A jew & a zionist
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Were the calf-worshippers & forgers jews or zionists? Were those condemned in the quraan jews or zionists? Is there anything to choose between a sad puppy like maimonides who says islaam is like judaism, & advocates "suffering," & a zionist who wages a war for a worthless piece of land?
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Were the calf-worshippers & forgers jews or zionists? Were those condemned in the quraan jews or zionists? Is there anything to choose between a sad puppy like maimonides who says islaam is like judaism, & advocates "suffering," & a zionist who wages a war for a worthless piece of land?
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
I think the condemned in the Koran are the Pharisees and their Talmud.
Matt 2331-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"
Matt 151-3 "Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
Matt 231-5 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men."
Acts 1510-11 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
Matt 1514 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
Mark 75-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Matt 2325-26 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matt 2327-29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
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Peace,
I don't think the condemnation is directed to the Jews (in general) or the Zionists. I also disagree with the view that it is directed towards the Jewish Pharisees... Jesus never condemned the Pharisees for teaching the Mishna to the people, nor did he condemn them for preaching and enforcing the Gemarra. Rather, he condemned them for their hypocrisy, citing the commandments while not following them. This is the same thing explained in the Qur'aan, and the hypocrites are repeatedly condemned in the scriptures... Regarding the institution of Zionism, Jews are a religious national group, while Zionists are a political group. I don't think the scriptures necessarily support or condemn Zionism, as long as the followers of the movement uphold the system of pure monotheism, which many of them don't. There are plenty of Jews who support Zionism, just like there are many Jews who outrightly reject it. Either way, I think the main message was to the Jews, not specifically to the Zionists.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Okay. Towards whom is the condemnation directed?
Personally, I think it's referring to a specific group among the Jews, namely the hypocrites. That's why there are other passages about the Jews identifying them as "submitters" and monotheists. Only the idolators and hypocrites are condemned...
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A munaafiq (hypocrite) is one who conceals his disbelief, while the condemned jews were openly opposed to the messenger. These jews & christians were unabashedly claiming that one has to be a jew or a christian to be guided; this is not the "nifaaq" characteristic of christians & jews who might pose as muslims & invent new concepts. This should put their general population in the condemned bracket. A good point in case is the sad puppy maimonides. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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A munaafiq (hypocrite) is one who conceals his disbelief, while the condemned jews were openly opposed to the messenger. These jews & christians were unabashedly claiming that one has to be a jew or a christian to be guided; this is not the "nifaaq" characteristic of christians & jews who might pose as muslims & invent new concepts. This should put their general population in the condemned bracket. A good point in case is the sad puppy maimonides. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
If a prophet was to come today and confirm the Koran who would be those most oppossed to him? The Sunnis and Shias. First they would say you are saying things that is against Muhammad's teachings. the prophet would for sure confirm the Koran just like the Koran confirmed the previous scriptures. But its the hadith that would be the battle ground. They would treat this prophet as someone who is against Shariah law and is lying. Just like the Jews who considered Jesus who came to confirm the Torah as a heretic because by then the Jews created a new religion as represented by their Talmud which constitute their Shariah law.
Look how Sunnis and Shia receive us even though we follow what they claim to follow, the Koran. But between us and them is this Sunnah of theirs which dominate their religion.
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bigmo-
The quraan does not confirm this
1 Kings 11
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But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
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Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods Solomon clave unto these in love.
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And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines and his wives turned away his heart.
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For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
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For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
This filth is the invention of rejectors.
The rejectors & sectarians have invented filth which they attribute to the prophets of God. The rejectors have been condemned not just because of their talmud & other inventions, the core of them is filth.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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bigmo-
The quraan does not confirm this
This filth is the invention of rejectors.
The rejectors & sectarians have invented filth which they attribute to the prophets of God. The rejectors have been condemned not just because of their talmud & other inventions, the core of them is filth.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
2.102. They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon the blasphemers were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!
The person who narrated that in the Torah just did not understand fully what was going on. But the Koran has a Divine author who knows what was in Suleiman's heart. Sometimes its like that were people may misinterpret what they see especially when someone is in a high position like prophet Suleiman was.
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bigmo-The person who narrated that in the Torah just did not understand fully what was going on.
- The person who wrote that was a filthy liar. -)
-But the Koran has a Divine author who knows what was in Suleiman's heart.
- Yes, because the quraan, unlike that filth, came with authority.
-Sometimes its like that were people may misinterpret what they see especially when someone is in a high position like prophet Suleiman was.
- There is no simple misinterpretation. The filthy liar has turned a prophet of God into an idolator & a womanizer.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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The person who narrated that in the Torah just did not understand fully what was going on. But the Koran has a Divine author who knows what was in Suleiman's heart. Sometimes its like that were people may misinterpret what they see especially when someone is in a high position like prophet Suleiman was.
Peace
The true Torah should not make any reference to Solomon nor David...The Torah was given to Moses before Solomon and David were born...do not let thegod confuse you.
