its ascription or its binding force upon them. It is the kind of knowledge which admits of error neither in its narrative nor in its interpretation; it is not permissible to question it.

He asked What is the second kind?
Shafi?i replied It consists of the detailed duties and rules obligatory on men, concerning which there exists neither a text in the Book of God, nor regarding most of them, a sunna. Whenever a sunna exists , it is of the kind related by few authorities, not by the public, and is subject to different interpretations arrived at by analogy.
He asked Is replied There is a third kind .
He asked Will you explain it, give its source, and state what of it is obligatory, and on whom it is binding and on whom it is not binding?
replied The public is incapable of knowing this kind of knowledge, nor can all specialists obtain it. But those who do obtain it should not all neglect it. If some can obtain it, the others are relieved of the duty ; but those who do obtain it will be rewarded.

ON THE OBLIGATION OF MAN TO ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET By Imam Al Shafi-risala

A Declaration Concerning the Duty Imposed by God, as Laid Down in His Book, To Follow the Prophet?s Sunna

Shafi?i said God has placed His Apostle? His religion, His commands and His Book?in the position made clear by Him as a distinguishing standard of His religion by imposing the duty of obedience to Him as well as prohibiting disobedience to Him. He has made His merits evident by associating belief in His Apostle with the belief in Him. For God, Blessed and Most High, said

So believe in God and His Apostles, and do not say ?Three.? Refrain; better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him. His having a son is something alien to him .

And He said

The believers are only those who have believed in God and His Apostle, and who when they are with him on some common affair do not go away until they ask his permission .

Thus prescribed that the perfect beginning of the faith, to which all other things are subordinate, shall be the belief in Him and then in His Apostle. For if a person believes only in Him, not in His Apostle, the name of the perfect faith will never apply to him until he believes in His Apostle together with Him.

So the Apostle laid down the sunna for testing the faith of every man

Malik b. Anas told us from Hilal b. Usama from Ata? b. Yasar from Umar b. al-Hakam, who said

I went to the Apostle of God with a slave-girl and I asked him ?I have taken an oath ; may I free her?? ?Where is God?? the Apostle asked her. ?In heaven,? she answered. ?And who am I?? asked he. ?You are the Apostle of God,? she answered. ?You may free her,? said.

.

And He, glorious be His praise, said

And also we have sent among you an Apostle, one of yourselves, to recite to you our signs, and purify you, to teach you the Book and the Wisdom, and to teach you what you did not know .

And He said

God bestowed a favor upon the believers when He raised up amongst them an Apostle, one of themselves, to recite His signs to them, to purify them and to teach them the Book, although they had formerly been in manifest error .

And He, glorious be His praise, said

It is He who has raised up an Apostle among the untutored people, one of their number to recite to them His signs, to purify them, and to teach them the Book and the Wisdom, though formerly they had been in manifest error .

And He said

But remember the goodness which God has shown you and how much of the Book and the Wisdom He has sent down to you to admonish you thereby .

And He said

God has sent down to thee the Book and the Wisdom, and has taught thee what thou did not know before; the bounty of God towards thee is ever great .

And He said

And call to mind the signs of God and the Wisdom which are recited in your houses; verily God is gentle, well-informed .
? Whats being recited with the Koran

So God mentioned His Book?which is the Qur?an?and Wisdom, and I have heard that those who are learned in the Quran?whom I approve?hold that Wisdom is the sunna of the Apostle of God. This is like what said; but God knows best! For the Quran is mentioned , followed by Wisdom; God mentioned His favor to mankind by teaching them the Qur?an and Wisdom. So it is not permissible for Wisdom to be called here save the sunna of the Apostle of God. For is closely linked to the Book of God, and God has imposed the duty of obedience to His Apostle, and imposed on men the obligation to obey his orders. So it is not permissible to regard anything as a duty save that set forth in the Quran and the sunna of His Apostle. For , as we have stated, prescribed that the belief in His Apostle shall be associated with the belief in Him.

The sunna of the Apostle makes evident what God meant , indicating His general and particular . He associated the Wisdom in the sunna with his Book, but made it subordinate . Never has God done this for any of His creatures save His Apostle. End of Risala quote

However Al Shafi brings this verse

And call to mind the signs of God and the Wisdom which are recited in your houses; verily God is gentle, well-informed .

What is being recited here? Does recited in Arabic uses a plural or singular? Is wisdom attached with Koran or is it something else like Shafi claim? Was the hadith being recited in people's homes along with the Koran? This is strange talk by Al Shafi. Al Shafi's arguments are not deep and persuasive. He seems to rely on convincing the lay man. How would Al Shafi answer the Koran's claim as being sufficient? Thats its clear and fully detailed? Why didn't anybody challenge him? I wonder if Shafi was supported by the Abbasid. He had to be. His argument are very vague. He seems to seperate the Koran from wisdom and then says wisdom is the Sunnah. But is the Koran and wisdom term used in this verses have singular verbs or plural. I don't see how people could be recited hadiths in their homes.

Bigmo

Al Shafi used this verse for presenting his case

{ .

And call to mind the signs of God and the Wisdom which are recited in your houses; verily God is gentle, well-informed.

Its hard to see what can be recited along the Koran. i never heard of anyone recited hadith. The word yutla(recite) does not strike me as something you can do with hadith. People had their own hadith and would recite them along with the Koran? This is weird.

Al Shafi also brought this verse

But remember the goodness which God has shown you and how much of the Book and the Wisdom He has sent down to you to admonish you thereby .

}

The Arabic says wa ya'izikum bihi and not bihima or even bihim. This is singular and not plural. That means the Book and wisdom is the same noun.

Bihima would mean two things and bihim would mean more than two but bihi is a singular.

ramzi

Salaam,

I feel that if one reads the quran with a clear mind, taking into account all the relevant verses, the conclusion that 'obeying the messenger is obeying the message he brought' will be the only conclusion. Unfortunately, our thinking is polluted with our awareness of the hadeeth and sunnah available with the sects. And also their attempts of using these verses to justify their reliance on hadeeth and sunnah as a source of Islam.

They try to split the order of 'Obey God and obey the messenger' into two separate orders. Obey God = Quran, Obey messenger = his teachings (actions, saying, etc...) found in sunnah.

I do not agree with this.... I cannot obey God without obeying the messenger. I did not / do not receive inspiration (wahy) from God, telling me His orders. Nor does God speak to me like He did to Moses. The only way I receive God's orders is through a messenger. Thus, obeying the messenger means I automatically fulfill the first requirement of the order in the verse. And indeed God says in the quran ' Whoever obeys the messenger has indeed obeyed God'.

Let's assume the order of obeying the messenger refers to 'saying/actions/teachings' not included in quran. Where is this stuff? Is it the narrations included in the books of bukhary and muslim? That have been described as the most authentic book after the book of God? The strongest pieces of work in these books can be disproved by a layman using our Criteria (Quran). Why has it been left to people to collect these teachings for generations to come? Do we have to rely on the people such as bukhary and muslim in order to fulfill God's order of 'Obey God and obey the messenger'?? Or indeed anyone else, had it been a person other than bukhary who collected the sayings of the messenger.

Is it our job to dig through millions of attributed sayings of the messenger and find out which ones are true using quran? Or did God include the relevant sayings, lessons, actions of His messengers in His book that is complete and detailed?

6 Surah Number 45, Ayah Number 6
These are the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of All?h, which We recite to you (O Muhammad ) with truth. Then in which speech after All?h and His Ay?t will they believe?

Nice posts by Samson and Bigmo above!

Regards

Ramzi