Peace -
Peace,
The true Torah should not make any reference to Solomon nor David...The Torah was given to Moses before Solomon and David were born...do not let thegod confuse you.
Exactly. The Torah doesn't say anything about David or Solomon, period.
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bigmo-The person who narrated that in the Torah just did not understand fully what was going on.
- The person who wrote that was a filthy liar. -)
-But the Koran has a Divine author who knows what was in Suleiman's heart.
- Yes, because the quraan, unlike that filth, came with authority.
-Sometimes its like that were people may misinterpret what they see especially when someone is in a high position like prophet Suleiman was.
- There is no simple misinterpretation. The filthy liar has turned a prophet of God into an idolator & a womanizer.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
I would be carefull if I was you
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.
"Say We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " 2136
"The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. " 2285
In truth We have sent the Quran to you, confirming all the previous heavenly books that were revealed before you and bearing witness to them. -- 548
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). -- 33
We reveal to you as We revealed to Noah, and the prophets after him, and as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus, Job and Jonah, Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted the Psalms unto David.
Seems pretty clear to me. Thats a long way from the "filth" you call it.
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ahmadbilal, belh-
Then u agree that "scriptures" & "prophets" have no validity? Right.
Now let us turn to "pentateuch" regarding aaron
Exodus, 3223-24
For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
This does not corroborate the version of the quraan; out goes pentateuch.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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bigmo-Seems pretty clear to me. Thats a long way from the "filth" you call it.
- What would u call the depiction of solomon as a womanizer who disobeys God, & an idolator?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
What I call it or who else calls it is no concern to me. The Torah are written records spanning hundreds of years. It spans nearly a thousand years and not 20 years or something like that like the Koran or even like the Gospel which is written records of the life of Jesus spanning a few years.
Even the Christians in the end accepted the Old testament even though many earlier Christians were against that because of the violence and legalism of the Old Testament. But the richness of information it contains made it impossible to ignore and in the end the Christian world accepted it and it became part of their Canon.
Cherry picking here and there and trying to find problematic verses in it does not take away that its a Book that kept the teachings of the prophets alive for centuries AND HAS BEEN A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION FOR MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. The Koran says
28.47. If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us an apostle? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"
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But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all (such things)!"
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Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
What more do you want? I am not sure if you really read the Old Testament. I have been reading it these days and I have received many wisdom from it. It is truly an amazing Book.
Now unlike the Koran the Gospel does NOT contain information about the previous prophets and their stories of wisdom. The Koran does and it gives the main summary of the Old Testament. So I understand why many Koranist may not be interested in it since they have the information they need about it. But to call it "filth" ain't cool.
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bigmo-What I call it or who else calls it is no concern to me.
- Why don't u simply answer & say what u would call a derogatory description of a prophet?
I have read the bible -- it is a violent & vulgar book; before u have finished reading it from cover to cover u will find it to be the same.
Aaron & solomon were not idol-makers, which is what that book has been telling millions & millions of blasphemers.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace,
Now unlike the Koran the Gospel does NOT contain information about the previous prophets and their stories of wisdom. The Koran does and it gives the main summary of the Old Testament. So I understand why many Koranist may not be interested in it since they have the information they need about it. But to call it "filth" ain't cool.
I absolutely agree. To call G-d's book "filth" is a disgraceful thing... Besides, the Torah doesn't mention Solomon at all, let alone call him a womanizer or an idol worshiper. So, I don't understand the view on this at all. The Torah outlines the laws for the children of Israel, many of which are restated in the Qur'aan. They are promoting the same system... Even though the Qur'aan does restate many of the stories mentioned in the Hebrew Tanakh, this doesn't mean we shouldn't study the Tanakh. Look at this passage in the scripture
Say, "We believe in G-d, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their L-rd. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." (2136)
This passage has a two-fold message. It's telling us that we should not only believe and make no distinction among the prophets, but it's also relaying that we should make no distinction or show no disbelief in what was sent down to them. This includes the Torah and the Injeel, as well as what was sent to the other prophets. We shouldn't make any distinction among these books. Therefore, there's absolutely nothing wrong with studying the Torah AND the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
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There is a documentary by the history channel called Who wrote the Bible. I think you can get it at veoh website. Its a good place to get a backgroung. The Old Testament can not be read the way we read the Koran. I have no problem with that. I understand the background of the Old Testament. I am fully aware of these stories including the accusation of David and adultery and murder. I am also aware of the stroy about Lot and incest. But I do not let that prevent me from accepting the Old Testament because I have a good understanding, or rather a basic understanding of the collection of the Old Testament. Its a library and not a scripture like the Koran. It is not just a theology book like the Koran. Its also history, narratives, culture, civilization and poetry. Its unique. The Koran is the literal words that God revealed to Muhamamd via the angel Gabriel and should be read as such. The Koran is a book of theology. Everyword matters from a religious perspectives.
If the Old testament is too heavy than you don't have to read it.